Should BYU Drop its Football Program?

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

If you think respectfully kneeling out of concern about for all the racially-motivated murder that's going on is somehow disrespectful to either flag our country, you probably don't really get what it means to be a patriotic American.

Why limit it to just one issue? Which murders are you referring to? 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Atheist Mormon]

On 11/10/2017 at 10:50 AM, smac97 said:

I wonder if BYU should consider dropping its football program.  I am aware that it has a deep and strong and rich heritage and tradition, but football seems to be too dangerous a sport.  Consider, e.g., this (emphases added):

What do you think?  Is sponsoring football a good idea for the Church, given the potential (and actual) injuries involved?  There are other factors as well (tickets have become crazy expensive, etc.).

Thanks,

-Smac

Coming from a football junkie where I watched college/Pro football ever since moving to US I can't disagree with any of the dangers...I would hate to see any of my sons play this sport. But I watch it every Saturday & Sunday. I loved BYU football in it's heyday when McMahon/Steve Young were playing. I was discussing this with my son & he replied " how do we know human CTE is normal?, maybe alots of humans who never played game shows the same CTE symptoms"

Yes BYU made huge bonehead mistake by going independent but it would be premature to discard the program, not to mention there would be riots!!!!!!

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why limit it to just one issue? Which murders are you referring to? 

Browse some examples at your leisure.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32740523

[california boy]

I find some irony that many supporting the ending of the football program because of possible injuries are the same ones that freaked out when the ROTC program left BYU. 

 

You do do know what the ROTC is training BYU students to do right?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I find some irony that many supporting the ending of the football program because of possible injuries are the same ones that freaked out when the ROTC program left BYU. 

 

You do do know what the ROTC is training BYU students to do right?

I think that most people believe there is a difference between taking a risk for a game, and taking a risk to accomplish something good or to help others.  There's no irony there.

[california boy]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think that most people believe there is a difference between taking a risk for a game, and taking a risk to accomplish something good or to help others.  There's no irony there.

Ah yes.  The wonderful pastime of war.  It has brought such happiness and joy to mankind.  

I disagree.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

I find some irony that many supporting the ending of the football program because of possible injuries are the same ones that freaked out when the ROTC program left BYU. 

 

You do do know what the ROTC is training BYU students to do right?

Hmmm. Defending the nation versus entertainment. Yep. Lots of similarities.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Gray said:

Browse some examples at your leisure.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32740523

There are far greater dangers to many Black Americans than being shot by a police officer. Being a Black fetus puts one in a very high probability of dying before even being born, and living in parts of Chicago puts one at a much greater risk of being shot by another Black American than being involved in a police shooting. Who’s taking the knee for them? Brain injuries from playing  football pale in comparison with those two holocausts.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

Ah yes.  The wonderful pastime of war.  It has brought such happiness and joy to mankind.  

I disagree.

You think that playing a game and defending a nation are comparable activities?  

I’m not sure what you’re saying exactly. 

[Rain]

 

 

 

 

On 11/13/2017 at 11:50 PM, The Nehor said:

I do not believe BYU would do this in a vacuum but I expect football to diminish generally.

Yes, and if they did it well, with planning then others would be more likely to follow. If they came out and said, "we feel we need to pull out of football. We recognize there are a lot of lives that are affected by football - both the injuries that occurred and the opportunities that come from playing the game. We also recognize we have this stadium and many people employed to run the games. Here is our alternative plan."  If done well then it will help others to make the same choices.

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are far greater dangers to many Black Americans than being shot by a police officer. Being a Black fetus puts one in a very high probability of dying before even being born, and living in parts of Chicago puts one at a much greater risk of being shot by another Black American than being involved in a police shooting. Who’s taking the knee for them? Brain injuries from playing  football pale in comparison with those two holocausts.

I'm trying to figure out why there is a problem with pointing out a concern without pointing out every other concern in the world. People have things that are close to their hearts and many, when they are in a position to do so, do things that shine light on those things. For a brief moment that light has others thinking and considering the matter. In a few moments the light will be somewhere else. 

I am only one person. There is something close to my heart so I post about it a lot on facebook. I am well aware that there are other similar problems, but I know I can't do everything and Heavenly Father sometimes nudges me at time to focus. 

So right now a few football players are shining a light on black lives. Why tell them that their light isn't shining in enough places? 

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Rain

[MiserereNobis]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are far greater dangers to many Black Americans than being shot by a police officer. Being a Black fetus puts one in a very high probability of dying before even being born, and living in parts of Chicago puts one at a much greater risk of being shot by another Black American than being involved in a police shooting. Who’s taking the knee for them? Brain injuries from playing  football pale in comparison with those two holocausts.

Red herring.

The fact that there are other problems doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on one particular "lesser" problem. Applying your logic to problems would mean that everyone in the world would focus on only one problem -- the greatest one in the world (whatever that is) because if someone focused on something lesser we would just point out that there is a greater problem they should be focusing on.

Also, there is a bit of a straw man here. They are not just protesting being shot by a police officer. They are protesting the issues of systemic racism as evidenced (but not limited to) being shot by a police officer.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Red herring.

The fact that there are other problems doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on one particular "lesser" problem. Applying your logic to problems would mean that everyone in the world would focus on only one problem -- the greatest one in the world (whatever that is) because if someone focused on something lesser we would just point out that there is a greater problem they should be focusing on.

Also, there is a bit of a straw man here. They are not just protesting being shot by a police officer. They are protesting the issues of systemic racism as evidenced (but not limited to) being shot by a police officer.

Not as I understand it. This is the prime issue as defined by its initiators, as in pig police socks, hands up gestures, and press statements. Perhaps on realizing they had stirred up a hornet nest with that, they morphed it into a more general thing, but that was the original issue. They have a bully puppet and an international stage and could do much to call attention to the two ongoing slaughters that are of far greater significance than police actions. Of course that should be a concern, but as far as I am concerned, abortion and murder and their accompanying problems are far more egregious for our Black community, get less attention, and even less action. Consider the disproportionate amount of media attention given to the abortion of black babies, the murder of young Black American men in our cities, and anthem protests. Rather than unify cities, teams, and the nation as they said it would, it has actually caused huge divisions and acrimony. It’s sad. The football guys can do as they wish. It may destroy their sport...but isn’t that what many here are hoping for? If college football goes away, so will the NFL.

Quote

Social media, San Diego media and national media outlets had buzzed with commentary sparked by Kaepernick, who said he's protesting police brutality against African Americans and other minorities.

http://beta.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-chargers-kaepernick-20160901-snap-story.html

Edited November 18, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

So right now a few football players are shining a light on black lives. Why tell them that their light isn't shining in enough places? 

See my response to MN above.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

You think that playing a game and defending a nation are comparable activities?  

I’m not sure what you’re saying exactly. 

I find little justification in the Plan of Salvation that justifies war.  We spend billions upon billions of dollars and taking thousands upon thousands of lives with this game of war.  How many mothers have lost their sons to war.  How many wives have lost their husbands.  How many children have lost their husbands.  How many innocent lives have been taken simply because they were in the wrong place.  And for what?   Yet BYU and church leaders glory in the training of teenagers to teach them how to kill.  While worrying about injuries from playing sports.

For some reason mankind has decided that war is justified and even noble.  I do not.  What would happen if instead of the mass destruction the entire power of the world only focused on any leader that declares war.  Hunt them down.  Pursue that individual until there is no place for them to hide.  I think that would be the end of this stupid killing and destroying of families, of lives that never got their fair shot at the experience of earth.

No, I most definitely do not think that playing a game is the same as training young men to kill other humans.  Defending our country is only the justification.  Name one war in your lifetime that was fought defending our actual country.  Which is far different than defending our economic interests and maintaining our political control over others.  And justify to me why anyone except the leader that declares war should be hunted down and killed.  Because history has shown over and over again, that when the leader dies, the war usually ends shortly.

[california boy]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmm. Defending the nation versus entertainment. Yep. Lots of similarities.

See my response to Bluebell.  Maybe you can justify the killing of thousands upon thousands of lives but balk at sport injuries.  I can not.

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, california boy said:

I find little justification in the Plan of Salvation that justifies war.  We spend billions upon billions of dollars and taking thousands upon thousands of lives with this game of war.  How many mothers have lost their sons to war.  How many wives have lost their husbands.  How many children have lost their husbands.  How many innocent lives have been taken simply because they were in the wrong place.  And for what?   Yet BYU and church leaders glory in the training of teenagers to teach them how to kill.  While worrying about injuries from playing sports.

For some reason mankind has decided that war is justified and even noble.  I do not.  What would happen if instead of the mass destruction the entire power of the world only focused on any leader that declares war.  Hunt them down.  Pursue that individual until there is no place for them to hide.  I think that would be the end of this stupid killing and destroying of families, of lives that never got their fair shot at the experience of earth.

No, I most definitely do not think that playing a game is the same as training young men to kill other humans.  Defending our country is only the justification.  Name one war in your lifetime that was fought defending our actual country.  Which is far different than defending our economic interests and maintaining our political control over others.  And justify to me why anyone except the leader that declares war should be hunted down and killed.  Because history has shown over and over again, that when the leader dies, the war usually ends shortly.

Personally, I think that war is sometimes justified and sometimes not.  I see no harm in protecting ourselves (and I do believe that it's noble to risk your life for a greater good) and/or others, but I know that war is a complicated thing and rarely a black and white issue.

But we weren't talking about justifying war.  We were talking about whether or not it's ironic that people view different risks differently.  You said that it was ironic, and I disagreed.  It's not ironic but reasonable to value some risks while not valuing others.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

You think that playing a game and defending a nation are comparable activities?  

I’m not sure what you’re saying exactly. 

 

 

So I am curious. What war in your lifetime would you give the life of your son for to defend our country?

Do you think it is nobel killing other mothers sons?

This is what’s war is about. Not so nobel in my opinion 

Edited November 18, 2017 by california boy

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

See my response to Bluebell.  Maybe you can justify the killing of thousands upon thousands of lives but balk at sport injuries.  I can not.

Maybe that's not an apt interpretation what it means to defend your country or to play a ball game.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are far greater dangers to many Black Americans than being shot by a police officer. Being a Black fetus puts one in a very high probability of dying before even being born, and living in parts of Chicago puts one at a much greater risk of being shot by another Black American than being involved in a police shooting. Who’s taking the knee for them? Brain injuries from playing  football pale in comparison with those two holocausts.

If you're African American,  you will sit down with your parents and have "the talk" at some point. Not the sex talk, the talk about what to do when the police pull you over. Being pulled over by the police for a black person is a perilous situation. They're frequently pulled over because the police noticed they were black. Many don't survive the experience

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Gray

[california boy]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Personally, I think that war is sometimes justified and sometimes not.  I see no harm in protecting ourselves (and I do believe that it's noble to risk your life for a greater good) and/or others, but I know that war is a complicated thing and rarely a black and white issue.

But we weren't talking about justifying war.  We were talking about whether or not it's ironic that people view different risks differently.  You said that it was ironic, and I disagreed.  It's not ironic but reasonable to value some risks while not valuing others.

So what war in your lifetime are you willing to loose your son over?

Do you think it is Nobel killing some other mothers son?

This is the reality of war. Not so Nobel in my opinion

[california boy]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Maybe that's not an apt interpretation what it means to defend your country or to play a ball game.

But we are talking about the risk factors of BYU sponsored activities 

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course that should be a concern, but as far as I am concerned, abortion and murder and their accompanying problems are far more egregious for our Black community, get less attention, and even less action.

Let me make sure I understand you. Are you saying that the NFL players should not protest police brutality and systemic racism because abortion and murder among the African-American community are greater problems?

If so, you are engaged in the logical fallacy of a red herring. Whether or not abortion and murder are greater problems doesn't affect whether or not people should protest police brutality. Look back at my previous explanation:

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Applying your logic to problems would mean that everyone in the world would focus on only one problem -- the greatest one in the world (whatever that is) because if someone focused on something lesser we would just point out that there is a greater problem they should be focusing on.

That shows that your logic is flawed. You can't say "don't protest this because there are greater problems" because then we end up in the absurd situation of everyone in the entire world only protesting one problem.

If I didn't understand you correctly, please clarify your position.

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, california boy said:

So what war in your lifetime are you willing to loose your son over?

Do you think it is Nobel killing some other mothers son?

This is the reality of war. Not so Nobel in my opinion

Any war were someone needed to be protected and my son was willing to do it, I would be willing to let him. 

I don’t think it is noble to kill, but neither do I believe it is always evil. 

[california boy]

Just now, bluebell said:

Any war were someone needed to be protected and my son was willing to do it, I would be willing to let him. 

I don’t think it is noble to kill, but neither do I believe it is always evil. 

So are you saying that every war the U.S. had fought in your lifetime you would be ok with your son dying for?  If not, what wars in your lifetime has been worth the sacrifice of your sons life?

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

If you're African American,  you will sit down with your parents and have "the talk" at some point. Not the sex talk, the talk about what to do when the police pull you over. Being pulled over by the police for a black person is a perilous situation. They're frequently pulled over because the police noticed they were black. Many don't survive the experience

 

And this is a sad reality.  Nowadays...I can only imagine that at police headquarters..the rookies too.are getting "the talk"...it doesn't mater what color of skin anymore...it is just a divisive sad reality.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Jeanne