Gray Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Please just give a straight answer. To you, what does “many do not survive mean?” 1% of all traffic stops end in death? 5%, 25%, 50%? Simply read the link. That's what I mean by many. Black people are disproportionately more likely to be killed by police in traffic stops. 17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Millions of black babies have been aborted and tens of thousands of young black men and women have been murdered in our cities. I call that many. This is not racially targeted, so it's a red herring. If you personally feel that abortion is the same as murder, that's your choice, although it doesn't meet the legal or (Mormon) doctrinal definitions of that word. 17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Of course any death by police action should be investigated and prosecuted if it was wrongful. To me the huge numbers of deaths by abortion and murder should have at least as much scrutiny and even more remedial action. Then maybe start your own protest instead of changing the subject? 17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I got pulled over last Saturday for a moving infraction. The officer was verbally abusive and insulting, but I responded with apologies and called him sir. I didn’t try to grab his weapon, reach into my pocket, ask for his badge number, take a picture of him, curse him out. Granted I am not black, but I chose to cooperate and not confront him. Please give a summary or the pertinent excerpt of articles with a citation. I don’t have the inclination to spend my online time reading the multiple long articles you post. As rebuttal, I could post articles contradicting yours and then we just trade sources that support our positions. [Edit] I read the first half of your article. It does not support your claim of “many don’t survive.” If you read the first half of the article, then your questions have been answered. I'm sorry you don't think those lives don't count as "many". Black people are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops, violence and other abuse.
smac97 Posted November 21, 2017 Author Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Gray said: Quote Millions of black babies have been aborted and tens of thousands of young black men and women have been murdered in our cities. I call that many. This is not racially targeted, so it's a red herring. I think a reasonable argument can be made that abortion providers in America do, in fact, "target" minorities, particularly blacks. From the Washington Times (emphases added): Quote Planned Parenthood founded on racism, belief in protecting society against ‘the unfit’ By Rebecca Hagelin - - Sunday, April 23, 2017 Minorities crammed into impoverished areas in inner cities should not be having so many babies. And, of course, these minorities (including most of America’s immigrants) are inferior in the human race, as are the physically and mentally handicapped. We should require mandatory sterilizations of those less desirable and promote easy access to abortion. And since sex should be a free-for-all, we must provide birth control and abortions to teenagers too. It’s all for the greater good and for a more intelligent, liberated, healthier population. ... {S}uch are the foundational beliefs of this inherently racist organization and its celebrated founder, Margaret Sanger, who still is lauded on the Planned Parenthood website. Of course, in the lavish online praise of Sanger, conveniently absent is her advocacy for “a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted, or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring.” (The quote is from her article “A Plan for Peace.”) Or her promotion of the “American Baby Code,” in which she seeks to “protect society against the propagation and increase of the unfit.” Also missing is Sanger’s fear of her racist views being exposed, as recorded in a 1939 letter to an ally: “We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population.” Which is exactly what she set out and succeeded in doing. Planned Parenthood is largely the reason why black babies are aborted in America three times more often than white babies, and Hispanic preborns are killed 1½ times more often than whites. In fact, according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention research compiled by TooManyAborted.com, “Abortion is the number one killer of black lives in the United States. More than HIV. More than heart disease. More than cancer. Abortion snuffs out more black lives than all other causes of death combined.” Planned Parenthood masquerades as a benevolent organization, claiming to offer a full array of women’s health care services to disadvantaged women. From the way Planned Parenthood markets itself, one would think it offers basics such as mammograms and prenatal health care — especially for poor women living in the nation’s most impoverished neighborhoods. But it does not. Mammograms are nowhere to be found. And, as LiveAction.org recently revealed in an extensive investigation in the 41 states where undercover recordings are legal, 92 out of 97 clinics contacted admitted that they do not provide prenatal care. The bottom line is that those ultrasound machines in Planned Parenthood are used to facilitate the killing of preborn babies, not care for them. What Planned Parenthood does offer en masse in its “clinics” — which are strategically located in target areas such as college campuses and in impoverished, inner-city neighborhoods — are birth control and abortions. In fact, a baby is aborted at a Planned Parenthood clinic at an average rate of every 90 seconds. Why college campuses? Why poor, minority inner-city neighborhoods? And here: Quote While not news to some, the 2010 Census results revealed that Planned Parenthood is clearly targeting minority neighborhoods. 79% of its 165 surgical abortion facilities are within walking distance of Black American or Hispanic/Latino neighborhoods. Protecting Black Life’s Research has revealed that 62% of Planned Parenthood abortion facilities are within two miles of Black American neighborhoods, and 64% near Hispanic or Latino neighborhoods, making them “targeted neighborhoods.” The 131 cities highlighted in the research, using Google Map technology, clearly show that Planned Parenthood continues to pursue the eugenics philosophy of its founder, Margaret Sanger, who believed that Blacks and the poor were unfit to reproduce. Margaret Sanger dedicated her life to controlling the population of these “undesirables” by advancing birth control and sterilization in their neighborhoods. And here: Quote Sanger’s stated mission was to empower women to make their own reproductive choices. She did focus her efforts on minority communities, because that was where, due to poverty and limited access to health care, women were especially vulnerable to the effects of unplanned pregnancy. As she framed it, birth control was the fundamental women’s rights issue. “Enforced motherhood,” she wrote in 1914, “is the most complete denial of a woman’s right to life and liberty.” That’s not to say that Sanger didn’t also make some deeply disturbing statements in support of eugenics, the now-discredited movement to improve the overall health and fitness of humankind through selective breeding. She did, and very publicly. In a 1921 article, she wrote that, “the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.” And here: Planned Parenthood’s ties to eugenics go far beyond Margaret Sanger Thanks, -Smac 1
bluebell Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Are you saying that watching or attending extreme sport activities that can result in injury or death is immoral? I bring up Lou Whittaker again. He and his brother are mountain climbers and live in our area. They are the first Americans to summit Everest. I met him at a career day at a high school career day where he spoke about their business as mountain guides. In an accompanying slideshow he showed photos of many of their climbs. I was shocked by the number of his associates who had lost their lives over the years falling off mountains. Death and injury accompany motorized vehicle racing, skiing, snowmobile riding, hunting, scuba diving, Far more people are injured or die in traffic accidents than all sports combined. Could you please elaborate what you mean by moral? Is hiring Lou or his company as a climbing guide immoral? It might be immoral. Do I think that it was immoral for Romans to encourage men to kill others for sport by being willing spectators to such events? Yes I do. Do I think that watching football is immoral? I don't believe so, but I've never really studied the issue out or asked God about it so I can't say for sure. Now that we know it's destroying players abilities to think and reason and live a long life, it might be wrong to encourage such behavior. Beyond saying that, I think i'll just repost things I've already said you earlier in the thread because they are applicable still to the above post- We don't have to make decisions for others, but I think what we are talking about is making decisions for ourselves, such as is it moral to cheer on behavior that is known to cause significant harm to other people. My questions weren't about having a risk-free life but about trying to decide what our responsibility is to mitigate unnecessary risk so that we are capable of doing the work God asks of us (such as taking care of our families and serving others). There comes a point when a life of risk just becomes selfish, ungrateful to the God who gave it to us, and a waste. I don't know where that line is. Most adults are capable of seeing around corners, as the saying goes. We can't know exactly what's going to happen when we choose to do something, but we can know the probability of a bad outcome when we make certain choices. We can also know whether or not the risk of a bad outcome is worth the cost. I'm not talking about policing anyone else, i'm talking about doing a personal inventory and trying to figure out how carefully God expects us to treat our lives, when the risk is self serving. I don't think He expects us to never take self serving risks, but neither do I think that He condones all self serving risks. 1
Gray Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, smac97 said: I think a reasonable argument can be made that abortion providers in America do, in fact, "target" minorities, particularly blacks. From the Washington Times (emphases added): And here: And here: And here: Planned Parenthood’s ties to eugenics go far beyond Margaret Sanger Thanks, -Smac The Washington Times isn't really a credible source. This looks like propaganda.
Bernard Gui Posted November 22, 2017 Posted November 22, 2017 9 hours ago, Gray said: The Washington Times isn't really a credible source. This looks like propaganda. Shoot the messenger much? 1
Bernard Gui Posted November 22, 2017 Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Gray said: Simply read the link. That's what I mean by many. Black people are disproportionately more likely to be killed by police in traffic stops. This is not racially targeted, so it's a red herring. If you personally feel that abortion is the same as murder, that's your choice, although it doesn't meet the legal or (Mormon) doctrinal definitions of that word. Then maybe start your own protest instead of changing the subject? If you read the first half of the article, then your questions have been answered. I'm sorry you don't think those lives don't count as "many". Black people are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops, violence and other abuse. No, what you mean by "many" is far from clear. You are obfuscating that issue. A far greater percentage of black babies are aborted than white babies. If that is not racial, nothing is. I read your article and quoted excerpts that directly contradict your position. Your response? None. And I reject your attempt at reading my mind. You don't seem to be operating in good faith, so I won't engage you again on this topic. Edited November 22, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
strappinglad Posted November 22, 2017 Posted November 22, 2017 Oh what a tangled web we weave when the thread is on football. 4
Gray Posted November 22, 2017 Posted November 22, 2017 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Shoot the messenger much? It's not credible. Don't shoot the messenger!
Gray Posted November 22, 2017 Posted November 22, 2017 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: No, what you mean by "many" is far from clear. You are obfuscating that issue. I've been very clear, but you can't make someone understand what they don't want to understand. 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: A far greater percentage of black babies are aborted than white babies. If that is not racial, nothing is. You're suggesting black people have something against themselves? Get real please. And abortion isn't murder. 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I read your article and quoted excerpts that directly contradict your position. Your response? None. That's probably because you actually never quoted any excerpts that any way contradicted my position. 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: And I reject your attempt at reading my mind. You don't seem to be operating in good faith, so I won't engage you again on this topic. Probably best, I don't appreciate you inventing stories and distorting facts to try to win arguments.
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