Adam, flesh and soul

[theplains]

Moses 3:5,7 says, "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb 
of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, 
spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had 
not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the 
children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and 
there was not yet FLESH upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air ... And I, 
the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the 
breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first FLESH upon the earth, the first man 
also."

Moses 3:8-9 - "And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the 
man whom I had formed. And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, 
naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also 
a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the 
sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; 
and man saw that it was good for food."

For my questions, I wanted to focus on the words "flesh" and "living soul."

The word 'it' seems to refer to either the ground or the garden. Which is it?  And how did
this 'it' become a living soul after Adam became a living soul?

I can understand how Adam is the first man but how is he considered the first flesh when the 
animals were created on earth before him?

How were the trees pleasant to the sight of Adam?

How did Adam consider it good for food before eating?

Thanks,
Jim

[strappinglad]

I think the ' it ' refers to the tree that was ' planted '. I like the use of the word planted in reference to the garden. It suggests that life was brought here in ' seed ' state .Each of the creation narratives have a bit of a different order and also depends on whether it connects to a spiritual creation or a physical one . The D&C says that man was created on the 7th day. It is possible that Adam was created physically first and was able to see the creation of everything else physically. we are told that he , Michael , was part of the creation team.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, theplains said:

The word 'it' seems to refer to either the ground or the garden. Which is it?  And how did
this 'it' become a living soul after Adam became a living soul?

I can understand how Adam is the first man but how is he considered the first flesh when the 
animals were created on earth before him?

How were the trees pleasant to the sight of Adam?

How did Adam consider it good for food before eating?

1. I would say "it" refers to the ground  (earth).  In Mormonism "soul" refers to the combined spirit and physical bodies.  There scripture you quote states all things were created spiritually first.  They weren't living souls until the physical creation.

2. There animals weren't created physically until after Adam.

3. Sounds like aesthetics to me.  Bit of poetry.

4.  Interesting question.  Adam ate prior to the fall.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Moses 3:5,7 says, "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb 
of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, 
spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had 
not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the 
children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and 
there was not yet FLESH upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air ... And I, 
the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the 
breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first FLESH upon the earth, the first man 
also."

Moses 3:8-9 - "And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the 
man whom I had formed. And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, 
naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also 
a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the 
sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; 
and man saw that it was good for food."

For my questions, I wanted to focus on the words "flesh" and "living soul."

The word 'it' seems to refer to either the ground or the garden. Which is it?  And how did
this 'it' become a living soul after Adam became a living soul?

I can understand how Adam is the first man but how is he considered the first flesh when the 
animals were created on earth before him?

How were the trees pleasant to the sight of Adam?

How did Adam consider it good for food before eating?

Thanks,
Jim

Easy.

1 Corinthians 15:

Quote

 

³⁵ But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

³⁶ Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

³⁷ And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

³⁸ But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

³⁹ All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

⁴⁰ There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

⁴¹ There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

⁴² So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

⁴³ It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

⁴⁴ It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

⁴⁵ And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

⁴⁶ Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

⁴⁷ The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

⁴⁸ As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

⁴⁹ And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

⁵⁰ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

Adam became a living "soul" after his spirit was united with his body/flesh

Animals have another kind of "flesh" than we do, and there are different bodies after the resurrection- a different kind of "flesh" than we have now.

Jesus the "second Adam" is called a "quickening spirit" because he brought us the resurrection which is "quickening".

This is all VERY "MORMON" and very biblical as well.

Hebrews 10:

 

Quote

 

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

So through good works and the atonement and baptism and the testimony of the savior in our hearts,  we also have the church for assembling ourselves together and the consecration of our bodies enabling the resurrection through the ordinances of the gospel.

Some of this you will not understand.  It refers to Christ's resurrection opening the veil for work for the dead and being our High Priest- and so also here a reference to the Priesthood.

Edited January 1, 2018 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Moses 3:5,7 says, "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb 
of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, 
spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had 
not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the 
children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and 
there was not yet FLESH upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air ... And I, 
the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the 
breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first FLESH upon the earth, the first man 
also."

Moses 3:8-9 - "And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the 
man whom I had formed. And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, 
naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also 
a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the 
sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; 
and man saw that it was good for food."

For my questions, I wanted to focus on the words "flesh" and "living soul."

The word 'it' seems to refer to either the ground or the garden. Which is it?  And how did
this 'it' become a living soul after Adam became a living soul?

I can understand how Adam is the first man but how is he considered the first flesh when the 
animals were created on earth before him?

How were the trees pleasant to the sight of Adam?

How did Adam consider it good for food before eating?

Thanks,
Jim

I think “it” in the two samples refers to the whole of creation, which encompasses “all things” which were crated or organized spiritually in heaven before they were organized naturally or physically in the pre-Fall world. “Flesh” seems to be used synonymously with “natural” or “living soul,” wherein the spirit and the body are connected. So yes, this seems to refer to things, both individual (i.e. Adam) and integrated units (i.e. the garden) and whole (i.e. the world) entities that we consider to be inanimate as well as animate.

I don't see where any other life form was made flesh before Adam was (I'm not sure if mist and dust qualify, especially if they had not yet been integrated into what might be recognizable as a planet or even  a garden plot), but there must have been a safe place for him to live while the rest of creation took form, and before he took that fateful nap.

I think the trees were pleasant and the fruit considered good in an instinctual way, much as a newborn infant is instinctively drawn to his mother for pleasant feelings and nourishment. I Adam's case, he only grew in his appreciation and understanding.

[theplains]

On 01/01/2018 at 2:40 PM, strappinglad said:

The D&C says that man was created on the 7th day.

Which section?

Jim

[theplains]

On 01/01/2018 at 4:58 PM, CV75 said:

I think the trees were pleasant and the fruit considered good in an instinctual way, much as a newborn infant is instinctively drawn to his mother for pleasant feelings and nourishment.

How could Adam experience pleasure when he knew no misery?

Thanks,
Jim

[CV75]

1 minute ago, theplains said:

How could Adam experience pleasure when he knew no misery?

Thanks,
Jim

In an instinctual way, just as an infant experiences pleasant (and unpleasant) sensations. Misery is emotional and spiritual; sensations arise from the physical senses. 

[theplains]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

In an instinctual way, just as an infant experiences pleasant (and unpleasant) sensations. Misery is emotional and spiritual; sensations arise from the physical senses. 

Do you believe joy or misery was Adam and Eve's first sensation?

Jim

[JAHS]

On 1/1/2018 at 1:58 PM, CV75 said:

I don't see where any other life form was made flesh before Adam was (I'm not sure if mist and dust qualify, especially if they had not yet been integrated into what might be recognizable as a planet or even  a garden plot), but there must have been a safe place for him to live while the rest of creation took form, and before he took that fateful nap.

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:
"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death."  (Recorded by Anson Call in Nauvoo, Illinois)

President Heber C. Kimball said:
"When we escape from this earth, (do) we suppose we are going to heaven? Do you suppose you are going to the earth that Adam came from? that Eloheim came from? where Jehovah the Lord came from? No." (J.D. 1:356)

Perhaps this other planet was the safe place.

[strappinglad]

53 minutes ago, theplains said:

Which section?

77:12

[CV75]

11 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe joy or misery was Adam and Eve's first sensation?

Jim

Neither; I do not consider joy or misery to be sensations (responses to the five senses) but rather emotions (internal responses to knowledge of external situations and meaning). The verse you posted only says, "I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man" -- see also Genesis 2:9 and Moses 4:12 -- not how or why man (or Eve, Genesis 3:6) came to find them pleasant.

Joy and misery came with knowledge, or with becoming as "one of us" after partaking of the pleasant forbidden fruit (it did not become bitter until after they partook -- 2 Nephi 2:15). Desire was Eve's first latent emotion (since desire aims at altering reality while emotions reflect reality, just a faith and knowledge do the same thing, respectively). Shame and fear seem to be their first emotion, with joy coming after the Lord's promised redemption.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, JAHS said:

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:
"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death."  (Recorded by Anson Call in Nauvoo, Illinois)

President Heber C. Kimball said:
"When we escape from this earth, (do) we suppose we are going to heaven? Do you suppose you are going to the earth that Adam came from? that Eloheim came from? where Jehovah the Lord came from? No." (J.D. 1:356)

Perhaps this other planet was the safe place.

Yes, I've heard this.

[RevTestament]

22 hours ago, JAHS said:

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:
"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death."  (Recorded by Anson Call in Nauvoo, Illinois)

President Heber C. Kimball said:
"When we escape from this earth, (do) we suppose we are going to heaven? Do you suppose you are going to the earth that Adam came from? that Eloheim came from? where Jehovah the Lord came from? No." (J.D. 1:356)

Perhaps this other planet was the safe place.

Thanks for that reference JAHS. We usually only get that quote in the Adam-God quotes of BY from the J.D.  It seems BY was merely quoting JS. Thus, JS supports my continued representation that Yeshua came here as our Savior after living on another planet. Maybe there is not much to support my claim that is where Yeshua became the only begotten Son of El Elyon, but the list of evidence is growing...

[JLHPROF]

22 hours ago, JAHS said:

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:
"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death."  (Recorded by Anson Call in Nauvoo, Illinois)

 

Hey, nobody loves Adam-God more than I do (on this board).
But that quote is from 1877, not recorded in Nauvoo.

I believe Joseph understood, or was just beginning to understand Adam-God before his death.
But as much as I'd like there to be we have no teachings recorded from Joseph on the subject.  Just hearsay accounts years later attributing the teaching to him.

Perhaps Anson Call was honest in this recollection, but we don't have any contemporary evidence sadly.

[RevTestament]

47 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Hey, nobody loves Adam-God more than I do (on this board).
But that quote is from 1877, not recorded in Nauvoo.

I believe Joseph understood, or was just beginning to understand Adam-God before his death.
But as much as I'd like there to be we have no teachings recorded from Joseph on the subject.  Just hearsay accounts years later attributing the teaching to him.

Perhaps Anson Call was honest in this recollection, but we don't have any contemporary evidence sadly.

Oh. Thanks for clearing that up JLHPROF. That makes it a much less relevant quote in my mind. As you have probably picked up from me, I tend to dislike the secondary-decades-later quotes that seem kind of prevalent in LDS history. It would be a much more relevant quote if it had been contemporaneous with JS. Instead it sounds like Anson is mixing up BY with JS. Oh well.

[The Nehor]

On 1/5/2018 at 8:02 PM, JLHPROF said:

Hey, nobody loves Adam-God more than I do (on this board).
But that quote is from 1877, not recorded in Nauvoo.

I believe Joseph understood, or was just beginning to understand Adam-God before his death.
But as much as I'd like there to be we have no teachings recorded from Joseph on the subject.  Just hearsay accounts years later attributing the teaching to him.

Perhaps Anson Call was honest in this recollection, but we don't have any contemporary evidence sadly.

Next you will be telling me that being in my 30s and unmarried does not necessarily mean I am a menace to society.

[theplains]

On 05/01/2018 at 10:39 AM, CV75 said:

Shame and fear seem to be their first emotion, with joy coming after the Lord's promised redemption.

Do you believe they worshipped God with joy in the garden before the Fall?

Jim

[CV75]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe they worshipped God with joy in the garden before the Fall?

Jim

I answered that here: Posted Friday at 10:39 AM. Joy and misery came with knowledge, or with becoming as "one of us" after partaking of the pleasant forbidden fruit (it did not become bitter until after they partook -- 2 Nephi 2:15). Desire was their innocent, emotionally unfulfilled or unrealized inclination (desire is to altering reality as faith is to knowledge).

Where did God command them to worship Him (before the Fall)? He only commanded them to obey the two commandments. As they were not yet capable of misery or joy (2 Nephi 2:23), a desire or inclination to obey Him would be the closest thing they had, but this is not explicitly confirmed in the scriptural account.

Genesis 3:6 says, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.” She desired to be made wise.

Genesis 2:22-23 says, “And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” His statement seems to reflect a desire to live and to multiply and replenish the earth, which was consistent with the two commandments. Presumably Eve had been on board with this same desire, but was beguiled to pursue another one.

[clarkgoble]

On 1/1/2018 at 12:27 PM, theplains said:

For my questions, I wanted to focus on the words "flesh" and "living soul."

The word 'it' seems to refer to either the ground or the garden. Which is it?  And how did
this 'it' become a living soul after Adam became a living soul?

I can understand how Adam is the first man but how is he considered the first flesh when the 
animals were created on earth before him?

How were the trees pleasant to the sight of Adam?

How did Adam consider it good for food before eating?

Remember that with the exception of Moses 1, the books of Moses are parts of the Joseph Smith Translation of Genesis that were published. When Orson Pratt was putting together the Pearl of Great Price he made use what had already published since the church didn't have the manuscripts for the JST. So what you're reading are modifications to Genesis 1 & 2-3. Those are typically seen as two separate creation accounts. Interestingly Moses links them by saying the former was a spiritual account and the second account (Gen 2-3) was the actual creation. This is interesting since there was a tradition at the time of Christ that Genesis 1 was an intellectual creation and Genesis 2 the physical. Joseph makes a similar move, although it's not totally clear what the Moses revision means there. Some take it to mean a planning session, although there are some difficulties with that reading. Others see it as a real creation, but of some heavenly prototype of earth. Others see it as part of a tripartite creation. In that view there is a celestial, terrestrial and telestial world. Genesis 1/Moses 2 is the celestial creation. Genesis 2-3/Moses 3-4 is the terrestrial world creation (Eden). That is separate from the telestial world which is where Adam is cast out from Eden.

So to your questions, flesh means the creation in the second creation account but not the first account. First flesh might mean a hierarchal account - so Adam is first in that he is the governor of Eden. There are other ways of reading this as well. Especially once you get into the pre-Christian treatment of the text and its relation to related creation accounts and texts. A growing view of scholars also sees Genesis 1 in particular as tied to the temple and is thus a cosmological ordering rather than a straightforward creation. (Note these are non-Mormons - e.g. here) In particular many have noted the structural parallels between Genesis 1 & Ex 39-40/  Joseph in the later Nauvoo era also tended to view Genesis 1 as the head god bringing forth the gods, which has some interesting echos to the Canaanite pantheon and it's appearance in various OT texts like Daniel, Psalms 82 or elsewhere. 

One way of putting all this is to say that Genesis 1 isn't a creation account per se but a cosmological account. (Cosmological in the sense of ordering the universe - not in the sense of modern physics) So Genesis 1 is the organizing of chaos with echoes of old Canaanite cosmology repurposed. So the first three days deal with the ordering of the chaos of darkness, water and earth. This process then continues with various types of opposition. (Think of the work opposition does in 2 Nephi 2 and you get an idea of what's going on here - a presentation of oppositions that constitute order) If days 1-3 create opposition, days 4-6 populate these opposition. So the darkness is populated with planets (sun, moon, stars). The water is populated with birds (for the waters of the sky) and fish (for the waters below). Finally earth is populated with animals and humans. Humans are the culmination on day 6 and Adam is First Flesh because of how he is placed in the hierarchy as highest - lower only of the gods doing the creation. (Psalms 8:5-8 is frequently seen as tied to Genesis 1 in terms of this ordering or hierarchy) 

It's worth noting that Genesis 2:1 emphasizes that the heavens and earth were finished "and all the host of them." If we take Joseph's later Nauvoo comment about the head God bringing forth the gods, then this completes the creation of the hosts of heaven. i.e. the spirits of heaven and ordering them in a hierarchy. Note that this follows also in the Ugaritic narratives as well.  Interestingly most scholars see the battle with the waters as paralleling the Ugarit battle between Baal/Yahweh and Yam. The Enuma Elish actually parallels Genesis 1 quite strongly in many ways. Which is not to reduce Genesis 1 to it. Even if influenced by Canaanite narratives they gave things their own view. Further the view today isn't that Genesis depends upon Unuma Elish but both represent broad traditions in the near east. Those traditions are about the basic conceptual ordering of things and not creation of "things" as such.

Edited January 10, 2018 by clarkgoble

[theplains]

On 09/01/2018 at 10:53 PM, clarkgoble said:

It's worth noting that Genesis 2:1 emphasizes that the heavens and earth were finished "and all the host of them." If we take Joseph's later Nauvoo comment about the head God bringing forth the gods, then this completes the creation of the hosts of heaven. i.e. the spirits of heaven and ordering them in a hierarchy.

What do you mean about Joseph's comment about the head God bringing forth the gods?

Jim

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

What do you mean about Joseph's comment about the head God bringing forth the gods?

Jim

In Mormonism Eloheim is understood to be a plural word, and the head God bringing forth the Gods refers to his calling a council of the members of the Eloheim.

For example:
Genesis 1:26 has God speaking to the other Gods ("Let US make man in OUR image")
Genesis 1:27 tells us that there are male and female Gods. ("In the image of God created he him; male and female created he them")
Genesis 3:22 has God comparing mankind to the Gods plural ("the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil")

Traditional Christianity would attribute this to the Trinity (God speaking to himself I suppose).