Once saved always saved?

[Meerkat]

5 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    Still awaiting FormerLDS responses to the above response from a non LDS Christian on the OSAS  topic.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

I listened to the "not saved" podcast.  John MacArthur presented some excellent references that are persuasive in defending what I believe is a strong defense against the OSAS position.  Maybe he will consider it since it is a non LDS Christian.  I hope so.  If he is consistent with his response on this thread to our defense, he may just ignore it.    

I do have a question for you, however.  I was surprised to hear him speak of the Catholic and Jehovah's Witnesses in a judgmental manner, as opposed to him preaching Christ, and him crucified.  What were your thoughts on that?  Other than that (We don't tend to attack other faiths,) I thought his materials were excellent.

Meerkat

[Anakin7]

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I listened to the "not saved" podcast.  John MacArthur presented some excellent references that are persuasive in defending what I believe is a strong defense against the OSAS position.  Maybe he will consider it since it is a non LDS Christian.  I hope so.  If he is consistent with his response on this thread to our defense, he may just ignore it.    

I do have a question for you, however.  I was surprised to hear him speak of the Catholic and Jehovah's Witnesses in a judgmental manner, as opposed to him preaching Christ, and him crucified.  What were your thoughts on that?  Other than that (We don't tend to attack other faiths,) I thought his materials were excellent.

Meerkat

        Are you sure you don't mean Dan Corner the Evangelical Preacher who runs http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org instead ofJohn MacArthur ?. He is critical of Catholics/Jw/John MacAtrhur/LDS and others. However we stand with him on his responses to the OSAS house.

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, warrior

Edited February 25, 2018 by Anakin7

[FormerLDS]

On 2/23/2018 at 7:02 PM, JLHPROF said:

Agency is still an eternal law.
As long as we can choose to break a law we can choose to fall.  God doesn't force salvation on the wicked.

Those who sin are wicked, but those who are righteous cannot sin.

They have been born into the family of God and redeemed (inwardly renewed) of all sin and unrighteousness.

Did the Savior not tell us "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance"? 

[FormerLDS]

On 2/23/2018 at 8:36 PM, Meerkat said:

But when we are dealing with our Creator, I believe that assurance IS the same thing as having it, if we endure in faith to the end. 

If having the assurance of eternal life is the same thing as actually having eternal life then it really shouldn't be that difficult for you to produce where LDS theology states this.

As I've said many times, LDLS theology plainly states the opposite - that no one can have eternal life during mortality.

Again, please produce evidence otherwise and I'll be happy to admit that I am wrong and you are correct.

But if you cannot, then what does that say about your own beliefs with respect to what your church teaches?

[FormerLDS]

On 2/23/2018 at 10:40 PM, SamIam said:

JLHProf's analysis is a touch lacking in the manner of emphasis.  He may or may not be saying that he believes calling and election unattainable in this life.  I am unable to ascertain.  However, it seems possible that he is reading it as I do that though these to whom Peter speaks have repented and been cleansed of their sins and surely have accepted Jesus Christ, they still, as we have been saying all along have yet to achieve all that needs to be accomplished to achieve the highest gifts that Christ affords them that love him.  However, while I am willing to accept that Peter is not saying that it must occur in this life that one makes his calling and election sure, I am not willing to interpret his statement as precluding that it can occur in this life.  For review JLHPROF's comments here:

Regardless, In the church we do teach that it is possible in this life.  Reflect upon these words of Joseph Smith:

I have a multitude of quotes on this subject but I suspect this one adequate to validate that we see the potential of calling and election as a possibility for one still in the mortal state.  This is not to say it is frequent or common in any way simply that it can be.  I believe Peter's emphasis to be likewise. 

The question was never regarding "assurance" of anything.

Honesty challenge: If someone offered you a lottery ticket with only the "assurance" that it was worth a million dollars or if they offered you a million dollar stack of cash, which one would you take?  

Which would anyone in their right mind take every single time?

Isn't your eternal destiny worth more than this?

You can't have the wrong savior and the right gospel friends.

[Anakin7]

17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

If having the assurance of eternal life is the same thing as actually having eternal life then it really shouldn't be that difficult for you to produce where LDS theology states this.

As I've said many times, LDLS theology plainly states the opposite - that no one can have eternal life during mortality.

Again, please produce evidence otherwise and I'll be happy to admit that I am wrong and you are correct.

But if you cannot, then what does that say about your own beliefs with respect to what your church teaches?

     We have conditional security, not unconditional security -    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robes In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior   

 

[FormerLDS]

On 2/23/2018 at 10:59 PM, SamIam said:

I'm neither much persuaded by pithy cliches about our believing in "another Jesus".  It sounds catchy but how do you validate such a thing? My Christ, or my Jesus if you will, suffered in Gethsemane, and then died hanging on a cross. He paid a particular price for my sins.  I believe that you believe in a probable similar fashion.  It has always been interesting to me that so many of the worlds Christian religions can teach divergent materials from each other but in unison with one voice unite to denounce the LDS church.  What cause would bind them together in such a voice?  It makes little sense to me.  Nonetheless, I wish you the best of success of bringing any who know not our Lord and Savior to the highest degree of knowledge of him that you have to offer.  It is a good work to be engaged in.

Jesus Christ tells us there would be false Christs.  The apostle Paul plainly warned against "another Jesus", "another Spirit", "another gospel", "false Apostles" and "angels of light" that would appear and deceive people into believing they are truth and righteousness (2 Cor 11). 

"Eternal life" is the only test.  A false Christ can never give anyone "eternal life".  NEVER.  He can promise it.  He can "assure" it.

But a false christ can never give anyone eternal life. 

[FormerLDS]

On 2/23/2018 at 11:24 PM, SamIam said:

Well, these are great stretches of interpretation for me.  It will serve little purpose to point you back to the Scriptures in Hebrew's and ask you to reexamine them with a bit less license and turning of words but what you have done here makes them read as something entirely different from what they say.  It is unfortunate because when we do such it precludes an honest interaction and seems more an act of posturing to defend a preferred bias over obvious expectations of scripture.  Joseph Smith is stated to have made the following observation which I consider profound having observed it many times:

The word "renew" in the New Testament has to do with the new, inward man.

Hebrews 6 is saying it is impossible for those who have received the "heavenly gift" (i.e. the gift of eternal life), to re-receive it again.

Because once you receive eternal life, you are born again, have a new life within you, a new Father in Heaven and are known by the Savior in His family.

It is just as impossible to receive eternal life a second time as it would be to crucify Christ on the cross a second time.

[Anakin7]

On February 24, 2018 at 12:44 PM, Anakin7 said:

    Still awaiting FormerLDS responses to the above response from a non LDS Christian on the OSAS  topic.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

     Still waiting.

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment in His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

[FormerLDS]

On 2/23/2018 at 11:24 PM, SamIam said:

Quote

The birth here spoken of [John 3:3] was not the gift of the Holy Ghost, which was promised after baptism, but was a portion of the Spirit, which attended the preaching of the gospel by the elders of the Church. The people wondered why they had not previously understood the plain declarations of scripture, as explained by the elder, as they had read them hundreds of times. When they read the Bible it was a new book to them. This was being born again to see the kingdom of God. They were not in it, but could see it from the outside, which they could not do until the Spirit of the Lord took the veil from their eyes. It was a change of heart, but not of state; they were converted, but were yet in their sins. Although Cornelius [Acts 10] had seen an holy angel, and on the preaching of Peter the Holy Ghost was poured out upon him and his household, they were only born again to see the kingdom of God. Had they not been baptized afterwards they would not have been saved.(Joseph Smith, as reported in "Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith," by Daniel Tyler, Juvenile Instructor 27:93-94 [February 1, 1892])

For reference this is the scripture that Joseph is speaking to:

Quote

 

John 3:3-5

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

The process of coming to understand the Gospel or even Jesus Christ was and always has been predicted upon the degree of the Holy Spirit one possessed at the time of consideration, such that as he states one could read the same scriptures hundreds of times and lacking even the degree of the Holy Ghost that accompanies a conversion process would not see them clearly, not having their eyes opened to see the kingdom of God.  For the clarity of the verses we have examined in this discussion and the more than obvious patterns of each illustration of accepting Christ, but being mindful and diligent so that one might not lose what was a precious gift of understanding by bad choices, It amazes me how sometimes some prefer to stand by a bias of false interpretation to maintain the supposed opposition to another group who professes Jesus Christ and him crucified.  I do not know why you must consider us your adversaries when it should be otherwise.

In my opinion, and I don't mean this disrespectfully to anyone, I believe Joseph Smith was wrong.

Those who were saved in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Ghost, not "the Holy Ghost" as Joseph Smith states.

Read the text!  They heard the Word of God, believed and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  THEN, those who had received the Gift of the Holy Ghost were baptized.

Joseph Smith accuses others of not believing "the plain declarations of scripture", so why doesn't he??

Regarding John 3, there must be a physical birth for a physical body.  Likewise, there must be a spiritual birth for a spiritual body.

Not saying that I too didn't once believe John 3 was referring to baptism in water, but I no longer believe this because it's just not there.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  

Where do you read "water baptism" into this passage?

[Anakin7]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

In my opinion, and I don't mean this disrespectfully to anyone, I believe Joseph Smith was wrong.

Those who were saved in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Ghost, not "the Holy Ghost" as Joseph Smith states.

Read the text!  They heard the Word of God, believed and received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  THEN, those who had received the Gift of the Holy Ghost were baptized.

Joseph Smith accuses others of not believing "the plain declarations of scripture", so why doesn't he??

Regarding John 3, there must be a physical birth for a physical body.  Likewise, there must be a spiritual birth for a spiritual body.

Not saying that I too didn't once believe John 3 was referring to baptism in water, but I no longer believe this because it's just not there.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  

Where do you read "water baptism" into this passage?

    All issues regarding the necessity of Water Baptism for True Salvation from a Non LDS Christian site -    http://www.bebaptized.org

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment in His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

[FormerLDS]

On 2/24/2018 at 12:05 PM, Bernard Gui said:

And there it is, in black and white. The OSAS Get Out of Jail Free card, the unassailable  redoubt, the hidden escape panel, the ploy that trumps all opposition, the irrefutable response....

If someone says or believes he is saved but subsequently falls away, then he wasn’t really saved in the first place.

If that is true, then one can never know he has really been saved. 

Old proverb: "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig"  A pig or a dog will always do what pigs and dogs do!

What does the scripture plainly say about "knowing" if you have eternal life?

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”  1 John 5:13 

Those who have "eternal life" know they have eternal life.

So, yes, there it is in black and white and I say thank you Jesus!

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Those who sin are wicked, but those who are righteous cannot sin.

They have been born into the family of God and redeemed (inwardly renewed) of all sin and unrighteousness.

Did the Savior not tell us "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance"? 

If the sinner can become righteous, then the righteous can become a sinner.

The process of becoming righteous is not irreversible, nor does scripture claim it is.

[FormerLDS]

39 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

     Still waiting.

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment in His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Not trying to ignore you or be rude, but it would take me a year to read all of that.  Nothing personal, but I just rarely click on links people send me all of the time.

More interested in discussion of thoughts and opinions...

[FormerLDS]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If the sinner can become righteous, then the righteous can become a sinner.

The process of becoming righteous is not irreversible, nor does scripture claim it is.

If I could show you from the scripture that is not the case, would you believe?

[JLHPROF]

33 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

If I could show you from the scripture that is not the case, would you believe?

That would depend on how much wresting of the scriptures you do.
You've already misapplied many scriptures on this thread and ignored other scriptures that disagree with OSAS.



 

[Anakin7]

34 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Not trying to ignore you or be rude, but it would take me a year to read all of that.  Nothing personal, but I just rarely click on links people send me all of the time.

More interested in discussion of thoughts and opinions...

      The information responding to your thoughts on OSAS are contained therein.  The answers are there from non LDS sources, sorry you cannot make the time, it's worth it.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son of Thunder Kryptonian Warrior

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

That would depend on how much wresting of the scriptures you do.
You've already misapplied many scriptures on this thread and ignored other scriptures that disagree with OSAS.

No wrestling.  Plain and simple - if I can show you where the Bible says those who are born into God's family can never sin again would you believe the Word of God?

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Old proverb: "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig"  A pig or a dog will always do what pigs and dogs do!

What does the scripture plainly say about "knowing" if you have eternal life?

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”  1 John 5:13 

Those who have "eternal life" know they have eternal life.

So, yes, there it is in black and white and I say thank you Jesus!

Which does not refute the scriptures already cited that warn against falling away. You said that those who fall away after being saved were not really saved in the first place. We cannot know what is in another person’s heart. How can you know they were not saved? They were. Because they fell away? That’s the Get Out of Jail Free card.

There’s the other proverb that says if you call the tail of a dog a leg, the dog does not now have five legs. Calling the tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

No wrestling.  Plain and simple - if I can show you where the Bible says those who are born into God's family can never sin again would you believe the Word of God?

You would also need to address all the scriptures that say we can sin again after we are saved.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Which does not refute the scriptures already cited that warn against fallong away. You said that those who fall away after being saved were not really saved in the first place. We cannot know what is in another person’s heart. How can you know they were not saved? Because they fell away? 

It also ignores the giant elephant in the room, i.e. they believed they were saved.

[Storm Rider]

22 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

No wrestling.  Plain and simple - if I can show you where the Bible says those who are born into God's family can never sin again would you believe the Word of God?

This is typical cherry picking. You focus only on a few verses and ignore context and the rest of scripture. It allows anyone to make the Bible say anything that is desired.  Yet, it does almost nothing to impart an understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[JLHPROF]

42 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

No wrestling.  Plain and simple - if I can show you where the Bible says those who are born into God's family can never sin again would you believe the Word of God?

You've already attempted that (http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70209-once-saved-always-saved/?do=reportComment&comment=1209797110)
And your reading of that scripture in John is incorrect.

Bluebell said it best below:

 

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You would also need to address all the scriptures that say we can sin again after we are saved.

 

But you won't play that game, choosing instead to prooftext one verse with an incorrect reading.

Edited February 26, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

"Eternal life" is the only test.  A false Christ can never give anyone "eternal life".  NEVER.  He can promise it.  He can "assure" it.

Hi FormerLDS--

I believe these scriptures are some that refute the idea of OSAS:

Luke 8

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
            12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

            13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

FormerLDS, does RECEIVING the word with joy constitute being saved, in your opinion?

Using Jesus Christ's example here, if you came to a plant that had sprung up on a rock, but had eithered and died, would you be able to say "It never had life in it?"  

 

Or Jude 3 and 4

"3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
            4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is Paul talking about wolves entering the flock and saying "You are 'Saved.'  Don 't worry about commiting adultery or any other sin.  As long as you believe, you can do whatever you want to do and God will forgive, whether you repent or not.  That's because you Believed, and you are 'Saved.'   Believing is the important thing, NOT a change in behavior."

Or 1 Cor. 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
            10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
            11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
            12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Verse 12 cannot mean everything in verses 9 and 10 are permissable because a person is 'Saved.'  Verse 15 refutes that idea.

            13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
            14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
            15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Or 2 Peter 2

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

I believe the OSAS crowd can, unwittingly, fall into this category.

            19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
            20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Would you say, Former LDS, that escaping "the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" constitutes your definition of "Born Again" or "Salvation?"

            21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Why would it have been better for them not to have been "Saved?"  Could it be because they have now LOST their Salvation?

Could it be because they were better off before they became accountable because Romans 5:13 says "sin is not imputed when there is no law." When they learn they must repent and turn FROM sin, they become accountable.

            22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Does reason not tell you that Turning TO one's old ways implies turning FROM being Saved?

or Hebrews 10

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
            25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
            26 For if we sin wilfully AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

FormerLDS, will you deny that receiving the knowledge of the truth implies being "Saved?"  Sinning willfully implies not accidentally.  It implies an unrepentant state, and that AFTER being Saved.

            27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
            28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
            29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
            30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
            31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

All that and more that others have contributed, confirm that OSAS is a false doctrine. Can you fellowship with Christians who do not accept the OSAS doctrine?

Edited February 26, 2018 by Meerkat
Clarification

[pogi]

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The question was never regarding "assurance" of anything.

Honesty challenge: If someone offered you a lottery ticket with only the "assurance" that it was worth a million dollars or if they offered you a million dollar stack of cash, which one would you take?  

Which would anyone in their right mind take every single time?

Isn't your eternal destiny worth more than this?

I'd take the million dollars.  Show me the money!

Quote

You can't have the wrong savior and the right gospel friends.

It is equally true that you cannot have the right gospel and the wrong savior.  If I am not mistaken, we believe in the same four gospels. We believe in the same words from the same man.