Hamba Tuhan Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Some of this stuff seems to me like it might be legally actionable as harassment, if not in your country, in the United States. 3 minutes ago, kiwi57 said: An answer like "What is it going to take for you to grasp that I'm not going to" might work, although given the power imbalance, I can understand why you wouldn't. I might have pointed to the other table and loudly asked if that was where the "overbearing bullies' drinks" were. Yeah, not when one is a casual employee. In a perfect world, it would be otherwise, but we don't live in a perfect world. Quote A punch in the nose has been found to calm such people down. Yes, a few people jumped to my rescue and helped with the physical restraint.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: ....................................................................... These are all people who know that I don't drink, but apparently they found it especially vexatious that I wouldn't just join them for a little drink at a Christmas lunch. Finally, about 2/3 of the way through our meals, one sitting across from me asked, loudly, 'So, really, why won't you drink?' I'm not sure he or anyone else liked the explanation I then gave, but in a place like this, one simply can't choose to fly under the radar. I have never found that to be a problem. My fellow Marines drank a lot of beer, wine, etc., and some of them even exhibited Delirium Tremens at age 18 (very rare), but they knew I was a Mormon and did not expect me to drink. Moreover, I didn't go the bars with them, where they sometimes got into fights, got injured, etc. In my opinion, that had a deleterious effect on their combat readiness, and I never saw that sort of ignorant behavior among Israeli troops (I lived in Israel 4 years). When the USMC sponsored "Beer Busts," they always had plenty of soft drinks available in the ice chests. The officers simply didn't drink that much booze, not wanting to look like fools in front of their men, perhaps. To my way of thinking, drinking to excess is infantile. 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I have never found that to be a problem. Again, you have been very fortunate. Though we should also remember that the US has a long history of societal opposition to the consumption of alcohol. This has resulted, it would seem, in a culture that not only tolerates but often caters to non-drinkers. When I lived in the US, I could go to a pub or licenced restaurant and get a nice drink that didn't involve alcohol. That simply doesn't work here. If you're in a pub, you either drink alcohol or a soft drink that is available only because it's a mixer. When I worked at the uni, the typical was to provide one or two jugs of warm orange juice for any pregnant women (or Muslims or Saints, though they never would have thought in those terms). The ONLY reason we started having a 'little boys table' of drinks at our Christmas lunches was because I complained loudly over the course of many years to the admin of the research school, and even then I never felt like I could complain on my own behalf but instead did in on behalf of our Muslim students ... who their first year were always bewildered to walk into a room flowing with alcohol and nothing else. Edited January 7, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 3
Five Solas Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Waylon said: I personally feel very very uncomfortable going into bars or places where serving alcohol is the primary purpose. I work in the legal industry and, unless I absolutely have no choice in the matter, I pass on all events revolving around booze. Everyone knows I am Mormon and I don't drink and I have no interest in drinking on religious grounds, so no one tries to push on the matter. If I am absolutely forced into going into a bar (e.g. mandatory firm event), I will sit in the corner and order a diet Coke. However, first chance I get I am out of there. There are some places, like bars, where one just can't feel the spirit very well . . . Appreciate you sharing this, Waylon. I think it illustrates my earlier point. Do you think your choice to skip certain team events and thereby not be all in with your colleagues has any implication on your career? And if so - do you see an unavoidable trade-off between "feeling the spirit" and career success? Expound on this, if you kindly would. --Erik
Glenn101 Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 7 hours ago, Rain said: On the college thread Erik brought up people who don't drink not fitting in groups of people who do drink and being judgmental. I'm not around drinking often. Some is just because of where I am. Other times it is because if people really start to get drunk then often the things being discussed make me feel uncomfortable and I leave. It is no big deal to me when people drink wine or beer etc with their meals when I am with them even if they were once LDS. However, I've found it is actually the drinkers that are uncomfortable with me. They will be talking with me just fine, but if they find out I don't drink they suddenly act funny, even if I reassure them that I am ok with them drinking. They often get apologetic or defensive about drinking. If there are other people in the group they stop talking to us as much and focus on the other people. They stop looking into our eyes. This isn't like our comany has changed. We may eat with them and not drink and we see nothing uncomfortable in them. However, when they find we never drink that is when the change comes. What have you found? In my experience the drinkers were unabashed by my presence. Of course that was many years ago when I was a young and callow fellow in the Navy. Those drinkers who had become friends also would often take me along on their drinking excursions because they knew that in the end there would be at least one person that could guide them more or less safely back to the ship. Glenn 1
Calm Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Try fizzy water, it tastes better -- or at least it does to me. They can even put a lemon in it.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You're nearly ten years behind on the research, Robert. I posted the following in 2011: Quote Is alcohol always harmful? Contrary to popular belief, the correct answer to this question is now understood to be yes: Quote It was the World Cancer Research Fund and the American Institute for Cancer Research, after analysing the major international epidemiological studies on cancer causation to an unprecedented extent, that concluded the risk of alcohol-related cancer increases with every alcoholic drink consumed. Page 157 of the WCRF’s most recent (2007), comprehensive report says: “The evidence does not show any “safe limit of intake.” (The report is available here.) ......................................................... In addition, the American Government has finally caught up with this leading-edge research. From the CDC: I have long been aware of such research, including the carcinogenic effect of alcohol on the body (which people cannot believe when told). However, I do not believe that the net effect of having one glass of wine with supper is so dangerous that it outweighs all other considerations -- which is what the reports you cite purport to say. The extraordinary longevity of the French, for example, belies such claims. They simply do not have the obesity and cardiovascular disease problems we have in the USA. Simply put, they have a lifestyle advantage over us as Americans. However, it may well be that their longevity advantage is not greater than among Mormons, but I would like to see the specific figures -- if available -- because I know that Mormons in Utah (for example) do have problems with obesity and cardiovascular disease. Cf. Anthony P. Polednak, Racial and Ethnic Differences in Disease (OUP, 1989), 156, online at https://books.google.com/books/about/Racial_and_Ethnic_Differences_in_Disease.html?id=UqDI9-1_QtYC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false . Scott A. Johnson, The Word of Wisdom: Discovering the LDS Code of Health (Springville: Cedar Fort, 2013), online at https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Word_of_Wisdom_Discovering_the_LDS_C.html?id=BYBy8sE2L9IC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false . Janny Scott, “Life Style of Mormons Cuts Risk of Death,” LATimes, Dec 6, 1989, online at http://articles.latimes.com/1989-12-06/news/mn-72_1_life-expectancy . Anneli Rufus, “Live a Longer Life: 15 Signs,” DailyBeast, online at http://gosset.wharton.upenn.edu/mortality/live_a_longer_live_daily_beast.html . ##8 & 9, citing Ray M. Merrill (2004): “Life expectancy among LDS and non-LDS in Utah.” Demographic Research 10(3), 61-82. P. Nelson, “Life expectancy of Mormons exceeds general population,” DeseretNews, April 14, 2010, online at https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700024438/Life-expectancy-of-Mormons-exceeds-general-population.html , and at https://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=10378579 .
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Five Solas said: Appreciate you sharing this, Waylon. I think it illustrates my earlier point. Do you think your choice to skip certain team events and thereby not be all in with your colleagues has any implication on your career? And if so - do you see an unavoidable trade-off between "feeling the spirit" and career success? Expound on this, if you kindly would. --Erik Yeh, the Asian attitude toward the "team" is almost incestuous and very foreign to my way of thinking. I like diversity and cross-fertilization of ideas, and I noticed that the Jews in Israel were very comfortable with the fact that I was not Jewish, and yet was an integral part of the kibbutz. I believe that tight groups should include very different sorts of people, whether they are research units, combat units, or social units, and that this makes them far more effective in the long run. Vive la difference!! Edited January 8, 2018 by Robert F. Smith
Waylon Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Five Solas said: Appreciate you sharing this, Waylon. I think it illustrates my earlier point. Do you think your choice to skip certain team events and thereby not be all in with your colleagues has any implication on your career? And if so - do you see an unavoidable trade-off between "feeling the spirit" and career success? Expound on this, if you kindly would. --Erik I have worked in three law firms. At the first firm, drinking was a big part of the culture and people would drink on the job all the time. I remember at the founding partner's birthday celebration which occurred right there in the office, we were expected to give him alcohol as a present, and he wound up getting three flasks of vodka, four bottles of wine, and three cases of beer. I was forced into contributing ten bucks towards his addiction at this party. Everyone but me then got smashed while I looked on and awkwardly observed. I clearly didn't fit in, largely due to the drinking culture, and was eventually laid off. I went on to eventually double my salary at another firm, and the partner actually wound up drinking himself to death a few years later. At my current firm, everyone knows I don't drink and everyone basically leaves me alone about it. So yes, it sort of has had a negative effect on my career, but it depends a lot on where you work. If you are with the wrong firm, it may affect your career, but not all firms are the same. If you lose your job at a firm full of alcoholics, thank the Lord for the blessing in disguise and move onward to something better!
Stargazer Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 58 minutes ago, Calm said: They can even put a lemon in it. My favorite beverage at the moment is a liter of fizzy water (created using my Soda Stream machine) with the juice of four lemons and a teaspoon of salt. It's not easy to make, however, because the lemon juice and the salt cause the fizzies to boil out of solution like mad. You have to do it gradually, re-capping quickly between administrations of salted lemon juice. And you need to dissolve the salt in the lemon juice first -- if you just add crystals it really goes to town, because the crystals provide excellent surface for bubbles to form on.
Five Solas Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeh, the Asian attitude toward the "team" is almost incestuous and very foreign to my way of thinking. I like diversity and cross-fertilization of ideas, and I noticed that the Jews in Israel were very comfortable with the fact that I was not Jewish, and yet was an integral part of the kibbutz. I believe that tight groups should include very different sorts of people, whether they are research units, combat units, or social units, and that this makes them far more effective in the long run. Vive la difference!! That might be a little harsh, Robert F. Smith. I don't have a ton of experience, but ~ 10 years ago I was on a Microsoft engagement that included a couple weeks in Tokyo. Only time in my life I've done karaoke (I served up David Bowie's "Modern Love"). But yeah, it's different there--with a different set of expectations. I'm not advocating all of that. Waylon's post was interesting. He describes no pressure to drink. His colleagues appear to respect the practice of his religion. He just doesn't want to attend. And when his employer makes attendance mandatory, he "sits in the corner" rather than socialize with a diet coke in his hand. And why is that? It's because he objects to the venue. That's it. He believes "the spirit" cannot be adequately felt in bars and the like. And better to avoid such places (or non-verbally communicate his displeasure by sitting in the corner). I applaud his candor in saying so. I suspect he's not alone. And I would like him to see he's making a mistake, that this isn't a choice between people, places--and God the Spirit. Not only is his behavior unlikely to be helping his career--it reveals a wrong understanding of God. --Erik __________________________________ Modern love Walks beside me Modern love Walks on by Modern love Gets me to the church on time --David Bowie, 1983
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Five Solas said: That might be a little harsh, Robert F. Smith. I don't have a ton of experience, but ~ 10 years ago I was on a Microsoft engagement that included a couple weeks in Tokyo. Only time in my life I've done karaoke (I served up David Bowie's "Modern Love"). But yeah, it's different there--with a different set of expectations. I'm not advocating all of that. Waylon's post was interesting. He describes no pressure to drink. His colleagues appear to respect the practice of his religion. He just doesn't want to attend. And when his employer makes attendance mandatory, he "sits in the corner" rather than socialize with a diet coke in his hand. And why is that? It's because he objects to the venue. That's it. He believes "the spirit" cannot be adequately felt in bars and the like. And better to avoid such places (or non-verbally communicate his displeasure by sitting in the corner). I applaud his candor in saying so. I suspect he's not alone. And I would like him to see he's making a mistake, that this isn't a choice between people, places--and God the Spirit. Not only is his behavior unlikely to be helping his career--it reveals a wrong understanding of God. --Erik __________________________________ Modern love Walks beside me Modern love Walks on by Modern love Gets me to the church on time --David Bowie, 1983 Did you miss his follow up post about his current firm where everybody understands he doesn’t drink and they leave him alone about it? It strikes me that his current firm is a better example of supporting diversity than the first one he described. It goes back to what I said in the other thread about how requiring diversity might, in reality, be requiring a certain kind of conformity. Stated another way, passing over a job candidate because you doubt he’ll be an enthusiastic “happy hour” participant is not promoting diversity; it’s promoting a certain kind of conformity. As far as Waylon’s “making a mistake,” it appears he’s doing just fine, having doubled his salary and having left behind a workplace “culture” where the partner drank himself to death. Edited January 8, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
Garden Girl Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: This is not an option for me. I work in a parliament. At the end of each sitting week, we 'celebrate' with drinks in the opposition leader's office. I go to be social. Walking in the first time, the first thing said to me was, 'What do you want? This beer is very nice. What about this wine?' Etc. Literally no other choice of drinks was on offer. There are only so many times that one can say, 'No, thank you', when offered a drink at an event called 'post-sitting drinks' without explaining himself. Two weeks before Christmas, the opposition had lunch together at an overpriced restaurant. We all paid a fixed price for entrees, mains and dessert, but drinks were up to each individual. I tried to go Gray's route and didn't order anything alcoholic. I didn't point it out, bring it up or otherwise draw attention to myself. Twice, staff from other offices asked me if they could get me something at the bar. 'No', I said each time; 'I'm fine'. Repeatedly, people who came back from the bar with a bottle of wine attempted to pour me some. These are all people who know that I don't drink, but apparently they found it especially vexatious that I wouldn't just join them for a little drink at a Christmas lunch. Finally, about 2/3 of the way through our meals, one sitting across from me asked, loudly, 'So, really, why won't you drink?' I'm not sure he or anyone else liked the explanation I then gave, but in a place like this, one simply can't choose to fly under the radar. Hello Hamba... I find it really strange that non-alcoholic beverages were not offered at your meetings... or people tried to push drinks on you... There are many people on medications that absolutely forbid consumption of alcohol while taking such meds (I have such a med)... or avoiding alcohol at the very least... to place people in an uncomfortable position by drawing attention to those who for one reason or another choose not to drink is insensitive... I am a veteran of the "cocktail hour" at business meetings... and the serving of wine at the tables of the sit-down dinner following... (Those not wanting wine with dinner simply turned their glass over and the server simply bypassed them). I traveled with my husband on business quite often (but at the time I was inactive and not living the WoW so I did imbibe). However, since my husband's company set the tone for such activities, they always offered a variety of non-alcoholic beverages from waters to juices. teas and coffees. And they frowned on over indulgence of alcohol (and it was this that would be more likely to hurt a career vs non-drinking). So the various member companies (in 7 western states and western half of Canada) followed the guidelines set by his company, and no one thought a thing about it. GG 2
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Garden Girl said: Hello Hamba... I find it really strange that non-alcoholic beverages were not offered at your meetings... or people tried to push drinks on you... There are many people on medications that absolutely forbid consumption of alcohol while taking such meds (I have such a med)... or avoiding alcohol at the very least... to place people in an uncomfortable position by drawing attention to those who for one reason or another choose not to drink is insensitive... I am a veteran of the "cocktail hour" at business meetings... and the serving of wine at the tables of the sit-down dinner following... (Those not wanting wine with dinner simply turned their glass over and the server simply bypassed them). I traveled with my husband on business quite often (but at the time I was inactive and not living the WoW so I did imbibe). However, since my husband's company set the tone for such activities, they always offered a variety of non-alcoholic beverages from waters to juices. teas and coffees. And they frowned on over indulgence of alcohol (and it was this that would be more likely to hurt a career vs non-drinking). So the various member companies (in 7 western states and western half of Canada) followed the guidelines set by his company, and no one thought a thing about it. GG Sounds like true diversity as opposed to the kind of “diversity” in which a job applicant is passed over because he doesn’t drink. 1
kiwi57 Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 45 minutes ago, Five Solas said: That might be a little harsh, Robert F. Smith. I don't have a ton of experience, but ~ 10 years ago I was on a Microsoft engagement that included a couple weeks in Tokyo. Only time in my life I've done karaoke (I served up David Bowie's "Modern Love"). But yeah, it's different there--with a different set of expectations. I'm not advocating all of that. Waylon's post was interesting. He describes no pressure to drink. His colleagues appear to respect the practice of his religion. He just doesn't want to attend. And when his employer makes attendance mandatory, he "sits in the corner" rather than socialize with a diet coke in his hand. And why is that? It's because he objects to the venue. That's it. He believes "the spirit" cannot be adequately felt in bars and the like. And better to avoid such places (or non-verbally communicate his displeasure by sitting in the corner). I applaud his candor in saying so. I suspect he's not alone. And I would like him to see he's making a mistake, that this isn't a choice between people, places--and God the Spirit. Not only is his behavior unlikely to be helping his career--it reveals a wrong understanding of God. --Erik __________________________________ Modern love Walks beside me Modern love Walks on by Modern love Gets me to the church on time --David Bowie, 1983 If anyone finds his/her career in the hands of a corporate bully who demands social conformity in the name of "the team," then knuckling under probably isn't going to help that career any. If an event is happening out of work hours, I decide to attend or not attend based solely upon (1) my priorities for that particular timeslot, and (2) whether I expect to enjoy myself. If the sole focus of the activity is to stand around drinking and chatting, I'm sure I've got some paint that needs to be watched while it dries. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Did you miss his follow up post about his current firm where everybody understands he doesn’t drink and they leave him alone about it. It strikes me that his current firm is a better example of supporting diversity than the first one he described. It goes back to what I said in the other thread about how requiring diversity might, in reality, be requiring a certain kind of conformity. My primary discomfort comes from real life experience with elite law enforcement units which select future members to be simpatico in every respect (following unit traditions, being good drinking buddies, demonstrating appropriate signs of manhood, and observing the code of silence when necessary). I would prefer that such units be forced to accept highly qualified but very diverse members. This prevents drift of elites into criminal behavior. We had the two major drug units in the L.A. County Sheriff's Dept go to prison -- all 15 members, and one of the wives. These were all very experienced guys, the best of the best, but (like the LAPD Ramparts Division gang unit) they all went bad. We gain nothing if we demand a cookie-cutter approach to any sort of unit, religious or secular. People are not robots, and should not be expected to conform to every surface demand. We frequently need the Hugh Nibleys of the world to say, "Wait just a darn minute there."
Scott Lloyd Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, kiwi57 said: If anyone finds his/her career in the hands of a corporate bully who demands social conformity in the name of "the team," then knuckling under probably isn't going to help that career any. If an event is happening out of work hours, I decide to attend or not attend based solely upon (1) my priorities for that particular timeslot, and (2) whether I expect to enjoy myself. If the sole focus of the activity is to stand around drinking and chatting, I'm sure I've got some paint that needs to be watched while it dries. I wonder how much knuckling under to social conformity at the expense of personal values Mitt Romney did and how his refusal to do so negatively impacted his career.
Waylon Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Five Solas said: That might be a little harsh, Robert F. Smith. I don't have a ton of experience, but ~ 10 years ago I was on a Microsoft engagement that included a couple weeks in Tokyo. Only time in my life I've done karaoke (I served up David Bowie's "Modern Love"). But yeah, it's different there--with a different set of expectations. I'm not advocating all of that. Waylon's post was interesting. He describes no pressure to drink. His colleagues appear to respect the practice of his religion. He just doesn't want to attend. And when his employer makes attendance mandatory, he "sits in the corner" rather than socialize with a diet coke in his hand. And why is that? It's because he objects to the venue. That's it. He believes "the spirit" cannot be adequately felt in bars and the like. And better to avoid such places (or non-verbally communicate his displeasure by sitting in the corner). I applaud his candor in saying so. I suspect he's not alone. And I would like him to see he's making a mistake, that this isn't a choice between people, places--and God the Spirit. Not only is his behavior unlikely to be helping his career--it reveals a wrong understanding of God. --Erik __________________________________ Modern love Walks beside me Modern love Walks on by Modern love Gets me to the church on time --David Bowie, 1983 I respect this point of view and know many very righteous people who share it, including my elders' quorum president, who said he has no problem attending drinking events that his law firm puts on (he is also an attorney). I have to admit, while I do feel uncomfortable in bars, my aversion to drinking events is not entirely religious. As long as I remember, I have had people trying to shove drinking culture down my throat. It happened in high school, it happened in college, it happened in law school (big time), and now it is happening in my career. I am very much a non-conformist by nature (which ironically actually makes the gospel easier to live in my state, where few Mormons reside), and, to be totally honest, I think, aside from religious considerations, drinking culture is pretty lame and people act like light-minded idiots when they are drunk. I also do not appreciate it when my career oversteps its bounds into my personal life, and I feel that law firm happy hours are very much the type of overstepping I do not appreciate or approve of. Bottom line, even if I had no religious concerns about drinking events with coworkers, I would probably not act appreciably different regarding workplace happy hours. I do have an ability to mask the above sentiments somewhat around people I genuinely like. I am genuinely friends with my present bosses, so on those rare occasions I am required to attend a firm meeting with lots of drinking, I can put on a friendly face and cope (though I will always pass on optional drinking socials). However, in the case of my first boss (the one who drank himself to death), I did not genuinely like him and I likely did not fully conceal my disdain for his lifestyle. To a lesser extent, I feel the same sentiments about anger at being pressured to conform regarding sports, as American males are almost expected to follow sports and be into sports, but that is a good subject for another thread . . .
Five Solas Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 59 minutes ago, Waylon said: I respect this point of view and know many very righteous people who share it, including my elders' quorum president, who said he has no problem attending drinking events that his law firm puts on (he is also an attorney). I have to admit, while I do feel uncomfortable in bars, my aversion to drinking events is not entirely religious. As long as I remember, I have had people trying to shove drinking culture down my throat. It happened in high school, it happened in college, it happened in law school (big time), and now it is happening in my career. I am very much a non-conformist by nature (which ironically actually makes the gospel easier to live in my state, where few Mormons reside), and, to be totally honest, I think, aside from religious considerations, drinking culture is pretty lame and people act like light-minded idiots when they are drunk. I also do not appreciate it when my career oversteps its bounds into my personal life, and I feel that law firm happy hours are very much the type of overstepping I do not appreciate or approve of. Bottom line, even if I had no religious concerns about drinking events with coworkers, I would probably not act appreciably different regarding workplace happy hours. I do have an ability to mask the above sentiments somewhat around people I genuinely like. I am genuinely friends with my present bosses, so on those rare occasions I am required to attend a firm meeting with lots of drinking, I can put on a friendly face and cope (though I will always pass on optional drinking socials). However, in the case of my first boss (the one who drank himself to death), I did not genuinely like him and I likely did not fully conceal my disdain for his lifestyle. To a lesser extent, I feel the same sentiments about anger at being pressured to conform regarding sports, as American males are almost expected to follow sports and be into sports, but that is a good subject for another thread . . . Again, I appreciate the reply. And I can relate a bit, especially the sports part. There was an interesting TED Talk that made use of that example in corporate America. I'm guessing you and I would probably get along pretty well if we shared the same firm & industry. And you might even like our socials - I call us "the black sheep squadron"--and yes, I'm kinda proud of it. Raise a glass to Rain, for such an interesting & provocative thread. :0) --Erik 1
Waylon Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Five Solas said: Again, I appreciate the reply. And I can relate a bit, especially the sports part. There was an interesting TED Talk that made use of that example in corporate America. I'm guessing you and I would probably get along pretty well if we shared the same firm & industry. And you might even like our socials - I call us "the black sheep squadron"--and yes, I'm kinda proud of it. Raise a glass to Rain, for such an interesting & provocative thread. :0) --Erik I would hit "like", but they apparently aren't letting me like posts yet, being a new guy. Here is a raised glass of a nonalcoholic beverage to all of the nonconformists out there.
rchorse Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 When we moved from Utah to Germany a few years ago, the drinking culture caused some awkward moments at first. Everybody here drinks, and it's pretty much the only social activity most people engage in. I haven't found that anyone has pressured me to drink, though. Every person has noticed it and asked about it or commented on it (usually with surprise), but after explaining myself, no one has pushed it further. I have no problem going to work functions at restaurants or bars where others are drinking, but I tend to leave once they get past the second or third beer. It just gets too loud and rowdy for my taste. It's hard to tell if it has impacted my career or social life because I tend to be reserved anyway. My guess is any difficulties I've had stem more from my social awkwardness than from my decision not to drink alcohol. Most decent people tend to be very accomodating of differences like that. The people that make a big deal of not drinking tend to be people I would have issues with one way or another, because they are just kind of jerks all around. I have to add that my faith, combined with my experience with an alcoholic relative, would lead me to abstain even if it completed ruined my career or social life. 3
rongo Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 We have a very good friend from Austria who worked for me in the late 1990s (I managed a motor home rental company that served primarily German-speaking tourists, but also other Europeans as well through travel agencies. Also, local American customers as well, but the premium on employees was ability to speak German). He had been a foreign exchange student in Canada, and had signed up to work for us during the summer. My wife and I were newlyweds, and we went out a lot. At the time, he ordered alcohol with everything, and naturally our non-drinking as Mormons came up. He introduced us to very good, out-of-the-way, little-known, hole-in-the-wall places he had found, and we often ate at places where we were the only ones not drinking. This was completely not awkward in our experience, and he seamlessly started ordering pop instead. In 2004, he looked us up and has visited us every summer since then. He is single (in his mid 40s) with a girlfriend, and has a very high paying job with Siemens. Of his two months vacation every year, he spends November-December in Maui, and June-July with us. He likes to take our family of six to expensive places, but he has never had alcohol while eating out since those early days in the late 1990s. We were dumbfounded when he told us that alcohol at Ruth's Chris easily adds several hundred to the already $600+ tab for our meal for 7. He says that it is not uncommon at expensive places like that for people to pay over $200 in alcohol. He feels the Spirit while being with our family, and that is what makes us as big a draw for him as Maui. He isn't going to join the Church - he is thoroughly Catholic in his way. He doesn't really believe in God, but he is Catholic through and through and would die for his Church. He is extremely intelligent and well-read, and we have had deep religious discussions. He finds my family to be fascinating, because he respects our intellect and us, and we have talked many times about what makes us tick. How can we believe in a global flood, or angels delivering books, modern miracles, etc.? Because of his respect for us and our intellect (and the Spirit that he feels), he finds us completely fascinating because he knows that we actually believe this stuff. He likes picking our brains to see how we can possibly be this way. He has an outstanding sense of humor, and we are amazed with his vast knowledge about a host of things. And, even though he is an extremely "inactive" Catholic, he knows Catholic history, doctrine, and practice very well (it's the yardstick he uses to compare Mormonism). He also took a trip to Israel and spent several weeks there, and it was a very spiritual experience for him. As far as the discussion in this thread, though, not drinking has been completely not awkward both for us and for him. 3
rongo Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, rchorse said: When we moved from Utah to Germany a few years ago, the drinking culture caused some awkward moments at first. Everybody here drinks, and it's pretty much the only social activity most people engage in. I haven't found that anyone has pressured me to drink, though. Every person has noticed it and asked about it or commented on it (usually with surprise), but after explaining myself, no one has pushed it further. I have no problem going to work functions at restaurants or bars where others are drinking, but I tend to leave once they get past the second or third beer. It just gets too loud and rowdy for my taste. It's hard to tell if it has impacted my career or social life because I tend to be reserved anyway. My guess is any difficulties I've had stem more from my social awkwardness than from my decision not to drink alcohol. Most decent people tend to be very accomodating of differences like that. The people that make a big deal of not drinking tend to be people I would have issues with one way or another, because they are just kind of jerks all around. I have to add that my faith, combined with my experience with an alcoholic relative, would lead me to abstain even if it completed ruined my career or social life. What do you do in Germany? We seriously considered moving to Germany when our children were very young, but the window passed, and they are all in junior high/high school now. Where do you live? My father and I both served missions in the north (Schleswig-Holstein, Niedersachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Nordrhein-Westfalen, etc.). I would love to see more of the "typisch Deutsch" areas. I teach high school German, and we focus a lot on culture as well.
rchorse Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, rongo said: What do you do in Germany? We seriously considered moving to Germany when our children were very young, but the window passed, and they are all in junior high/high school now. Where do you live? My father and I both served missions in the north (Schleswig-Holstein, Niedersachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Nordrhein-Westfalen, etc.). I would love to see more of the "typisch Deutsch" areas. I teach high school German, and we focus a lot on culture as well. My wife grew up in southern Germany, so we moved to her hometown for a few years so our kids can learn German better, and so they can get to know her side of the family. We're a couple hours east of Stuttgart in a fairly rural area. I work in Finance/IT for a medium-size company. Considering that I spoke very little German at the time, it was a miracle that I was able to find a job.
Tacenda Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 22 minutes ago, rongo said: We have a very good friend from Austria who worked for me in the late 1990s (I managed a motor home rental company that served primarily German-speaking tourists, but also other Europeans as well through travel agencies. Also, local American customers as well, but the premium on employees was ability to speak German). He had been a foreign exchange student in Canada, and had signed up to work for us during the summer. My wife and I were newlyweds, and we went out a lot. At the time, he ordered alcohol with everything, and naturally our non-drinking as Mormons came up. He introduced us to very good, out-of-the-way, little-known, hole-in-the-wall places he had found, and we often ate at places where we were the only ones not drinking. This was completely not awkward in our experience, and he seamlessly started ordering pop instead. In 2004, he looked us up and has visited us every summer since then. He is single (in his mid 40s) with a girlfriend, and has a very high paying job with Siemens. Of his two months vacation every year, he spends November-December in Maui, and June-July with us. He likes to take our family of six to expensive places, but he has never had alcohol while eating out since those early days in the late 1990s. We were dumbfounded when he told us that alcohol at Ruth's Chris easily adds several hundred to the already $600+ tab for our meal for 7. He says that it is not uncommon at expensive places like that for people to pay over $200 in alcohol. He feels the Spirit while being with our family, and that is what makes us as big a draw for him as Maui. He isn't going to join the Church - he is thoroughly Catholic in his way. He doesn't really believe in God, but he is Catholic through and through and would die for his Church. He is extremely intelligent and well-read, and we have had deep religious discussions. He finds my family to be fascinating, because he respects our intellect and us, and we have talked many times about what makes us tick. How can we believe in a global flood, or angels delivering books, modern miracles, etc.? Because of his respect for us and our intellect (and the Spirit that he feels), he finds us completely fascinating because he knows that we actually believe this stuff. He likes picking our brains to see how we can possibly be this way. He has an outstanding sense of humor, and we are amazed with his vast knowledge about a host of things. And, even though he is an extremely "inactive" Catholic, he knows Catholic history, doctrine, and practice very well (it's the yardstick he uses to compare Mormonism). He also took a trip to Israel and spent several weeks there, and it was a very spiritual experience for him. As far as the discussion in this thread, though, not drinking has been completely not awkward both for us and for him. Imagine if you had balked at his drinking or if you had refused to be in a place with all drinkers, you'd have missed this man's friendship possibly. I'm not a drinker, it scares me to death because of my brothers being alcoholics and the devastation it's brought. I tend to separate myself from old friends that drink, thinking they'd have funner with someone that drinks. Maybe I need to rethink this. But tend to feel more comfortable with people in their sober state. I guess because of what I've seen alcohol do to some people.
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