FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, Meerkat said: Are the scriptures the words of God? If so, how do you reconcile John 3:36 with James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." And what are the implications? Was there a sacrifice made to atone for the sins of the devils?
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, smac97 said: What do you make of people who "choose" to believe in Christ, and thereafter "choose" to not believe in Him? Are they going to be saved anyway? What if they do not want to be saved? Will salvation be given to them against their will? They changed their mind Yes Too bad Yes
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, smac97 said: Please answer my questions: What do you make of people who "choose" to believe in Christ, and thereafter "choose" to not believe in Him? Are they going to be saved anyway? What if they do not want to be saved? Will salvation be given to them against their will? To answer your questions: "Can you decide to be unborn?" Well, no. But I can sever my relationship with my parents. "I mean, what if you honestly and sincerely decide that you no longer want to be the biological child of your parents?" I can't do much about biology. But as far as sociality, I have all sorts of options. I can shun my parents. Disobey them. Ignore them. Reject any gifts or bequests they may leave to me. Cut them out of my life. Thanks, -Smac See? You came up with the same answers I just gave you!
bluebell Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 Just now, FormerLDS said: They changed their mind Yes Too bad Yes So you can not have faith in Christ, not want to follow Him, not want to obey any commandments, and not love God or serve Him yet still be saved? Where does the bible teach this? 2
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Meerkat said: Are the scriptures the words of God? If so, how do you reconcile John 3:36 with James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." And what are the implications? Or 2 Peter 2:17-22 "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." How can it be better for a person to have not known the way of righteousness than to turn from it, having once received it-- if, having turned from it, a person is still saved? Depends. There are those who know Jesus Christ and are known by Jesus Christ and there are those whom the Savior does not know. Which are these?
smac97 Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: So you believe the rejected of the savior performed all of these miraculous works in the name of Jesus Christ, but they did not love God? I am not sure that these "works" were always actually "miraculous." Some may have lacked authority, and hence professed to do these things in terms of outward trappings only. On the other hand, some may well have had proper authority, and may well have performed "miraculous works," but thereafter sinned, failed to repent, failed to "{do} the will of {the} Father which is in heaven." Continuing obedience, including faith, repentance, and good works, is key. Quote They cast out demons in the name of Jesus Christ, but they did not love their neighbor? They prophesied in the name of Jesus Christ but didn't try to obey the commandments? Some did. Some perhaps lacked authority, and hence merely attempted to do such things. In any event, they failed to "{do} the will of {the} Father which is in heaven." Continuing obedience, including faith, repentance, and good works, is key. Quote They did things that no Mormon has ever done for others around them but they didn't love their neighbor? I don't know what you mean here. Quote If they didn't make it, what does that say about your odds? Salvation is not a matter of odds. It is a matter of choice. Thanks, -Smac Edited February 13, 2018 by smac97 1
smac97 Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: See? You came up with the same answers I just gave you! Please answer my questions: What do you make of people who "choose" to believe in Christ, and thereafter "choose" to not believe in Him? Are they going to be saved anyway? What if they do not want to be saved? Will salvation be given to them against their will? Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Quote What do you make of people who "choose" to believe in Christ, and thereafter "choose" to not believe in Him? Are they going to be saved anyway? What if they do not want to be saved? Will salvation be given to them against their will? They changed their mind Yes Too bad Yes Wow. Okay. Thanks for answering. But the content of the answers is . . . wow. -Smac Edited February 13, 2018 by smac97 2
JLHPROF Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, smac97 said: Please answer my questions: What do you make of people who "choose" to believe in Christ, and thereafter "choose" to not believe in Him? Are they going to be saved anyway? What if they do not want to be saved? Will salvation be given to them against their will? Thanks, -Smac 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: They changed their mind Yes Too bad Yes We need to realize that this all depends on which definition of "saved" and "salvation" is being used. None are lost but the sons of perdition. All others will receive of a level of salvation. 3
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, bluebell said: So you can not have faith in Christ, not want to follow Him, not want to obey any commandments, and not love God or serve Him yet still be saved? Where does the bible teach this? Jesus Christ said those who have eternal life "shall not come into condemnation" (John 5:24). Do you believe Him or not? John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: I am not sure that these "works" were always actually "miraculous." Some may have lacked authority, and hence professed to do these things in terms of outward trappings only. On the other hand, some may well have had proper authority, and may well have performed "miraculous works," but thereafter sinned, failed to repent, failed to "{do} the will of {the} Father which is in heaven." Continuing obedience, including faith, repentance, and good works, is key. Ok that makes perfect sense. So now your explanation is the rejected of the Savior are going to stand before God Himself and try to tell Him a lie. Good plan! Question, do you actually believe any of your theories? Really??
smac97 Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Quote What do you make of people who "choose" to believe in Christ, and thereafter "choose" to not believe in Him? Are they going to be saved anyway? What if they do not want to be saved? Will salvation be given to them against their will? Quote They changed their mind Yes Too bad Yes We need to realize that this all depends on which definition of "saved" and "salvation" is being used. None are lost but the sons of perdition. All others will receive of a level of salvation. I agree. But I was attempting to operate within what I understand to be a Calvinist / TULIP / OSAS context. But even then, I wasn't expecting to see these answers in black and white. These seem to undermine virtually all of what Christ said and did. Consider, for example, John 6: Quote 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. "Will ye also go away?" becomes a meangless question. It doesn't matter if they "went away" or stayed as a disciple of Christ. Everyone gets saved. Nobody has any choice in the matter. No wonder OSAS comes across as such an alien concept to Mormons. "Everyone gets saved" and "Nobody has any choice in the matter" are, in LDS thought, the hallmarks of the plan which we rejected in the Premortal Realm (emphases added): Quote When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the premortal spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7). We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. While we were away from Him, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so He planned a way to help us. We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Jesus Christ, who was called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27; see also Moses 4:1–4). Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2). Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. Under his proposal, our purpose in coming to earth would have been frustrated (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay [2003], 207). Thanks, -Smac 2
smac97 Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Ok that makes perfect sense. So now your explanation is the rejected of the Savior are going to stand before God Himself and try to tell Him a lie. Good plan! Nope, that's not my explanation. 3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Question, do you actually believe any of your theories? Really?? Ah, I see the civil portion of our discussion has come to a close. Thanks, -Smac
bluebell Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Jesus Christ said those who have eternal life "shall not come into condemnation" (John 5:24). Do you believe Him or not? John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. I believe Him, I just don't believe your faulty interpretation of what He said. Christ said, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me shall not come under condemnation. You said that someone who doesn't hear Christ any longer, and doesn't believing on God any longer shall gain eternal life. That's the opposite of what the verse actually teaches and that's why i think you are way out in left field. The verse is speaking in the present tense, not the past tense. It says someone who actively hearth and believeth won't come under condemnation. It does not promise or teach that those who heard but now don't and believed but now don't won't be condemned. 3
smac97 Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Was there a sacrifice made to atone for the sins of the devils? That's a very interesting question. Thanks, -Smac
snowflake Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 On 2/12/2018 at 1:05 PM, Meerkat said: Can a person take themselves out of God's hand once one believes in Jesus Christ? My opinion....No. Also.... I though everyone was "saved" in Mormonism. (Except the sons of Perdition). I know the definition of "saved" is different in EV and Catholic circles than the LDS definition. I think the term "believe" is very different in lds and EV circles too. From what I understand the LDS definiton of "believe" in this situation would be "to acknowledge something exists", the LDS believe in Jesus Christ, of course. My understanding is that to the the LDS Jesus was "the Savior". A figure that accomplished the atonement.....more distant. To the EV's, to "believe" would mean more of "placing total trust, all hope, your life and all of your love" toward Jesus, literally worshipping Him. To the EV, Jesus is "My savior , My God", more personal.
Storm Rider Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Can you decide to be unborn? I mean, what if you honestly and sincerely decide that you no longer want to be the biological child of your parents? You may want to pick and choose when to be literal, but you don't get to define definitions or apply analogies when they don't work. The "out" for Evangelicals in this logic is that when one does not exactly backslides, but goes completely over the cliff is to say, "Well, (s)he was not really born again and did not know the Lord." This is a game of semantics that you are playing and you are evading the evidence of scripture. To be a disciple of Christ is a daily - an every minute - decision and choice. Once saved always saved is not biblical and never has been. It is a doctrine of men to make the hypocrite feel good because they walked down the aisle once. The scripture is even more direct as far as your question goes - can you crawl back into your mother's womb? I always told my children to never ask the obvious - it is a sure sign of stupidity. You need to avoid this point because it has no merit.
Meerkat Posted February 13, 2018 Author Posted February 13, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Depends. There are those who know Jesus Christ and are known by Jesus Christ and there are those whom the Savior does not know. Which are these? These are they who "...have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..." Does that not describe your experience? It does mine. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 29 minutes ago, snowflake said: I though everyone was "saved" in Mormonism. (Except the sons of Perdition). I know the definition of "saved" is different in EV and Catholic circles than the LDS definition. Again, definitions matter. All are saved in Mormonism (except Perdition, which literally means lost). But not all are saved in God's kingdom. SInce traditional Christianity stops at the binary heaven and hell option, then saved is restricted to heaven, and perdition means everyone else. But that is not the Mormon theological understanding at all. 2
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 13, 2018 Popular Post Posted February 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, snowflake said: My opinion....No. Also.... I though everyone was "saved" in Mormonism. (Except the sons of Perdition). I know the definition of "saved" is different in EV and Catholic circles than the LDS definition. I think the term "believe" is very different in lds and EV circles too. From what I understand the LDS definiton of "believe" in this situation would be "to acknowledge something exists", the LDS believe in Jesus Christ, of course. My understanding is that to the the LDS Jesus was "the Savior". A figure that accomplished the atonement.....more distant. To the EV's, to "believe" would mean more of "placing total trust, all hope, your life and all of your love" toward Jesus, literally worshipping Him. To the EV, Jesus is "My savior , My God", more personal. Everyone will gain a degree of glory but not everyone will inherit eternal life. Eternal life is defined in the LDS church as being with God for eternity or having the same kind of life that He has. And no, the EV concept of God and Jesus is not more personal than the LDS believe in Him and Jesus. 5
Teancum Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 On 2/12/2018 at 1:05 PM, Meerkat said: Can a person take themselves out of God's hand once one believes in Jesus Christ? Well according to Mormon doctrine the answer is yes, D&C 20:30-34 answers this. While LDS believe that justification and even sanctification is by grace, the Church does not believe in eternal security and that a person can fall from grace. 30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; 31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. 32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; 33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; 34 Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. 1
blueglass Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, JLHPROF said: What about it? It is not playing God. Godhood is not part of that ordinance at all. When Brigham Young administered the ordinance on HC Kimball he said, "thou shalt have power to redeem thy progenitors and thou shalt have power over thy posterity and shall save all of them and bring them into thy kingdom. We also seal upon thee all the power and blessing of the Holy Resurrection even to the Eternal Godhead." I think this refers to a pronouncement of full sanctification from the blood and sins of this generation, and the promised seal of a godhead ordination in the future. Edited February 13, 2018 by blueglass
blueglass Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, clarkgoble said: I believe the moderators don't want second anointings discussed. But being anointed as something doesn't mean you are something yet. The anointing is part, just as the anointing before the endowment is not the endowment. True, the words "second anointing" are banned in lds discourse. For example in the GQ Cannon journals posted online all references to the two words are redacted. >>9 April 1877 • Monday My wife Martha received her [2 words redacted relating to a temple ordinance] at the Temple to-day. There were several others who also received the same ordinance. Very plain talk on the part of Pres. Young in the Temple to-day to Elder Taylor on the subject of his teaching. Spent the evening with the President. Bro’s. W. Woodruff, L. Snow, Brigham Jr. and myself were present. He inquired our view respecting a change of alphabet and orthography. We agreed that a change was desirable and necessary and covenanted to sustain him in his efforts to effect it. https://www.churchhistorianspress.org/george-q-cannon/1870s/1877/04-1877?lang=eng Edited February 13, 2018 by blueglass
JLHPROF Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, blueglass said: True, the words "second anointing" are banned in lds discourse. For example in the GQ Cannon journals posted online all references to the two words are redacted. >>9 April 1877 • Monday My wife Martha received her [2 words redacted relating to a temple ordinance] at the Temple to-day. There were several others who also received the same ordinance. Very plain talk on the part of Pres. Young in the Temple to-day to Elder Taylor on the subject of his teaching. Spent the evening with the President. Bro’s. W. Woodruff, L. Snow, Brigham Jr. and myself were present. He inquired our view respecting a change of alphabet and orthography. We agreed that a change was desirable and necessary and covenanted to sustain him in his efforts to effect it. https://www.churchhistorianspress.org/george-q-cannon/1870s/1877/04-1877?lang=eng Well now that's just plain silly. It's one thing to not go into details about an ordinance. It's entirely another to try and redact it from history. Not to mention pointless considering the preponderance of references. The only people who would read this would be avid students of Church history who already would know of the ordinance. Whoever this redaction was designed to keep in the dark is unlikely to be the person reading the journals to begin with. Edited February 13, 2018 by JLHPROF
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2018 Posted February 13, 2018 4 hours ago, bluebell said: I believe Him, I just don't believe your faulty interpretation of what He said. Christ said, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me shall not come under condemnation. You said that someone who doesn't hear Christ any longer, and doesn't believing on God any longer shall gain eternal life. That's the opposite of what the verse actually teaches and that's why i think you are way out in left field. The verse is speaking in the present tense, not the past tense. It says someone who actively hearth and believeth won't come under condemnation. It does not promise or teach that those who heard but now don't and believed but now don't won't be condemned. Those who have eternal life shall never come into condemnation because they are passed from death unto life; they shall never die. What did Jesus Christ plainly say? “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:25-26 Nowhere in the scriptures do we see an "unless you quit believing" passage. But there's an even greater problem with your theory. Jesus Christ told the rejected in Matthew 7 and 25 "I never knew you." How could those who once believed but have quit believing change whom the savior has known or never known? He knows you when you are born into His family though the miracle of spiritual birth and, praise the Lord, no one can ever change that!
Recommended Posts