Bernard Gui Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) On 11/10/2017 at 11:22 AM, bluebell said: I think some of this, when looked it from a spiritual perspective, becomes an issue of how does God feel about us needlessly risking our lives or cutting them short because of risky decisions, who's only payout is self-centered? Do we have a responsibility to mitigate the amount of self-serving risk there is in our lives, especially if we have a spouse or children? I have gone mountain hiking and four-wheeling by myself. Totally dangerous violation of the buddy rule. Pretty self centered. Another friend fell asleep at the wheel driving to a child’s baby blessing. Killed him and his daughter. They were driving through the night. A dentist friend died in a snowmobile accident. I get your point, but I hesitate making that decision for others. How far do we take insuring everyone has a risk-free, painless, safe and secure life? Edited November 12, 2017 by Bernard Gui 2
Bernard Gui Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 6 hours ago, smac97 said: More to the point, how much injury is acceptable in sports which are sponsored and subsidized by the LDS Church? Thanks, -Smac Like Boy Scout outings when things go wrong, or Church basketball?
Bernard Gui Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, smac97 said: I'm not a fan of hockey, either. It glorifies/justifies brawling. Athletic competition is one thing. Having referees stand by while two hockely players pummel each other is not, in my view, sportsmanship. Thanks, -Smac Well, there goes Canada. Perhaps the feminists are right. We must find a cure for toxic masculinity. Edited November 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui
The Nehor Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, bluebell said: Life is not all about academics though. No, but I think a University should mostly be about it. Athletics should be less a pursuit of competition and more a general interest of humanity. Sometimes I think too much of our athletic pursuits are something we watch as opposed to something we do. Then again I find most sporting events leave me bored. I admit I sometimes envy those who can enjoy passionately rooting for a team. I am probably missing something. Then again I do not envy the people who seem to get depressed or angry when their team loses. My default response to obnoxious fans is mentally at least more like this at the moment: Edited November 11, 2017 by The Nehor 2
Ginger Snaps Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) I’d be happy to see it disappear. I have nothing but disgust for football. It’s dangerous and barbaric. Egregious acts have been committed against children (looking at you Paterno and Sandusky) and women (how many domestic violence cases have we seen associated with the NFL?) all in the name of football and the almighty dollar. Edited November 11, 2017 by Ginger Snaps 1
smac97 Posted November 11, 2017 Author Posted November 11, 2017 13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Like Boy Scout outings when things go wrong, or Church basketball? Boy Scout outings don't seem to be fraught with traumatic head injuries. Nor is church basketball. Thanks, -Smac 2
smac97 Posted November 11, 2017 Author Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Well, there goes Canada. Perhaps the feminists are right. We must find a cure for toxic masculinity. Plenty of masculine things don't require the participants to put themselves at substantial risk of traumatic brain injury. Thanks, -Smac Edited November 11, 2017 by smac97 2
smac97 Posted November 11, 2017 Author Posted November 11, 2017 9 hours ago, Ginger Snaps said: I’d be happy to see it disappear. I have nothing but disgust for football. It’s dangerous and barbaric. Egregious acts have been committed against children (looking at you Paterno and Sandusky) and women (how many domestic violence cases have we seen associated with the NFL?) all in the name of football and the almighty dollar. I'm not seeing any sort of intrinsic connection between football and child molestation or domestic violence. In contrast, I am seeing a strong causal link between football and traumatic brain injuries. Thanks, -Smac
bluebell Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I have gone mountain hiking and four-wheelin by myself. Totally dangerous violation of the buddy rule. Pretty self centered. Another friend fell asleep at the wheel driving to a child’s baby blessing. Killed him and his daughter. They were driving through the night. A dentist friend died in a snowmobile accident. I get your point, but I hesitate making that decision for others. How far do we take insuring everyone has a risk-free, painless, safe and secure life? We don't have to make decisions for others, but I think what we are talking about is making decisions for ourselves, such as is it moral to cheer on behavior that is known to cause significant harm to other people. My questions weren't about having a risk-free life but about trying to decide what our responsibility is to mitigate unnecessary risk so that we are capable of doing the work God asks of us (such as taking care of our families and serving others). There comes a point when a life of risk just becomes selfish, ungrateful to the God who gave it to us, and a waste. I don't know where that line is. 4
Ginger Snaps Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'm not seeing any sort of intrinsic connection between football and child molestation or domestic violence. In contrast, I am seeing a strong causal link between football and traumatic brain injuries. Thanks, -Smac Perhaps what I should have said is that people are willing to turn a blind eye to these things if the perpetrator is a fantastic player or a coach that has a record number of championships or whatever. It’s all part of the culture surrounding the sport.
mfbukowski Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 On 11/10/2017 at 8:50 AM, smac97 said: I wonder if BYU should consider dropping its football program. I am aware that it has a deep and strong and rich heritage and tradition, but football seems to be too dangerous a sport. Consider, e.g., this (emphases added): What do you think? Is sponsoring football a good idea for the Church, given the potential (and actual) injuries involved? There are other factors as well (tickets have become crazy expensive, etc.). Thanks, -Smac Clearly another excuse for the anti's to prove that the church is not inspired. I mean allowing all our young men to get brain injuries? What kind of church is that?? It's about as good an argument as they usually come up with....
Teancum Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 On 11/10/2017 at 11:50 AM, smac97 said: I wonder if BYU should consider dropping its football program. I am aware that it has a deep and strong and rich heritage and tradition, but football seems to be too dangerous a sport. Consider, e.g., this (emphases added): What do you think? Is sponsoring football a good idea for the Church, given the potential (and actual) injuries involved? There are other factors as well (tickets have become crazy expensive, etc.). Thanks, -Smac Football is big money for colleges. Accordingly even at BYU, you will never see it go away.
strappinglad Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 I think that football will soon be down played . Wait for it....
Calm Posted November 11, 2017 Posted November 11, 2017 21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I have gone mountain hiking and four-wheelin by myself. Totally dangerous violation of the buddy rule. Pretty self centered. Another friend fell asleep at the wheel driving to a child’s baby blessing. Killed him and his daughter. They were driving through the night. A dentist friend died in a snowmobile accident. I get your point, but I hesitate making that decision for others. How far do we take insuring everyone has a risk-free, painless, safe and secure life? Do you believe boxing should be a college sport?
Calm Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, bluebell said: We don't have to make decisions for others, but I think what we are talking about is making decisions for ourselves, such as is it moral to cheer on behavior that is known to cause significant harm to other people. My questions weren't about having a risk-free life but about trying to decide what our responsibility is to mitigate unnecessary risk so that we are capable of doing the work God asks of us (such as taking care of our families and serving others). There comes a point when a life of risk just becomes selfish, ungrateful to the God who gave it to us, and a waste. I don't know where that line is. Driving at night is rarely done as the goal itself. Wisdom in doing so can prevent many issues with it. Be fully rested where possible and have caffeine available if one becomes drowsy, resting 20 minutes to allow it to kick in if you don't take it before getting sleepy. Generally speaking those who go mountain climbing alone are fully aware of the risks nor are they being pressured to do so be the greater culture or a desire for a more financially attractive life. My husband makes sure his insurance is paid up and he knows if he gets injured in a motorcycle accident where he was out there for fun, we will be getting professionals to care for him as neither myself nor my daughter are physically up to it and my son has his own family to care for. When schools promote sports, when kids are turned into celebrities, when huge salaries are given to the best players, there is significant pressure being applied while not much, if any, discussion of potential long term harm. And generally pressure is being applied to kids that are not yet that great at planning for the future, say retirement age. Perhaps they could start making films of older brain damaged players like they showed car wrecks in driver's ed back in my day (do they do that any more?) Of course many kids will just think 'I can deal with that later if it means life is sweet now'. It would probably be better to show them to parents along with the tag "you thought he'd be taking care of you in your senior years, not the other way around". https://concussionfoundation.org/CTE-resources/what-is-CTE Edited November 12, 2017 by Calm 2
strappinglad Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 Please don't CFR me on this , but I remember when hockey players never wore helmets , and the goalies didn't have face masks. Eventually a goalie got tired of losing teeth and built his own mask. Now no goalie would be caught without one. Regular players got helmets to prevent head injuries but for a while serious head injuries went UP because the kids thought the helmet made them indestructible and they hit harder and bounced more guys off the boards etc.
Gray Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 On 11/10/2017 at 11:02 AM, Scott Lloyd said: The propensity of football to cause brain damage might help explain the recent silly fad among NFL players to "take a knee" while the National Anthem is played. Taking a respectful stand against barbarism is something every patiotic and principled American can support. 1
Bernard Gui Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Calm said: Do you believe boxing should be a college sport? What I believe isn't important. It's up to participants to choose for themselves. I believe boxing has been a sport in some colleges and universities historically. Come to think of it, perhaps it would be better if all sports were intramural clubs. Then anyone who wanted to could participate. 1
Bernard Gui Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 13 hours ago, bluebell said: We don't have to make decisions for others, but I think what we are talking about is making decisions for ourselves, such as is it moral to cheer on behavior that is known to cause significant harm to other people. My questions weren't about having a risk-free life but about trying to decide what our responsibility is to mitigate unnecessary risk so that we are capable of doing the work God asks of us (such as taking care of our families and serving others). There comes a point when a life of risk just becomes selfish, ungrateful to the God who gave it to us, and a waste. I don't know where that line is. Are we saying my dentist friend was remiss in his duties by going over the cliff in his snowmobile and leaving his family and bishop status behind? We all make choices without foreseeing the end result, such as my friend who fell asleep at the wheel trying to drive through the night to make it to a family activity.
Bernard Gui Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 14 hours ago, smac97 said: Plenty of masculine things don't require the participants to put themselves at substantial risk of traumatic brain injury. Thanks, -Smac But isn't that what we are talking about? Those things that do?
Bernard Gui Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, smac97 said: Boy Scout outings don't seem to be fraught with traumatic head injuries. Nor is church basketball. Thanks, -Smac My friend Keith dove headfirst into a pond at Yellowstone, disregarding the Scout safe swim rules. Cracked his head on a submerged log. I almost broke my back being bucked off a mule on a Scout pack trip. A Scout in our ward unit missed death by inches when he overran a trail and slid down into the Carbon Glacier at Mt Rainier. Then his dad joined him on the brink as he panicked and slid down the slope to help him. Two people to rescue. My best friend (Jewish guy) cut open the back of my hand at an OA training camp with his knife showing me how sharp it was. My friend Chuck (adult leader) shattered his ankle on a winter snow trip and has permanent damage and plates holding things together. When I directed a Webelos camp for our Council, I came to learn the professional staff at the property called the all-Mormon Scout camp week "Hell Week." When I was assistant stake executive secretary, a high council meeting was interrupted with a report that there was a fight on the basketball court between a bishop and an EQ president. In several city softball leagues, some teams didn't like playing against the Mormon groups because they were so aggressive. I remember a couple of guys who wore their metal cleats at church softball in Illinois. I think part of the problem is that we Mormon guys are supposed to repress those aggressive masculine inclinations, so every once in a while they find a way to get released. Just saying. Maybe my experiences are unique. Edited November 12, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 On 11/10/2017 at 5:39 PM, USU78 said: Bednarize' em. 😎 Explain......?
Darren10 Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 On 11/10/2017 at 11:07 AM, smac97 said: There are so many sports that are less prone to cause head injuries. Boxing (including MMA?) and football, on the other hand, seem to be the worst. BYU, however, only has a football program. Thanks, -Smac Don’t forget soccer on the head injury list. And MMA does not cause nearly as much severe head injuries as does boxing. Which of the non cranial precujucial sports generate as much revenue as football? Will people pack in the stands for a Yoga competition? The fine arts for BYU I’m sure generate overall more revenue than does football but not event for event. Economics is a very real factor in deciding which sports to ban. And there are reasons why football became do popular in the US. People like to escape reality through agression. Football fills that bill nicely. If for that reason alone, let’s keep it going and I speak as one who has never cared for professional sports. I do take interest in UFC fights but not nearly enough to pay to watch them, nor do I know many particulars about its participants. Our nation is becoming more and more cautious. More and more to not allow people to take risks. To this end I’d oppose removing football from BYU. Restricting participation in a sport already heavily regulated for safety (and I say this as a positive) from a college, I think, does overall damage to everyone. When adult players know the risks of football and still choose to participste, let thrm. And if it’s a popular cultural sport, promote it. I say let it continue.
Darren10 Posted November 12, 2017 Posted November 12, 2017 On 11/10/2017 at 12:11 PM, The Nehor said: I prefer sparring. If you are going to damage each other you might as well just punch them. Cool! I don’t know what they do in Bolivia but this fighter was showing off moves much more in line with Capoeira than with kick boxing.
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