Drinking alcohol and non-drinking companions

[RevTestament]

23 hours ago, Rain said:

On the college thread Erik brought up people who don't drink not fitting in groups of people who do drink and being judgmental. 

I'm not around drinking often.  Some is just because of where I am.  Other times it is because if people really start to get drunk then often the things being discussed make me feel uncomfortable and I leave. It is no big deal to me when people drink wine or beer etc with their meals when I am with them even if they were once LDS.

However, I've found it is actually the drinkers that are uncomfortable with me.  They will be talking with me just fine, but if they find out I don't drink they suddenly act funny, even if I reassure them that I am ok with them drinking.  They often get apologetic or defensive about drinking. If there are other people in the group they stop talking to us as much and focus on the other people.  They stop looking into our eyes. 

This isn't like our comany has changed. We may eat with them and not drink and we see nothing uncomfortable in them. However, when they find we never drink that is when the change comes.

What have you found? 

I now live in happy valley, which is pretty dry. A few years ago 2 college friends showed up on their way to Zion NP and wherever else they were going. My first 4 years of college, I was totally inactive, and drank with them. We always had a designated driver, but I would say usually no one got "drunk." However, on one occasion after we graduated, I remember most of them getting T-totaled. I consider one to be a really close friend. He went out of his way to come to my wedding. Anyway, I kind of think the purpose of the visit was to invite me to a little gathering they were planning. I said something like "Well, I don't drink anymore, but if you all are OK with that, invite me" kind of thing. After that the feel of the room totally changed. They eventually almost ran out of my house. Of course I didn't hear from them. So, anyway it was a turning point in the conversation which turned the tone and direction of the conversation, and now I almost wish I hadn't said anything. I just wanted them to know they wouldn't be inviting an old drinking buddy. One I believe still lives up in SLC. Nevertheless, it was good to see them, even if the end of their visit felt very awkward. My wife would totally not appreciate going to such a thing anyway, so I guess I just have to live with it. I don't think any of them are particularly religious, so we've drifted apart that way. My college roommate didn't drink, but he lives across the country, so it has been a very long time since we've seen each other - just telephone chats. Last time was when my grad alma mater beat our alma mater.z

Anyway, I don't think there is anything you can particularly do about those who treat non-drinkers differently. Some just view non-drinkers as party crashers, and some are OK with it. If it is just an occasional social situation I would just say "I'll just have some tonic right now" and you will usually not notice much difference.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I now live in happy valley, which is pretty dry. A few years ago 2 college friends showed up on their way to Zion NP and wherever else they were going. My first 4 years of college, I was totally inactive, and drank with them. We always had a designated driver, but I would say usually no one got "drunk." However, on one occasion after we graduated, I remember most of them getting T-totaled. I consider one to be a really close friend. He went out of his way to come to my wedding. Anyway, I kind of think the purpose of the visit was to invite me to a little gathering they were planning. I said something like "Well, I don't drink anymore, but if you all are OK with that, invite me" kind of thing. After that the feel of the room totally changed. They eventually almost ran out of my house. Of course I didn't hear from them. So, anyway it was a turning point in the conversation which turned the tone and direction of the conversation, and now I almost wish I hadn't said anything. I just wanted them to know they wouldn't be inviting an old drinking buddy. One I believe still lives up in SLC. Nevertheless, it was good to see them, even if the end of their visit felt very awkward. My wife would totally not appreciate going to such a thing anyway, so I guess I just have to live with it. I don't think any of them are particularly religious, so we've drifted apart that way. My college roommate didn't drink, but he lives across the country, so it has been a very long time since we've seen each other - just telephone chats. Last time was when my grad alma mater beat our alma mater.z

Anyway, I don't think there is anything you can particularly do about those who treat non-drinkers differently. Some just view non-drinkers as party crashers, and some are OK with it. If it is just an occasional social situation I would just say "I'll just have some tonic right now" and you will usually not notice much difference.

That's tough Rev, I relate to this. My sisters would have New Year's Eve parties etc. but me and my other sister that don't drink were never invited.

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That's tough Rev, I relate to this. My sisters would have New Year's Eve parties etc. but me and my other sister that don't drink were never invited.

Thanks Tacenda. We do get invited to wedding receptions here, but my wife stays so busy we don't ever seem to attend. I have really kind of been a social bum since moving here. I don't ever seem to quite "fit," so just stopped worrying about it. But in that sense I have not really enjoyed my life in the "Mormon bubble." Actually, I have kinda pushed back as of late... I'm just kind of the "black sheep" I guess. There always has to be one.... Although I have never been Mr Social, I was more social before moving to Utah. For awhile we lived on a very low income, so I couldn't justify some of the things I used to do though. At least my family didn't turn completely away from me.

Anyway, you are not alone Tacenda. Us non-drinkers need to throw our own parties...

[toon]

I don't know that it's necessarily a matter of being judgmental or feeling judged.

In a sense, and especially in a happy hour/after work professional setting, drinking with others often involves an implicit understanding that you're also going to let down your guard, at least a bit.  Of course, alcohol in itself does that.  It's the understanding that I'm going to open myself up on a personal level and so are you.  If someone doesn't drink, there can be the perception that the person wants you to open up but is not willing to do so himself.  I also think that it's a lot easier for an extrovert to overcome that perception than it is for someone who's more reserved.  And in professional settings, I think it's the obligation of those who drink to look beyond and challenge this perception.

Most of the groups I've been with, work or personal, are very respectful of someone who doesn't drink and won't pressure them otherwise.  But I certainly understand how someone who doesn't drink might feel uncomfortable.  That said, I think there's lots of merit to getting past this discomfort, as these settings can provide bonding, friendship, and business opportunities that you don't easily get at the office.  The other option is to be creative about seeking these opportunities in other settings.

[Amulek]

On 1/7/2018 at 10:51 AM, Rain said:

What have you found? 

When I started at my first job out of college, my manager invited me and all the other new hires that were being trained to come hang out during smoke breaks. I said I didn't smoke but that I was cool with hanging out. Everyone else was cool with it, and it turned out to be a really good decision because that's how my manager got to know me, and it's how I got to meet other people in the office and start developing friendships, learn the lay of the land with office politics, etc. 

In the intervening years, I would get invited to Happy Hours whenever the team was going out. I would go on occasion, but not religiously. On one occasion, one of my friends asked why I didn't come more often and I just said that, while I like hanging out with everyone, the reality is that you guy just really aren't as funny as you think you are when you've had a few too many drinks. He laughed at that and said I probably had a point. 

 

 

[Teancum]

On 1/7/2018 at 11:51 AM, Rain said:

On the college thread Erik brought up people who don't drink not fitting in groups of people who do drink and being judgmental. 

I'm not around drinking often.  Some is just because of where I am.  Other times it is because if people really start to get drunk then often the things being discussed make me feel uncomfortable and I leave. It is no big deal to me when people drink wine or beer etc with their meals when I am with them even if they were once LDS.

However, I've found it is actually the drinkers that are uncomfortable with me.  They will be talking with me just fine, but if they find out I don't drink they suddenly act funny, even if I reassure them that I am ok with them drinking.  They often get apologetic or defensive about drinking. If there are other people in the group they stop talking to us as much and focus on the other people.  They stop looking into our eyes. 

This isn't like our comany has changed. We may eat with them and not drink and we see nothing uncomfortable in them. However, when they find we never drink that is when the change comes.

What have you found? 

 

I have been in the business world since 1988. I run a large consulting firm now. I have been to hundreds if not thousands of events where alcohol is a major part of the events. I have never felt pressure to drink nor have I felt that people think less of me because of it.  I think had I been in my profession 20 years earlier this would have been very different.

[Rain]

9 hours ago, toon said:

I don't know that it's necessarily a matter of being judgmental or feeling judged.

In a sense, and especially in a happy hour/after work professional setting, drinking with others often involves an implicit understanding that you're also going to let down your guard, at least a bit.  Of course, alcohol in itself does that.  It's the understanding that I'm going to open myself up on a personal level and so are you.  If someone doesn't drink, there can be the perception that the person wants you to open up but is not willing to do so himself.  I also think that it's a lot easier for an extrovert to overcome that perception than it is for someone who's more reserved.  And in professional settings, I think it's the obligation of those who drink to look beyond and challenge this perception.

Most of the groups I've been with, work or personal, are very respectful of someone who doesn't drink and won't pressure them otherwise.  But I certainly understand how someone who doesn't drink might feel uncomfortable.  That said, I think there's lots of merit to getting past this discomfort, as these settings can provide bonding, friendship, and business opportunities that you don't easily get at the office.  The other option is to be creative about seeking these opportunities in other settings.

This reminds me of when we went to Italy. We took a cooking class while there. I could tell the mother and daughter who was put with my husband I were not real excited to be with us. In fact, we later found out that the mom had told the daughter she hoped she wasn't put with us.  I never found out why. 

It was one of those rare nights when my very introverted husband just sparkled. While we all cooked he described the night before, looking for shoes after his sole came off. He had us all just rolling. And the mom joined right along in making us laugh. 

Afterwards,  we all went downstairs, waited for our items to be baked and talked. Every table was given bottles of wine.  The mom didn't drink either and with the 3 of us not drinking the daughter had just a little wine.

We could not stop laughing. Other tables were looking at us to see what we were laughing at.  The daughter noticed and shouted out,  "and look! We aren't even drinking! " 

During the course of the night we found out this was probably their last trip together. The mom had been so tired and needed rest throughout. When we went up the dark stairs Rex took her arm and helped her up. The daughter walked beside me, thanking me for making the night for her mom. That night was magical for us. 

I so get the personal relationship thing. When I was RS 2nd counselor our RSP had us eating ice cream or fries or something after our visits each week. That presidency worked better together than any other presidency or committee I have been in, in part because of that personal time together. 

It's too bad that some think you need to drink to get that. 

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

I have been in the business world since 1988. I run a large consulting firm now. I have been to hundreds if not thousands of events where alcohol is a major part of the events. I have never felt pressure to drink nor have I felt that people think less of me because of it.  I think had I been in my profession 20 years earlier this would have been very different.

I've not felt pressured,  nor do I think anyone felt less of me. It seems more that they think I will think less of them. And it is not everyone, just some. 

 

[sjdawg]

I've been on both sides of this question and it is something I've often thought about.  For the first 10 years of my career I didn't go out for beers or participate in many social events with my co-workers as I didn't drink.  They all respected my decision and there was no pressure to join.  At the time I would have said that not participating was not having any impact on my career.

In the past 8 years I have been outside of the church and happily attend social gatherings outside of work and engage in social drinking.  My colleagues rarely drink to excess but they do have fun.  The social connections made during these outside have without question had a positive impact on my career.  The conversations and friendships made during the after hours socializing can't be replicated during office hours.  I deserve the promotions I have received but I don't think I would have even been considered for them if I hadn't become more social. I simply wouldn't have been on anyone's radar to the same degree.  The issue isn't whether you drink or not.  I don't believe many people care.  The issue becomes the networking opportunities you miss out on by skipping after work dinners and other events.   (the church presents some other challenges beyond drinking.  Church callings and activities often make it difficult to find the time to attend the after hours work events)

[mrmarklin]

On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:51 AM, Rain said:

On the college thread Erik brought up people who don't drink not fitting in groups of people who do drink and being judgmental. 

I'm not around drinking often.  Some is just because of where I am.  Other times it is because if people really start to get drunk then often the things being discussed make me feel uncomfortable and I leave. It is no big deal to me when people drink wine or beer etc with their meals when I am with them even if they were once LDS.

However, I've found it is actually the drinkers that are uncomfortable with me.  They will be talking with me just fine, but if they find out I don't drink they suddenly act funny, even if I reassure them that I am ok with them drinking.  They often get apologetic or defensive about drinking. If there are other people in the group they stop talking to us as much and focus on the other people.  They stop looking into our eyes. 

This isn't like our comany has changed. We may eat with them and not drink and we see nothing uncomfortable in them. However, when they find we never drink that is when the change comes.

What have you found? 

 

Growing up in California and being in business here has created this situation time and again.  I entered my profession when hard drinking at lunch was in vogue and have lived to see it not in vogue anymore.  Most people I lunch with abstain, whereas these same people would hoist a couple at lunch routinely back in the day.  Culture in general has changed.  In the eighties our office Christmas parties were drunken affairs with male strippers for the ladies (one time only!) and in one case even drunken dancing by an employee on the table!  Then everyone would drive home in their own cars!  The last party we had was far from this.  It was at a country club and everyone who wanted to have alcohol was picked up either by a Limo or a designated driver.  The days of many people becoming seriously inebriated have long passed.  Now our office Christmas parties are even more sedate because we are taking the $$$$$ we used to spend at a fancy restaurant and giving it out to the employees as a "present".  It's almost $1,000 per person!  Office Xmas party is now a teetotaling pot luck here in the office!  General consensus by employees to do it this way.  Even during the harder drinking times, I don't recall being pressed by anyone to drink alcohol.

I travel to Europe every year for my hobby interests.  In general, the people are much more into alcohol on a regular basis that here in the US.  No one in France would consider a meal complete without wine, and in Germany, with which I'm most familiar, beer is an essential ingredient of every social event.  But while my lack of alcohol consumption is remarked upon, I've never been pressed to drink at all in Europe.  Diet Coke or the equivalent is available everywhere.  In Germany in particular, where drunk driving laws are draconian, in every group there is a designated driver that does not drink.  There are even drinks that look like beer so that that person does not need to stand out in a group!  Think Apfelshorle or Bionade.  If you've never been to Germany you don't know what these drinks are most likely. 

In England, the average person drinks more alcohol than we do here in the States, but in fact, the Pub culture is on its way out.  Many Pubs are evolving into family places or upscale restaurants.

My best friends are in my monthly local hobby group and I'm the only LDS.  One guy who is a particularly close friend owns a beer and wine distributorship!  While many times beer is brought to our monthly meetings no one is ever pressed to imbibe.  Many don't.  Again, times are changing.

Obviously YMMV.

Edited January 9, 2018 by mrmarklin

[mrmarklin]

12 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I've been on both sides of this question and it is something I've often thought about.  For the first 10 years of my career I didn't go out for beers or participate in many social events with my co-workers as I didn't drink.  They all respected my decision and there was no pressure to join.  At the time I would have said that not participating was not having any impact on my career.

In the past 8 years I have been outside of the church and happily attend social gatherings outside of work and engage in social drinking.  My colleagues rarely drink to excess but they do have fun.  The social connections made during these outside have without question had a positive impact on my career.  The conversations and friendships made during the after hours socializing can't be replicated during office hours.  I deserve the promotions I have received but I don't think I would have even been considered for them if I hadn't become more social. I simply wouldn't have been on anyone's radar to the same degree.  The issue isn't whether you drink or not.  I don't believe many people care.  The issue becomes the networking opportunities you miss out on by skipping after work dinners and other events.   (the church presents some other challenges beyond drinking.  Church callings and activities often make it difficult to find the time to attend the after hours work events)

I would suggest that your advancement is based on sociality and attendance at these events, not the drinking part.

[sjdawg]

9 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I would suggest that your advancement is based on sociality and attendance at these events, not the drinking part.

I agree with that 100%

 

[Tacenda]

On 1/8/2018 at 2:34 PM, Amulek said:

When I started at my first job out of college, my manager invited me and all the other new hires that were being trained to come hang out during smoke breaks. I said I didn't smoke but that I was cool with hanging out. Everyone else was cool with it, and it turned out to be a really good decision because that's how my manager got to know me, and it's how I got to meet other people in the office and start developing friendships, learn the lay of the land with office politics, etc. 

In the intervening years, I would get invited to Happy Hours whenever the team was going out. I would go on occasion, but not religiously. On one occasion, one of my friends asked why I didn't come more often and I just said that, while I like hanging out with everyone, the reality is that you guy just really aren't as funny as you think you are when you've had a few too many drinks. He laughed at that and said I probably had a point. 

 

 

I like how you handled this Amulek! And what you told the guy about them not being as funny as they think they are when they've had a bit too much! Just think if you'd not had anything to do with them? And think how that guy might rethink over doing it on the drinks. 

I've probably let quite a few good people go by without engaging just because they drink, in my TBM days. Now that I'm not so much, I'm more open to friendshipping people like them. Just need to work on myself and how to talk to people, loner that I am. Not saying TBM's are like me, no way. That's why I probably am not a great Mormon and needed a faith crisis to wisen up. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 08/01/2018 at 10:48 AM, Five Solas said:

Do you think your choice to skip certain team events and thereby not be all in with your colleagues has any implication on your career?

Obviously, this situation can arise from more than just the culture of alcohol consumption. When I was working in Sumatra, our branch campus was awarded a contract from the provincial government to host a two-day competition. We worked hard on getting ready for this and then doubly hard over the Friday and Saturday making it happen. It was about 10pm Saturday when we were finally doing the last of the cleaning up, and our branch manager told us that he was going to duck out and get us all some dinner and a 'special treat' for all our hard work and extra effort.

I was starving by then, so when the bundles of food were opened, I tucked right in. Then I felt/sensed something odd. I didn't know what it was, but I looked up to see if anyone else was feeling it. Everyone was looking at the TV in the staff room. The branch manager had just put on our 'special treat'. Even then, it took me another 30 seconds or so to realise what I was looking at. It was my first-ever exposure to 'adult' videos.

I was dumbfounded. Every man I worked with, with one exception, was Muslim. I was the only Christian. And they all seemed pretty excited. I didn't say anything or call attention to myself, by design. Instead, I quickly scraped my food onto a spare banana leaf, wrapped it up, and went home.

When I returned to work Monday morning, my absence from this particular 'team event' had not gone unnoticed, and the reaction was cool to outright hostile. I'd clearly marked myself as not 'all in with my colleagues'. The next time our personnel director visited and checked on me, I asked for a transfer to Jakarta.  I simply couldn't keep working there after that. It definitely had an 'implication on my career' as far as that branch went.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Obviously, this situation can arise from more than just the culture of alcohol consumption. When I was working in Sumatra, our branch campus was awarded a contract from the provincial government to host a two-day competition. We worked hard on getting ready for this and then doubly hard over the Friday and Saturday making it happen. It was about 10pm Saturday when we were finally doing the last of the cleaning up, and our branch manager told us that he was going to duck out and get us all some dinner and a 'special treat' for all our hard work and extra effort.

I was starving by then, so when the bundles of food were opened, I tucked right in. Then I felt/sensed something odd. I didn't know what it was, but I looked up to see if anyone else was feeling it. Everyone was looking at the TV in the staff room. The branch manager had just put on our 'special treat'. Even then, it took me another 30 seconds or so to realise what I was looking at. It was my first-ever exposure to 'adult' videos.

I was dumbfounded. Every man I worked with, with one exception, was Muslim. I was the only Christian. And they all seemed pretty excited. I didn't say anything or call attention to myself, by design. Instead, I quickly  scraped my food onto a spare banana leaf, wrapped it up, and went home.

When I returned to work Monday morning, my absence from this particular 'team event' had not gone unnoticed, and the reaction was cool to outright hostile. I'd clearly marked myself as not 'all in with my colleagues'. The next time our personnel director visited and checked on me, I asked for a transfer to Jakarta.  I simply couldn't keep working there after that. It definitely had an 'implication on my career' as far as that branch went.

That would definitely cross a line with me as well. I don't blame you a bit for walking out. I couldn't stomach working with that group after that either. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I couldn't stomach working with that group after that either. 

That's the funny thing, Tacenda. I was surprised, but I can work with nearly anyone who maintains professional standards at work. I don't really care what people do outside of work, even though this behaviour was actually illegal. The problem was my unwillingness to be a part of the team outside of actual work commitments. When I showed that I was not willing to be 'all in', they didn't want to work with me anymore. Collegiality disappeared, and all interactions thereafter became rigid and formal, not personal or warm. I found myself socially isolated both at and outside of work. I'm really glad I had the option of transferring to another branch.

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

That's the funny thing, Tacenda. I was surprised, but I can work with nearly anyone who maintains professional standards at work. I don't really care what people do outside of work, even though this behaviour was actually illegal. The problem was my unwillingness to be a part of the team outside of actual work commitments. When I showed that I was not willing to be 'all in', they didn't want to work with me anymore. Collegiality disappeared, and all interactions thereafter became rigid and formal, not personal or warm. I found myself socially isolated both at and outside of work. I'm really glad I had the option of transferring to another branch.

I remember a job when I was single that I got at Wells Fargo bank, when it was called First Security. I worked in an office with three other women. From the first day they treated me like an outsider. I remember one of the women (she was pretty young) brought a plate of cookies and brought them around to everyone but me. It's pretty hard to miss me since there were only four total! And it didn't stop with that incident. I remember breaking out in hives and skin peeling all around my eyes and to the point that I couldn't wear any make up. So I can sure relate to your experience of having them treat you that way. Oh, and I had to quit because of them, I guess I could have hung around, but it was torture. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/8/2018 at 10:02 PM, sjdawg said:

the church presents some other challenges beyond drinking.  Church callings and activities often make it difficult to find the time to attend the after hours work events)

On the other hand, Church callings and activities provide experiences and opportunities that enhance the character and spiritual growth of the individual in ways after hours work events do not.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

On the other hand, Church callings and activities provide experiences and opportunities that enhance the character and spiritual growth of the individual in ways after hours work events do not.

This. In the days leading up to my mid-term seminar for my PhD (where my interim research was to be presented to a room full of senior academics), one of my advisers suggested that I come to her office and practise my presentation since it's normal to be nervous about speaking in front of a group. My response: 'I have no qualms about public speaking. I've given sermons in front of much larger crowds for as long as I can remember'.

This doesn't even touch on the organisational skills I've learnt in Church callings ... or time management ... or interpersonal skills ... or leadership ...

Our 12- and 13-year-old boys, for example, preside over 'teams', plan to meet their needs, minister personally, organise and hold events, teach lessons, speak in front of crowds, visit homes to solicit donations, etc.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Rain]

Interesting timing.  My husband was asked out by one of his superiors (with 20+ other people) for happy hour coming up this week.  Though isn't happy hour usually around 5 or 6?  This is at 7pm.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Interesting timing.  My husband was asked out by one of his superiors (with 20+ other people) for happy hour coming up this week.  Though isn't happy hour usually around 5 or 6?  This is at 7pm.

It used to mean afternoon drinking on the way home from work, I believe.  Apparently it got started that way in the military:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hour

Since discounts are usually offered to attract people to come when they don't usually come, perhaps afternoon drinking wasn't a usual thing at the time.

However, from what I read in wiki, it has gotten to the point of binge drinking, so laws are being passed to stop it in many areas.   And of course in other places they are allowing it as apparently it is seen as useful for the 'hospitality' industry.

The Sonic that used to be on the way to Mom's had a "happy hour" with half off drinks (nonalcoholic of course) that was probably from 2-4 though I remember it being later more like 3-5, but searching online has other Sonic's at the 2-4 time.  So it appears to be pretty generic these days.

The boss probably used "happy hour" so that there wouldn't be confusion over it being dinner rather than primarily drinks and I assume and hope snacks.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

And of course in other places they are allowing it as apparently it is seen as useful for the 'hospitality' industry.

Alcohol culture means big money for the people who sell it. The summer after my mission, I worked as a waiter in a licenced restaurant. We were trained in specific ways to push the consumption of alcohol. I can't remember the exact stat, but I think about 70-75% of the profit in this restaurant came not from food sales but from hard drinks.

[Five Solas]

On 1/8/2018 at 10:02 PM, sjdawg said:

I've been on both sides of this question and it is something I've often thought about.  For the first 10 years of my career I didn't go out for beers or participate in many social events with my co-workers as I didn't drink.  They all respected my decision and there was no pressure to join.  At the time I would have said that not participating was not having any impact on my career.

In the past 8 years I have been outside of the church and happily attend social gatherings outside of work and engage in social drinking.  My colleagues rarely drink to excess but they do have fun.  The social connections made during these outside have without question had a positive impact on my career.  The conversations and friendships made during the after hours socializing can't be replicated during office hours.  I deserve the promotions I have received but I don't think I would have even been considered for them if I hadn't become more social. I simply wouldn't have been on anyone's radar to the same degree.  The issue isn't whether you drink or not.  I don't believe many people care.  The issue becomes the networking opportunities you miss out on by skipping after work dinners and other events.   (the church presents some other challenges beyond drinking.  Church callings and activities often make it difficult to find the time to attend the after hours work events)

This mirrors my own experience to a great extent.  I too was LDS for the first ~ decade of my career, and while I sometimes attended the optional social events (and occasionally served as designated driver)--I never made it a priority.  I believed that if I just focused on my client deliverables, worked long & hard that the cosmic forces would ensure I got what I deserved and my career would take care of itself.  Suffice it to say I got stalled at the senior manager level and couldn't diagnose the problem.  I just thought certain people were against me, for whatever undisclosed reasons they had.

I had a weird thing about alcohol back then, and I'll share a story that is going to seem pretty odd to some.  Shortly after I was baptized LDS (I would have been in the second grade living in Renton WA), I was at a friend's house.  We were in his basement and he found a bottle of wine.  He proceeded to open it and pour a few drops into the bottle cap (obviously it wasn't expensive wine).  He stuck his finger in it for a taste--and wanted me to do the same.  I *knew* in my 8 year-old heart that this was wrong.  But I did it anyway.  Willfully, purposefully, wickedly.  Some of you will roll your eyes at this, but I felt incredible guilt for years afterward, a guilt that was only alleviated by doing something even worse (by LDS standards) when I was ~ 12. 

It seared into my brain that this could never happen again.  And even though I wasn't a great Latter-Day Saint, I was utterly invincible to peer pressure to try a beer or anything else alcoholic.  There was no history of alcoholism in my family, I didn't know any alcoholics, none of the usual reasons folks choose to abstain applied to me.  It was just that singular moment in the second grade that I never forgot, and probably never will.  It was six months after I became a Christian, by then in my mid 30's - that I had my first "adult beverage" (since the second grade).  A Pyramid Hefeweizen (a wheat beer) served with a little slice of lemon at Costa's Restaurant in the U-District - and I won't likely forget that either, because it was amazing.

A few months after that I changed jobs, but now my attitude was 180 degrees different.  I wanted to hang out with people after hours and get to know them.  I was still single (my inability to get a temple recommend had helped with that) and so I had plenty of time to pursue my socially inclined colleagues.  And I've built a number of enduring relationships in the decade+ since.  And has it paid off for my career?  Absolutely, my responsibilities have dramatically expanded, income and equity have followed.  But more than financial rewards, I have a lot more fun than I ever did before.  Now with a family, I don't have the same flexibility I had back when I pressed the reset button--but I still make it a point to do at least one happy hour or dinner a week.  My wife understand and encourages me.  It's an investment in people--and the return is incalculable.  

Could someone achieve all this and more while abstaining from alcohol?  I'm sure they can and do.  But could I have done so?  I think not.  I think the lesson my inner 8 year-old learned needed to be shattered, and by God's grace--it was.

--Erik

  ________________________________________________________________

When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

--John 2:9-11

 

[Jeanne]

On 1/9/2018 at 11:09 PM, Tacenda said:

I remember a job when I was single that I got at Wells Fargo bank, when it was called First Security. I worked in an office with three other women. From the first day they treated me like an outsider. I remember one of the women (she was pretty young) brought a plate of cookies and brought them around to everyone but me. It's pretty hard to miss me since there were only four total! And it didn't stop with that incident. I remember breaking out in hives and skin peeling all around my eyes and to the point that I couldn't wear any make up. So I can sure relate to your experience of having them treat you that way. Oh, and I had to quit because of them, I guess I could have hung around, but it was torture. 

How awful...!!

[mrmarklin]

5 hours ago, Five Solas said:

This mirrors my own experience to a great extent.  I too was LDS for the first ~ decade of my career, and while I sometimes attended the optional social events (and occasionally served as designated driver)--I never made it a priority.  I believed that if I just focused on my client deliverables, worked long & hard that the cosmic forces would ensure I got what I deserved and my career would take care of itself.  Suffice it to say I got stalled at the senior manager level and couldn't diagnose the problem.  I just thought certain people were against me, for whatever undisclosed reasons they had.

I had a weird thing about alcohol back then, and I'll share a story that is going to seem pretty odd to some.  Shortly after I was baptized LDS (I would have been in the second grade living in Renton WA), I was at a friend's house.  We were in his basement and he found a bottle of wine.  He proceeded to open it and pour a few drops into the bottle cap (obviously it wasn't expensive wine).  He stuck his finger in it for a taste--and wanted me to do the same.  I *knew* in my 8 year-old heart that this was wrong.  But I did it anyway.  Willfully, purposefully, wickedly.  Some of you will roll your eyes at this, but I felt incredible guilt for years afterward, a guilt that was only alleviated by doing something even worse (by LDS standards) when I was ~ 12. 

It seared into my brain that this could never happen again.  And even though I wasn't a great Latter-Day Saint, I was utterly invincible to peer pressure to try a beer or anything else alcoholic.  There was no history of alcoholism in my family, I didn't know any alcoholics, none of the usual reasons folks choose to abstain applied to me.  It was just that singular moment in the second grade that I never forgot, and probably never will.  It was six months after I became a Christian, by then in my mid 30's - that I had my first "adult beverage" (since the second grade).  A Pyramid Hefeweizen (a wheat beer) served with a little slice of lemon at Costa's Restaurant in the U-District - and I won't likely forget that either, because it was amazing.

A few months after that I changed jobs, but now my attitude was 180 degrees different.  I wanted to hang out with people after hours and get to know them.  I was still single (my inability to get a temple recommend had helped with that) and so I had plenty of time to pursue my socially inclined colleagues.  And I've built a number of enduring relationships in the decade+ since.  And has it paid off for my career?  Absolutely, my responsibilities have dramatically expanded, income and equity have followed.  But more than financial rewards, I have a lot more fun than I ever did before.  Now with a family, I don't have the same flexibility I had back when I pressed the reset button--but I still make it a point to do at least one happy hour or dinner a week.  My wife understand and encourages me.  It's an investment in people--and the return is incalculable.  

Could someone achieve all this and more while abstaining from alcohol?  I'm sure they can and do.  But could I have done so?  I think not.  I think the lesson my inner 8 year-old learned needed to be shattered, and by God's grace--it was.

--Erik

  ________________________________________________________________

When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

--John 2:9-11

 

It's a little sad IMHO that your experience when you were a kid tainted you so much.  The WOW is really not such a big deal to repent from, although many Mormons regard it as very close to a Mortal sin.  You obviously do, but it's not.  Not even worth a confession to your bishop or anyone other than the Lord.  Prior to 1930, WOW was not even a sin of any sort, just a recommendation.

It's pathetic that many don't understand that by true repentance and partaking of the Sacrament, one's sins are forgiven.  This does not apply to sins such as adultery, etc of course, since major restitution etc can be called for in the repentance process.  But WOW, by itself, requires no restitution.  It's between you and the Lord.

If violating WOW in your thirties led you down a path of non-belief that's very unfortunate.  No real reason that should have happened IMHO.