Drinking alcohol and non-drinking companions

[Rain]

On the college thread Erik brought up people who don't drink not fitting in groups of people who do drink and being judgmental. 

I'm not around drinking often.  Some is just because of where I am.  Other times it is because if people really start to get drunk then often the things being discussed make me feel uncomfortable and I leave. It is no big deal to me when people drink wine or beer etc with their meals when I am with them even if they were once LDS.

However, I've found it is actually the drinkers that are uncomfortable with me.  They will be talking with me just fine, but if they find out I don't drink they suddenly act funny, even if I reassure them that I am ok with them drinking.  They often get apologetic or defensive about drinking. If there are other people in the group they stop talking to us as much and focus on the other people.  They stop looking into our eyes. 

This isn't like our comany has changed. We may eat with them and not drink and we see nothing uncomfortable in them. However, when they find we never drink that is when the change comes.

What have you found? 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Rain

[Gray]

I haven't had any trouble that way. But I never said to the group explicitly that I don't drink. I just kept ordering Diet Cokes. No one seemed to care.

[Five Solas]

Appreciate you starting the thread, Rain.  Do drinkers and non-drinkers make each other uncomfortable in social settings?  I'd like to be able to say 'no' - but I think the honest answer is sometimes 'yes.' 

Professional services, be it accounting, legal, technical or management consulting - where teams are deployed to solve complex business problems under tight timelines - almost invariably has a drinking culture, at least to some degree.  It rarely means people are out of control (the people attracted to such vocations tend to be quite disciplined).  But it does mean that a lot of the important decisions aren't made in conference rooms 9 to 5, instead they're made over dinner and drinks after hours.  If you don't participate, either because you're excluded or you exclude yourself, you risk limiting your career.  

Now before somebody jumps in & effectively calls me a bigot for saying this (as happened on the last thread)--let me be as clear as I possibly can:  We can't afford to exclude valuable talent and opinions over the question of alcohol consumption.  I can't prevent people from opting out of a team event or happy hour--but I can at least make sure everyone's invited and that there are non-alcoholic options available (even if half the staff will use them as mixers).   And I must attract & retain the people who, regardless whether they consume adult beverages, won't self-select out of team team outings and thereby limit themselves and team cohesion.  Yes, it can be done and it is done.

It would be interesting to hear from LDS if they think adherence to the Word of Wisdom has impacted their careers adversely.  And if so, what they think business leaders can do to help them. 

And I will add that being a practicing male Muslim who will not shake hands with his female clients and colleagues has presented a larger challenge than any question of alcohol (although of course, he abstains from that too).  It was seen as a brave move on my part to hire him in the first place.  I used the alcohol example on the previous thread because I knew that example would resonate with LDS - but let us not forget it's not the only religious practice with career implication.  

--Erik

_________________________________________________

The graph on the wall
Tells the story of it all
Picture it now, see just how
The lies and deceit gained a little more power
Confidence taken in by a suntan and a grin

--Depeche Mode "Everything Counts"

[Jane_Doe]

I find that people do get freaked out with I don't order a drink.  Ordering a orange juice alleviates their anxiety.  

[Robert F. Smith]

There is nothing at all wrong with drinking in moderation on social occasions, unless (like a Nazirite, Mormon, or Muslim) one has taken a holy vow never to do so.  In fact, the typical French family having a glass of wine with dinner is apparently far more healthy than total abstinence on the one hand, or the typical American practice of getting rip-roaring drunk on the other.

The problem with alcoholics who drink and drive is no joke, and courts are far too lenient, universities far too lax in governing the excess drinking practiced by Greek social units, etc.  The argument for social cohesion may be valid, but the destructive nature of it is unconscionable.  There is nothing "adult" about "adult beverages" in such circumstances, which is really an extension of the widespread human need for recreational drug use.  We need to live with and regulate that deep-seated need, not make excuses for it.  Because, at base it is so very puerile.

[Eek!]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

On the college thread Erik brought up purple who don't drink not fitting in...

Yes.  When you are purple AND don't drink, that can be socially awkward. 

3 hours ago, Rain said:

What have you found? 

I have found that if I don't intentionally draw attention to the fact that I'm purple, nor to the fact that I don't drink, most people either don't notice or get over it pretty fast.   If I just assume that people accept me as I am, it seems like they usually do. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Eek!

[strappinglad]

In today's toxic interpersonal environment, it may become more wide spread for men and women to avoid physical contact at all and to follow the Pence rule in social situations. Take heart non-drinkers, you can always be the designated driver or at least designated taxi or Uber - caller. Now, another round of beer...and an orange soda!

[Waylon]

I personally feel very very uncomfortable going into bars or places where serving alcohol is the primary purpose.  I work in the legal industry and, unless I absolutely have no choice in the matter, I pass on all events revolving around booze.  Everyone knows I am Mormon and I don't drink and I have no interest in drinking on religious grounds, so no one tries to push on the matter.

If I am absolutely forced into going into a bar (e.g. mandatory firm event), I will sit in the corner and order a diet Coke.  However, first chance I get I am out of there.  There are some places, like bars, where one just can't feel the spirit very well . . .

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

What have you found? 

This is absolutely the case where I live. According to the latest stats, adults who abstain from alcohol in this nation run about 3%, and drinking forms an enormous part of our culture. My choice not to consume alcohol makes other people visibly nervous, sometimes agitated, and just as you've described, they gravitate away from me. In part, this may be because people just don't drink but talk about what they are drinking and what they would like to be drinking and what they drank last night and last week ... and I just don't have anything to add to that. But it happens about 95% of the time. People who don't walk away from me when I don't join in are priceless, in my eyes, and they certainly form a minority.

4 hours ago, Gray said:

I haven't had any trouble that way. But I never said to the group explicitly that I don't drink. I just kept ordering Diet Cokes. No one seemed to care.

This is not an option for me. I work in a parliament. At the end of each sitting week, we 'celebrate' with drinks in the opposition leader's office. I go to be social. Walking in the first time, the first thing said to me was, 'What do you want? This beer is very nice. What about this wine?' Etc. Literally no other choice of drinks was on offer.  There are only so many times that one can say, 'No, thank you', when offered a drink at an event called 'post-sitting drinks' without explaining himself.

Despite this, the awkwardness still reappears now and then. After the last sitting week in November, the deputy opposition leader brought in a special selection of her personal gins and various things to go with (mint, cucumber, etc.). As I walked in, she said, 'Hamba, be sure to try one of these excellent gins ... oh wait, YOU DON'T DRINK'.

Two weeks before Christmas, the opposition had lunch together at an overpriced restaurant. We all paid a fixed price for entrees, mains and dessert, but drinks were up to each individual. I tried to go Gray's route and didn't order anything alcoholic. I didn't point it out, bring it up or otherwise draw attention to myself. Twice, staff from other offices asked me if they could get me something at the bar. 'No', I said each time; 'I'm fine'. Repeatedly, people who came back from the bar with a bottle of wine attempted to pour me some.

These are all people who know that I don't drink, but apparently they found it especially vexatious that I wouldn't just join them for a little drink at a Christmas lunch. Finally, about 2/3 of the way through our meals, one sitting across from me asked, loudly, 'So, really, why won't you drink?'

I'm not sure he or anyone else liked the explanation I then gave, but in a place like this, one simply can't choose to fly under the radar.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is nothing at all wrong with drinking in moderation on social occasions, unless (like a Nazirite, Mormon, or Muslim) one has taken a holy vow never to do so.  In fact, the typical French family having a glass of wine with dinner is apparently far more healthy than total abstinence on the one hand, or the typical American practice of getting rip-roaring drunk on the other.

You're nearly ten years behind on the research, Robert. I posted the following in 2011:

  On 06/06/2011 at 4:32 AM, dirtius maximus said:

Is alcohol always harmful?

 

Contrary to popular belief, the correct answer to this question is now understood to be yes:

  Quote

It was the World Cancer Research Fund and the American Institute for Cancer Research, after analysing the major international epidemiological studies on cancer causation to an unprecedented extent, that concluded the risk of alcohol-related cancer increases with every alcoholic drink consumed.

Page 157 of the WCRF’s most recent (2007), comprehensive report says: “The evidence does not show any “safe limit of intake.” (The report is available here.)

 

Link.

  Quote

"A considerable proportion of the most common and most lethal cancers is attributable to former and current alcohol consumption," concludes a large European study published online April 8 in BMJ.

...

Risk Increases With Every Drink

"The cancer risk increases with every drink, so even moderate amounts of alcohol — such as a small drink each day — increases the risk of these cancers," according to a press release from Cancer Research UK, which cosponsors the ongoing EPIC study, along with several European agencies.

"Many people just don't know that drinking alcohol can increase their cancer risk," said Sara Hiom, director of health information at Cancer Research UK.

"Cutting back on alcohol is one of the most important ways of lowering your cancer risk," along with not smoking and maintaining a healthy bodyweight, she said.

The researchers touch on this point in their discussion. They refer back to studies that have shown a beneficial effect of alcohol on death from cardiovascular disease, especially coronary heart disease and ischemic stroke, which have in the past led to recommendations to enjoy a drink to benefit the heart.

But they point out that "even though light to moderate alcohol consumption might decrease the risk for cardiovascular disease, and mortality, the net effect is harmful."

"Thus, alcohol consumption should not be recommended to prevent cardiovascular disease or all-cause mortality," they write.

No Sensible Limit

The researchers also emphasize that this latest study, in addition to several others, shows that "there is no sensible limit below which the risk of cancer is decreased."

Link.

In addition, the American Government has finally caught up with this leading-edge research. From the CDC:

Quote

The risk of these harms increases with the amount of alcohol you drink. For some conditions, like some cancers, the risk increases even at very low levels of alcohol consumption (less than1 drink) ... The Guidelines also do not recommend that individuals who do not drink alcohol start drinking for any reason.

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

I haven't had any trouble that way. But I never said to the group explicitly that I don't drink. I just kept ordering Diet Cokes. No one seemed to care.

You haven't run into people who insist you have a drink with them, to apparently prove your buddy-buddy status?

But I agree, and my wife and I do the same thing as you.  But the subject comes up from time to time  when one of those who doesn't know the score asks why we're not drinking booze.  "We don't drink," is sometimes not enough for them, so then we tell them why.  It usually doesn't turn into an issue, but I've occasionally seen the same thing Rain reports .

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

n the college thread Erik brought up purple who don't drink not fitting in groups of people who do drink and being judgmental. 

I'm not around drinking often.  Some is just because of where I am.  Other times it is because if people really start to get drunk then often the things being discussed make me feel uncomfortable and I leave. It is no big deal to me when people drink wine or beer etc with their meals when I am with them even if they were once LDS.

However, I've found it is actually the drinkers that are uncomfortable with me.  They will be talking with me just fine, but if they find out I don't drink they suddenly act funny, even if I reassure them that I am ok with them drinking.  They often get apologetic or defensive about drinking. If there are other people in the group they stop talking to us as much and focus on the other people.  They stop looking into our eyes. 

This isn't like our comany has changed. We may eat with them and not drink and we see nothing uncomfortable in them. However, when they find we never drink that is when the change comes.

What have you found? 

 

When I joined the US Army back in 1975 there was a big culture around drinking, cussing, smoking and the like. It didn't seem to be much of an issue when I just let the rest go get drunk and I didn't, even in Basic Training. But when I told them that I never drank, I did get a little of what you report.  One guys in the barracks gave me the nickname "Preacher", even though I never preached (except by example, I guess).  As for the cussing, I did get guys apologizing once in awhile for saying bad words.  

Edited January 7, 2018 by Stargazer

[Duncan]

I have a specially made bath tub, it has three taps, hot, cold and vodka Just kidding!

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Appreciate you starting the thread, Rain.  Do drinkers and non-drinkers make each other uncomfortable in social settings?  I'd like to be able to say 'no' - but I think the honest answer is sometimes 'yes.' 

Professional services, be it accounting, legal, technical or management consulting - where teams are deployed to solve complex business problems under tight timelines - almost invariably has a drinking culture, at least to some degree.  It rarely means people are out of control (the people attracted to such vocations tend to be quite disciplined).  But it does mean that a lot of the important decisions aren't made in conference rooms 9 to 5, instead they're made over dinner and drinks after hours.  If you don't participate, either because you're excluded or you exclude yourself, you risk limiting your career.  

Now before somebody jumps in & effectively calls me a bigot for saying this (as happened on the last thread)--let me be as clear as I possibly can:  We can't afford to exclude valuable talent and opinions over the question of alcohol consumption.  I can't prevent people from opting out of a team event or happy hour--but I can at least make sure everyone's invited and that there are non-alcoholic options available (even if half the staff will use them as mixers).   And I must attract & retain the people who, regardless whether they consume adult beverages, won't self-select out of team team outings and thereby limit themselves and team cohesion.  Yes, it can be done and it is done.

It would be interesting to hear from LDS if they think adherence to the Word of Wisdom has impacted their careers adversely.  And if so, what they think business leaders can do to help them. 

And I will add that being a practicing male Muslim who will not shake hands with his female clients and colleagues has presented a larger challenge than any question of alcohol (although of course, he abstains from that too).  It was seen as a brave move on my part to hire him in the first place.  I used the alcohol example on the previous thread because I knew that example would resonate with LDS - but let us not forget it's not the only religious practice with career implication.  

--Erik

_________________________________________________

The graph on the wall
Tells the story of it all
Picture it now, see just how
The lies and deceit gained a little more power
Confidence taken in by a suntan and a grin

--Depeche Mode "Everything Counts"

In answer to your question bolded above, I don't think adherence to the Word of Wisdom would normally impact anyone's career adversely, unless:

• their boss was a total bigot
• their fellow employees were bigots
• the LDS person involved was a real jerk about the WoW.

So, it could happen, but for that matter it could happen to anyone who had certain principles that others found objectionable.  For example, Vice President Mike Pence won't meet alone with a woman without his wife present, for what I would consider good reason, yet there are people who excoriate him for it -- this is something that might cause a problem in employment under some circumstances.  

We used to have a poster here going by the moniker 44Foxtrot, who was a former Mormon who was really a jerk in many ways, but one of his admitted policies as a business owner was that he would only very reluctantly hire religious people of any stripe, and if he did they had to walk a very fine line or else it would be out-ya-go.  Why?  Because his business dealt with science and he believed that religious people couldn't be good scientists because they believed in something unscientific, namely the existence of God.  

So as you say it isn't just LDS who may be impacted by something they believe and practice.

By the way, good on you for hiring a Muslim regardless of his little foible about shaking hands with females.  If he's otherwise qualified, shows up for work and does his job competently, and doesn't force people to accommodate him unduly, then I don't see a problem. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

Yes.  When you are purple AND don't drink, that can be socially awkward. 

I have found that if I don't intentionally draw attention to the fact that I'm purple, nor to the fact that I don't drink, most people either don't notice or get over it pretty fast.   If I just assume that people accept me as I am, it seems like they usually do. 

Yeah, and I was going to make a joke about that purple thing, too, but decided I'd let someone else do it for me.  And you came through beautifully!  

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

I haven't had any trouble that way. But I never said to the group explicitly that I don't drink. I just kept ordering Diet Cokes. No one seemed to care.

Many times that is how it is for me, but sometimes it gets complicated since I am diabetic and avoid drinking carbs, and avoid drinking caffeinated beverages because I found that just cutting those out improved my kidney function by a great deal. So when I only drink water it is noticed more.

Also, it just becomes part of the conversation. One thing leads to another, and as someone said, if the topic becomes drinking, as it often does, then it comes out that I don't drink.  

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

Many times that is how it is for me, but sometimes it gets complicated since I am diabetic and avoid drinking carbs, and avoid drinking caffeinated beverages because I found that just cutting those out improved my kidney function by a great deal. So when I only drink water it is noticed more.

Also, it just becomes part of the conversation. One thing leads to another, and as someone said, if the topic becomes drinking, as it often does, then it comes out that I don't drink.  

Try fizzy water, it tastes better -- or at least it does to me.  

[Scott Lloyd]

Early on in my career, I worked for a newspaper where a handful of our newsroom staff consisted of people like me, professionals in our 20s, not long out of college, single, transplants to the community. Because of what we had in common, we gravitated toward one another socially and not only ate lunch out together almost every day but got together on a group basis after hours. Our group had Mormons, non-Mormons, lapsed Mormons, drinkers, non-drinkers. It didn’t really matter; all were welcome in our group. There was even a young married couple, maybe two.

Not long before Christmas one year, we got together at the apartment of one of us. One of the guys brought cognac. As a joke, I made a pretense of being on the verge of sipping from a cup of it. One of the drinkers in the group called out, “Church police! Step away from the cognac!”

We all had a good laugh. There was an undercurrent of good fellowship. We had our differences, but we understood one another to the point that no one there was about to let me do anything in violation of my principles, even in jest. 

Would that all workplace social environments could be like that. 

Incidentally. I need to point out that the issue on the other thread was the matter of a job applicant’s having enrolled in a religious school having it weighted against him because of a potential employer’s automatic presumption that the applicant wouldn’t make a good “cultural fit” in the company. That strikes me as unethical at best and perhaps even illegal. 

[Eek!]

44 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, and I was going to make a joke about that purple thing, too, but decided I'd let someone else do it for me.  And you came through beautifully!  

Thank you sir!  The opportunity doesn't come along very often, so I appreciate you giving me a turn at-bat when it did. 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

[to Gray] You haven't run into people who insist you have a drink with them, to apparently prove your buddy-buddy status?

Obviously I'm not Gray, but I've never had that happen.  Don't think I've ever been offered a drink out of anything other than friendship; or at least if there was some "prove you're my buddy" implication, it went over my head. 

In fact once in my late teens I was out with my buddies, all of whom drank, and I pretended to take a drink.  I still remember the look on their faces - they were shocked and horrified.   One or two of them tried to stop me, and I think the others would have too except I had caught them off guard and they were too stunned.  Of course they laughed with me afterwards, but inside I was really touched by how much they cared about me.  They didn't want me to go against my code, even though it was totally different from their code. 

 

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Thank you sir!  The opportunity doesn't come along very often, so I appreciate you giving me a turn at-bat when it did. 

Obviously I'm not Gray, but I've never had that happen.  Don't think I've ever been offered a drink out of anything other than friendship; or at least if there was some "prove you're my buddy" implication, it went over my head. 

In fact once in my late teens I was out with my buddies, all of whom drank, and I pretended to take a drink.  I still remember the look on their faces - they were shocked and horrified.   One or two of them tried to stop me, and I think the others would have too except I had caught them off guard and they were too stunned.  Of course they laughed with me afterwards, but inside I was really touched by how much they cared about me.  They didn't want me to go against my code, even though it was totally different from their code. 

 

In truth, the thing about drinking to prove sociality has happened to me only once, about 50+ years.  In this one case, he kept insisting upon it, getting apparently more and more upset at my refusal.  Finally, when he determined he wasn't going to get his way, he relented and all was well.  I think my implacability at his demands caused him genuine wonder.

[Hamba Tuhan]

28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As a joke, I made a pretense of being on the verge of sipping from a cup of it. One of the drinkers in the group called out, “Church police! Step away from the cognac!”

...

Would that all workplace social environments could be like that. 

 

25 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Don't think I've ever been offered a drink out of anything other than friendship; or at least if there was some "prove you're my buddy" implication, it went over my head. 

In fact once in my late teens I was out with my buddies, all of whom drank, and I pretended to take a drink.  I still remember the look on their faces - they were shocked and horrified.

The two of you have been fortunate, indeed.

As a PhD student (and president of the postgraduate student association), I was host at a student event one evening on campus when another PhD student, frustrated that I was the only one in the room not drinking, moved from insisting that I join in to actually physically forcing a glass to my lips whilst gripping the back of my head. Not pleasant.

And my main supervisor during the entire period that I worked at the university repeatedly tried to manipulate me into drinking with him, using mockery on many occasions. He used to ask me, 'What is it going to take to get you to start drinking?' during meet-ups in his office. Not cool. At the final Christmas lunch that I attended with him, he greeted me as I walked in the room by pointing out the table with the 'little boy drinks' on it. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Appreciate you starting the thread, Rain.  Do drinkers and non-drinkers make each other uncomfortable in social settings?  I'd like to be able to say 'no' - but I think the honest answer is sometimes 'yes.' 

Professional services, be it accounting, legal, technical or management consulting - where teams are deployed to solve complex business problems under tight timelines - almost invariably has a drinking culture, at least to some degree.  It rarely means people are out of control (the people attracted to such vocations tend to be quite disciplined).  But it does mean that a lot of the important decisions aren't made in conference rooms 9 to 5, instead they're made over dinner and drinks after hours.  If you don't participate, either because you're excluded or you exclude yourself, you risk limiting your career.  

Now before somebody jumps in & effectively calls me a bigot for saying this (as happened on the last thread)--let me be as clear as I possibly can:  We can't afford to exclude valuable talent and opinions over the question of alcohol consumption.  I can't prevent people from opting out of a team event or happy hour--but I can at least make sure everyone's invited and that there are non-alcoholic options available (even if half the staff will use them as mixers).   And I must attract & retain the people who, regardless whether they consume adult beverages, won't self-select out of team team outings and thereby limit themselves and team cohesion.  Yes, it can be done and it is done.

It would be interesting to hear from LDS if they think adherence to the Word of Wisdom has impacted their careers adversely.  And if so, what they think business leaders can do to help them. 

And I will add that being a practicing male Muslim who will not shake hands with his female clients and colleagues has presented a larger challenge than any question of alcohol (although of course, he abstains from that too).  It was seen as a brave move on my part to hire him in the first place.  I used the alcohol example on the previous thread because I knew that example would resonate with LDS - but let us not forget it's not the only religious practice with career implication.  

--Erik

_________________________________________________

The graph on the wall
Tells the story of it all
Picture it now, see just how
The lies and deceit gained a little more power
Confidence taken in by a suntan and a grin

--Depeche Mode "Everything Counts"

I do find it is wise to be aware of things like this and to be aware of cultural differences a boss may run into when choosing someone to be a part of the team. I think a wise boss will also get to understand a person before making judgments like "this person won't fit because the went to a " religious school or party school etc.

I asked my husband if he felt this has impacted his career adversely. He is an engineer at a company with 40,000 employees, branches all over the world and works about 8 weeks per year in France and the Netherlands. Many of his coworkers here are from other countries.  Four years ago he left a company with about 20 employees in Utah, though less than half at sometimes were lds and at other times it was only him and one other person.  

He said he felt his career was actually positively impacted by not drinking.  He felt he gained more respect as an employee. 

At one time his boss was going to lunch several times a month with the people under him. Rex would turn down the offer to go.  I was worried about this for the reasons you have mentioned.  One time Rex finally told him that for lunch her usually takes only 15 minutes or sits at his desk and eats while he works.  That he wanted to spend time with his family so he felt it was more important to work harder and through lunch and get more done so he could go home. This made all the difference to his boss.  Communication was the key here for so that not socializing or drinking didn't have a negative impact.

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

41 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

The two of you have been fortunate, indeed.

As a PhD student (and president of the postgraduate student association), I was host at a student event one evening on campus when another PhD student, frustrated that I was the only one in the room not drinking, moved from insisting that I join in to actually physically forcing a glass to my lips whilst gripping the back of my head. Not pleasant.

And my main supervisor during the entire period that I worked at the university repeatedly tried to manipulate me into drinking with him, using mockery on many occasions. He used to ask me, 'What is it going to take to get you to start drinking?' during meet-ups in his office. Not cool. At the final Christmas lunch that I attended with him, he greeted me as I walked in the room by pointing out the table with the 'little boy drinks' on it. 

Some of this stuff seems to me like it might be legally actionable as harassment, if not in your country, in the United States. 

[kiwi57]

42 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

The two of you have been fortunate, indeed.

As a PhD student (and president of the postgraduate student association), I was host at a student event one evening on campus when another PhD student, frustrated that I was the only one in the room not drinking, moved from insisting that I join in to actually physically forcing a glass to my lips whilst gripping the back of my head. Not pleasant.

A punch in the nose has been found to calm such people down.

42 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And my main supervisor during the entire period that I worked at the university repeatedly tried to manipulate me into drinking with him, using mockery on many occasions. He used to ask me, 'What is it going to take to get you to start drinking?' during meet-ups in his office.

An answer like "What is it going to take for you to grasp that I'm not going to" might work, although given the power imbalance, I can understand why you wouldn't.

42 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not cool. At the final Christmas lunch that I attended with him, he greeted me as I walked in the room by pointing out the table with the 'little boy drinks' on it. 

I might have pointed to the other table and loudly asked if that was where the "overbearing bullies' drinks" were.

[kiwi57]

5 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Appreciate you starting the thread, Rain.  Do drinkers and non-drinkers make each other uncomfortable in social settings?  I'd like to be able to say 'no' - but I think the honest answer is sometimes 'yes.' 

Professional services, be it accounting, legal, technical or management consulting - where teams are deployed to solve complex business problems under tight timelines - almost invariably has a drinking culture, at least to some degree.  It rarely means people are out of control (the people attracted to such vocations tend to be quite disciplined).  But it does mean that a lot of the important decisions aren't made in conference rooms 9 to 5, instead they're made over dinner and drinks after hours.  If you don't participate, either because you're excluded or you exclude yourself, you risk limiting your career.  

Now before somebody jumps in & effectively calls me a bigot for saying this (as happened on the last thread)--let me be as clear as I possibly can:  We can't afford to exclude valuable talent and opinions over the question of alcohol consumption.  I can't prevent people from opting out of a team event or happy hour--but I can at least make sure everyone's invited and that there are non-alcoholic options available (even if half the staff will use them as mixers).   And I must attract & retain the people who, regardless whether they consume adult beverages, won't self-select out of team team outings and thereby limit themselves and team cohesion.  Yes, it can be done and it is done.

It would be interesting to hear from LDS if they think adherence to the Word of Wisdom has impacted their careers adversely.  And if so, what they think business leaders can do to help them. 

And I will add that being a practicing male Muslim who will not shake hands with his female clients and colleagues has presented a larger challenge than any question of alcohol (although of course, he abstains from that too).  It was seen as a brave move on my part to hire him in the first place.  I used the alcohol example on the previous thread because I knew that example would resonate with LDS - but let us not forget it's not the only religious practice with career implication.  

--Erik

_________________________________________________

The graph on the wall
Tells the story of it all
Picture it now, see just how
The lies and deceit gained a little more power
Confidence taken in by a suntan and a grin

--Depeche Mode "Everything Counts"

It hasn't impacted my career. But then, I've never had a boss who was so idiotic as to assume that "team cohesion" depended upon communal elbow-bending.