Once saved always saved?

[Flyonthewall]

6 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Please tell me, where does the Savior say the seed, once alive, dies?

My Bible doesn't say that.

One seed receives life and one does not.

There are those who have eternal life and those who do not.

Read the very post you responded to. It is plain as day... or can you not understand the plain and simple words of Christ?

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Jesus Christ tells us plainly what the will of the Father is for those whom He does not already know:

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

Two key words....may and will. Precisely what Mormons believe. Thanks for pointing this out. “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” What does it mean that the sow was washed? 

At some point in discussions with folks who believe OSAS,  the inevitable question comes up. A few have alluded to it here.

I was having this very discussion on my doorstep with some young adults from a local church who were canvassing our neighborhood. They were somewhat put out that I was a Mormon, and challenged me with the same  question Former is asking. They assured me that since they were saved they could not sin. 

So I asked them the question. It has to do with your understanding of “cannot sin.” Do you have an idea what it is?

 

By the way, I asked you a question about the body of Jesus a while back. I know you are engaging a lot of people, but I wondered if you had thought about it.

If we were to see him today (you say you have seen him, if I understand you correctly),

Quote

Jesus Christ tells us plainly what the will of the Father is for those whom He does not already know:

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

would he have the same body that he showed to Mary and his disciples after his resurrection? 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, Flyonthewall said:

Read the very post you responded to. It is plain as day... or can you not understand the plain and simple words of Christ?

He refuses to engage in discussion that takes all the Bible into account.  It allows him to keep focusing on his misreads of a select few verses.

[SamIam]

23 hours ago, SamIam said:

 

FormerLDS, though you have been undermined at every turn, you continue your bold assault. This will most likely be my last time for illustrating your errors in scriptural exegesis.  This time though I will reverse the process.  This will be the equivalent of a shock and awe rock - n- roll Brother Loves traveling salvation show holy convolution of the spirit aflame in glory.  Instead of using scripture as I have hithertofore done, let's look at Christian commentaries to see if we can find anyone, anyone at all that comes to your conclusions. As many have noted already you have a tendency to interpret scripture against what it "plainly says" to a personal bias.  You have given me adequate fodder for my rebuttal in first quote in this post by your definition of Hebrew's 6:6. Your entire explanation is off but to cut down on length I am just going to work with that one and show others of your own Christian forefathers do not even come close to supporting what you think you see in the bible.  As I have analyzed your responses, I have wondered if you were an acolyte of Charles Spurgeon as he quite frequently leans heavy towards the excessive expectations of OSAS. Many do but his material in some cases comes across as does yours where he wrests the scriptures so severely that one wonders if the Queens English was his first language.  However, even his commentaries on Hebrews 6 leave you standing alone under a flickering streetlamp on a cold and dreary eve.   However let's take a look at some of the most notable and a couple less notable commentaries for how other leading Christian thinkers view Hebrews 6:6.  Raise your hands, look to heaven and sway with the band and try to get the tune your Christian brothers are singing loud and clear...

For ease of comparison here are your twisting of expectations.  Not even close...

 

 Again, while I fully expect that your manifest blindness will continue to attempt to cover your errant expectations of scripture, It will be interesting to see to what extremes you will go to refute even these who are the great contributors to Christian thought. 

Let's move on to Spurgeon.  While he tries hard to circumvent a valid exegesis in his apologetic approach to OSAS he cannot do so sufficient to not properly see what it means to "crucify afresh" and he begrudingly places responsibility where is should be instead of your magnificent wranglings of the verse. 

Again lets put your comments nearby for ease in comparison.  Does this not cause you to want to restate yourself to at least be in proximity of every other commentary on your comments.  You are being indicted by a jury of your peers.

 

 

 Written in 1742, it is obvious why it took 20 years to produce his commentary, but we must be grateful to this Lutheran Greek scholar for his careful skewering of those who would exeges with the caution of an ill blown sneeze by his careful analysis of the Greek.     

Can you find boldness sufficient to question Brother John Wesley a giant of Christianity? 

Wow, are you feeling it? Are you a converted Christian yet?

And finally in simple direct fashion clearly put is the obvious explanation that should be associated with the Hebrew's verses's we are exemplifying here.  I have quoted many sources to illustrate and overwhelm digression and illustrate you are not even close in your wresting of verses. These are illustrating "what the scripture plainly says."This is no LDS rebuttal to your comments, these are the words of your Christian peers.  While we may have no sway upon your interpretations for your need to reject any LDS voice on the face of it's origin from an LDS source, will you at least acquiesce and be taught by your friends?...friend.  

 

Former, I am surprised you have not tackled this particular post.   I'm very interested in what your response will be.

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, SamIam said:

Former, I am surprised you have not tackled this particular post.   I'm very interested in what your response will be.

The answer is quite easy. All those commentators were never saved in the first place.

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The answer is quite easy. All those commentators were never saved in the first place.

 

Yes, their poor reading comprehension makes them quite unworthy of salvation.

[Anakin7]

 A response to the -  OSAS and "Imputed Righteousness" thought of many a "christian" [ FormerLDS ?, and other non LDS critics ] when in Dialogue with LDS 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm  True Grace to all.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited February 28, 2018 by Anakin7

[Meerkat]

47 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

 A response to the -  OSAS and "Imputed Righteousness" thought of many a "christian" [ FormerLDS ?, and other non LDS critics ] when in Dialogue with LDS 

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm  True Grace to all.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Hi Anakin--

I don't think the link is working.  At least I can't connect.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Meerkat

[FormerLDS]

17 hours ago, Meerkat said:

That isn't true FormerLDS, and you know it.  You have to ignore the statements of love for Christ and their fellow beings, and the life energy they have put in to responding to your statements, which you ignore making that statement.  If the Bible tells you you have eternal life, God bless you.  If the Bible and LDS theology tells me that I have eternal life on condition of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance,  baptism and enduring to the end, what difference does that make to you?  If your religion helps you love God and your fellow man more, and encourages honesty, charity and becoming a more Christ like person, great.  If our religion does the same, is that not also a good thing?  Or is it a bad thing?

Hey I'm not making this up- read it for yourself.

According to LDS theology, you have the assurance that you do not have eternal life.

[Anakin7]

    Meerkat I believe link now works, I just clicked on and link came up, sorry.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior

Edited February 28, 2018 by Anakin7

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, Flyonthewall said:

Read the very post you responded to. It is plain as day... or can you not understand the plain and simple words of Christ?

Here is the very post I responded to:

Blubell:

The parable of the sower teaches that the seed can wither and die after growing for a while, not because the seed wasn't good but because the soil wasn't what it needed to be to sustain it.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

FormerLDS:

13 hours ago, Flyonthewall said:

Please tell me, where does the Savior say the seed, once alive, dies?

My Bible doesn't say that.

One seed receives life and one does not.

There are those who have eternal life and those who do not.

Again, where does the Savior say the seed, once alive, dies?

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

20 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Jesus Christ tells us plainly what the will of the Father is for those whom He does not already know:

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

Two key words....may and will. Precisely what Mormons believe. Thanks for pointing this out. “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” What does it mean that the sow was washed? 

At some point in discussions with folks who believe OSAS,  the inevitable question comes up. A few have alluded to it here.

When the Savior said those who believe "may have eternal life", he wasn't referring to some time years later after mortality.

A few verses down in John 6:47, He reiterates this by saying "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Key words: "Hath everlasting life"

Precisely not what LDS theology teaches.

[Anakin7]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

Hi Anakin--

I don't think the link is working.  At least I can't connect.

 

27 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Here is the very post I responded to:

Blubell:

The parable of the sower teaches that the seed can wither and die after growing for a while, not because the seed wasn't good but because the soil wasn't what it needed to be to sustain it.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

FormerLDS:

Again, where does the Savior say the seed, once alive, dies?

    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/possess.htm   

Edited February 28, 2018 by Anakin7

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

When the Savior said those who believe "may have eternal life", he wasn't referring to some time years later after mortality.

A few verses down in John 6:47, He reiterates this by saying "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Key words: "Hath everlasting life"

Precisely not what LDS theology teaches.

You know, the more you emphasize this, the more I realize that I see no benefit to your theology over LDS theology.

Whether the everlasting life is received now or in the world to come, the result would be the same wouldn't it?
If LDS theology is right on this point or your theology is right on this point, those that accept Christ and follow him will receive everlasting life.

The quibble over "when" it is received strikes me as worrying about whether the pearly gates swing in or out.

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I was having this very discussion on my doorstep with some young adults from a local church who were canvassing our neighborhood. They were somewhat put out that I was a Mormon, and challenged me with the same  question Former is asking. They assured me that since they were saved they could not sin. 

So I asked them the question. It has to do with your understanding of “cannot sin.” Do you have an idea what it is?

It's very difficult to comprehend how a contextual argument could somehow overcome what the Word of God plainly says.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:8-9

What does it mean to be "born of God"?

Jesus Christ said “Ye must be born again”.    1 Peter 1:23 says "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

There is a seed that, once made alive, is "incorruptable".

We have a body of flesh that is of corruptible seed and will one day die, but those who have this new life within - eternal life - from an incorruptable seed are they who "cannot sin" because their life is incorruptible. 

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

FormerLDS:

Again, where does the Savior say the seed, once alive, dies?

If I show you the plain word of God, will you believe?  (See, I can play this game too!)

Quote

 

Luke 8:

6) And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up [i.e. "alive"], it withered away [i.e. "dies"], because it lacked moisture.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it [i.e. it was alive until the thorns chocked it and killed it]

7) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

 

Once alive, patience, endurance, and perseverance in belief are required to prevent falling away. Clear as day. 

[Anakin7]

    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm    

[Anakin7]

     

[bluebell]

21 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Please tell me, where does the Savior say the seed, once alive, dies?

My Bible doesn't say that.

One seed receives life and one does not.

There are those who have eternal life and those who do not.

If your bible has Matthew 13 in it, then it does say that.

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

 

[FormerLDS]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

By the way, I asked you a question about the body of Jesus a while back. I know you are engaging a lot of people, but I wondered if you had thought about it.

If we were to see him today (you say you have seen him, if I understand you correctly),

Quote

Jesus Christ tells us plainly what the will of the Father is for those whom He does not already know:

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

would he have the same body that he showed to Mary and his disciples after his resurrection? 

Jesus Christ said these words "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

He doesn't physically stand at the front door and knock or ring the doorbell.  I've never seen the Savior in that sense.

He said "My sheep hear my voice".  Does he have the same voice Mary and His disciples heard?

He's referring to the same physical elements.

[FormerLDS]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

14 hours ago, SamIam said:

Former, I am surprised you have not tackled this particular post.   I'm very interested in what your response will be.

The answer is quite easy. All those commentators were never saved in the first place.

Actually still reading.  I'm not a protestant, and have never of these people before.  Hey I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions right!

Thanks for sharing, just haven't really had time to read it all, but very informative.  [Their opinions doen't change how I perceive the scriptures, but good reading nonetheless.]

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Jesus Christ said these words "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

He doesn't physically stand at the front door and knock or ring the doorbell.  I've never seen the Savior in that sense.

He said "My sheep hear my voice".  Does he have the same voice Mary and His disciples heard?

He's referring to the same physical elements.

So, you have only seen in in some mystical or figurative way. Apparently you do not accept the plain meaning of John 6:40.

You still haven’t answered the question. 

If we were to see him today, if he were to come in and sup with us, would he have the same body that he showed to Mary and his disciples after his resurrection? 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

You know, the more you emphasize this, the more I realize that I see no benefit to your theology over LDS theology.

Whether the everlasting life is received now or in the world to come, the result would be the same wouldn't it?
If LDS theology is right on this point or your theology is right on this point, those that accept Christ and follow him will receive everlasting life.

The quibble over "when" it is received strikes me as worrying about whether the pearly gates swing in or out.

The Bible tells us there are "false christs".

Do you not realize the danger of a "false christ"?

The rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 left this world without having eternal life, thinking their works and their faith in the savior would somehow gain them that life.

How do you think they would answer the question "Whether the everlasting life is received now or in the world to come, the result would be the same wouldn't it?"

LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality.  It also teaches that, because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, All mankind will be resurrected.

Jesus Christ tells us we can have eternal life today, and ONLY those who have eternal life will be resurrected at the last day:

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:54

Those who do not receive eternal life during mortality will die and never see eternal life.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Here is the very post I responded to:

Blubell:

The parable of the sower teaches that the seed can wither and die after growing for a while, not because the seed wasn't good but because the soil wasn't what it needed to be to sustain it.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

FormerLDS:

Again, where does the Savior say the seed, once alive, dies?

Where does the parable ever indicate the seed was anything but living in all conditions to begin with?  But the plant that grew from the seeds sometimes died after living.  So unless you believe the seed is always a seed and never grows, the parable has several examples of the living seed dying in the wrong conditions.

" That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred,sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”"

The seed in all conditions was good, thus when it fell on good ground it grew.

It also grew (had life) on rocky ground unless  you somehow believe that dead seeds can grow.  The plant the seed grew into died, however, when the soil was not good.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

47 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The Bible tells us there are "false christs".

Do you not realize the danger of a "false christ"?

There is a world of difference between believing in a "false Christ" and and having a differing understanding of the attributes of the same Christ.
Mormons and Christians believe in the same person, the same Jesus Christ, the same person from Galilee who suffered for our sins, hung on a cross and died and rose again on the third day.
We just understand his attributes differently.
Same person, different understanding of who he is.  Much the same as non-members and members have a very different perspective on who Joseph Smith is.  Or Catholics and Christians concerning the Pope.  Same man, different beliefs.

There is only one Jesus Christ.  A difference in understanding of his attributes doesn't make the one and only Jesus Christ a false Christ.