Should BYU Drop its Football Program?

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The LDS Church teaches much about the sanctity of the human body.  Latter-day Saints are taught their bodies are "temples," such that the Church has a bunch of teachings about how we treat and use our bodies (Word of Wisdom, modest clothing, piercings/tattoos, Law of Chastity, etc.).  

 

The Church also teaches that one should observe  the Sabbath. And yet we (leaders as well as rank-and-file) wink at it when some of our members earn millions of dollars engaged in careers that week after week provide non-essential, non-vital entertainment to the masses on Sunday.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The is why Joseph Smith promoted pulling sticks.

Yeah, but then we would be concerned about hernias.

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am likewise a bit put off by the "celebrity" aspect of football (though it happens in other sports as well, so...).

Thanks,

-Smac

Rugby? What would New Zealand be without the All Blacks?

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That's my general assessment, too.

Perhaps.  And perhaps there are too many football fans in the Church and among the leadership for such a drastic change to get much traction.

The story in the OP is guessing that we are headed to such a collapse.

We'll see.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think there are a lot of football fans in leadership too.  Its really a popular sport in America.  I worry that future generations will look back at us and wonder how crazy we were as a society to have a sport like this.  Through a future lens football may seem quite barbaric.  

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Church also teaches that one should observe  the Sabbath. And yet we (leaders as well as rank-and-file) wink at it when some of our members earn millions of dollars engaged in careers that week after week provides non-essential, non-vital entertainment to the masses on Sunday.

Not only wink, but lionize them. 

[cinepro]

31 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Can't modern science develop a helmet that works ?

Obviously, the NFL is desperate for such a solution.  As smac97 points out, the problem isn't "protecting" the head.  It's somehow mitigating the velocity change from someone running as fast as they can and then having their head come to a complete stop as it hits the ground or another player (yet their brain keeps moving inside their head).

 

This is a new helmet design that tries to compensate for the problem:

https://www.wired.com/2016/01/the-zero1-flexible-football-helmet-may-save-players-brains/

Quote

Vicis’s helmet borrows ideas from the automotive industry, which has used plastic bumpers and crumple zones as protective measures for decades. “It’s a very challenging engineering problem,” Browd says. “Instead of trying to slow a car down over many feet or yards, we’re trying to slow these impacts down over 2.5 inches.” The Zero1, which was designed with the help of Seattle design studio Artefact, revolves around a multilayered system that begins with a flexible outer shell made from a bendable plastic and ends with an inner shell and liner that are meant to provide a more customized fit around the head.

Apart from an equipment adaptation, if "Football" wants to survive, it may have to change how the game is played and prohibit actions that are more likely to lead to concussion.  It might be a different game, but at least it will survive.

 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think there are a lot of football fans in leadership too.  Its really a popular sport in America.  I worry that future generations will look back at us and wonder how crazy we were as a society to have a sport like this.  Through a future lens football may seem quite barbaric.  

The same goes for boxing and (most) MMA.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 10, 2017 by smac97

[Bernard Gui]

34 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Switch to rugby. Has impacts but they are usually not as abrupt or head to head in opposite directions.

Not the rugby I watch. Plus those dudes don’t have any padding whatsoever. I remember attending a BYU/UU match. The Y had a little guy from South Africa who was a great player. He was running full-tilt with the ball when he was smashed head-on by a Polynesian guy twice his size from the U. He went down and was out cold. The game continued around him, but after a while he got up, shook it off, and said, “Man! What a hit!” and got right back in the action.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The LDS Church teaches much about the sanctity of the human body.  Latter-day Saints are taught their bodies are "temples," such that the Church has a bunch of teachings about how we treat and use our bodies (Word of Wisdom, modest clothing, piercings/tattoos, Law of Chastity, etc.).  

The topic of this thread is whether BYU should continue to sponsor a sport that has very substantial (and frequently actualized) risks of injuries to the players' brains, joints, spine, etc.

Interesting.

Thanks,

-Smac

Almost all sports have innate risk of injury. Should we abandon them all? I dislocated my knee playing flag football at BYU which 50 years later resulted in knee replacement surgery.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not the rugby I watch. Plus thos dudes don’t have any padding whatsoever. I remember attending a BYU/UU match. The Y had a little guy from South Africa who was a great player. He was running full-tilt with the ball when he was smashed head-on by a Polynesian guy twice his size from the U. He went down and was out cold. The game continued around him, but after a while he got up, shook it off, and said, “Man! What a hit!” and got right back in the action.

Okay, fine. Replace it with men’s synchronized swimming.

[bluebell]

Usually the football program brings in a lot of money that can't easily be replaced.  Is that true of BYU as well?  Do they rely on their football program for money and standing in the university community (standing helps bring in students, for example, so having a reputation as a school of good repute can't be discounted).

I don't watch college football (and barely watch professional, though not at all this year because of the politics that have been involved) so I don't have a dog in the fight.  I won't let my kids play tackle football though, only flag.  Not only is tackle football dangerous, but the city teams are insane for the resources they use up.  It costs $200 to play for the season, they require daily practices (where kids often get concussions) and you have to be available all day every saturday for games, traveling out of town at your own cost sometimes, for months at a time.  That's more of a family sacrifice than it's worth in my opinion.

Plus, the parents and coaches at flag football are sometimes more than I can take.  I can't imagine it at a higher level.  I envision a lot of adults being really embarrassing.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Almost all sports have innate risk of injury. Should we abandon them all? I dislocated my knee playing flag football at BYU which 50 years later resulted in knee replacement surgery.

They all have a risk. Football’s risk is just absurdly high and for some positions almost a certainty.

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They all have a risk. Football’s risk is just absurdly high and for some positions almost a certainty.

Certainly so. Who forces them to play?

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if BYU should consider dropping its football program.  I am aware that it has a deep and strong and rich heritage and tradition, but football seems to be too dangerous a sport.  Consider, e.g., this (emphases added):

What do you think?  Is sponsoring football a good idea for the Church, given the potential (and actual) injuries involved?  There are other factors as well (tickets have become crazy expensive, etc.).

Thanks,

-Smac

My personal feeling is this is the start of a conspiracy now that my son's school, USU, can provide family entertainment by beating BYU at will  

What is in the best interest of the students I believe should be the question, so I think the students themselves should have a large stake in this answer. A potential replacement is rugby, but BYU already has a team, and in the pros there are still significant numbers of spinal injuries. I have a cousin who decided to become a kicker in college football because he would like to go pro, but doesn't want the permanent damage.

Traditionally, I am sure football has provided a major source of income for BYU, but this should not be determinative. As Jeanne points out money seems to have changed this sport in some undesirable ways. Personally, I would not want any of my children to pursue football, but I don't feel I have the right to impose my feelings on others.

As a side note, I will say I have basically stopped watching football, although that happened long before the latest NFL thing - that only makes me more prone not to. When I reactivated in the Church, Sunday football just didn't seem appropriate for me anymore. I did watch a little Mon and Thurs night football if one of the teams I liked was playing. I watch at least a little college football. Perhaps the market can force a change. I hate to see the players getting used up so they have no future after football. Perhaps colleges can implement some rule changes which will make the sport a little safer.  While there are a lot of wonderful stories involving football and changed lives, I feel there are also too many sad stories. It would be kind of sad to see the BYU tradition of football get sidelined, and I think what would be optimal is for the game to be changed somehow to make it significantly safer, although ultimately that would probably entail losing the helmet and most of the padding to discourage the heavy hitting - maybe some hybrid of football and rugby? I don't know - just thinking out loud.

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not only wink, but lionize them. 

Yeah, I know. I was trying to put it diplomatically.

 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not the rugby I watch. Plus thos dudes don’t have any padding whatsoever. I remember attending a BYU/UU match. The Y had a little guy from South Africa who was a great player. He was running full-tilt with the ball when he was smashed head-on by a Polynesian guy twice his size from the U. He went down and was out cold. The game continued around him, but after a while he got up, shook it off, and said, “Man! What a hit!” and got right back in the action.

Rugby definitely has some of the same issues football has: http://www.traumaticbraininjury.net/first-soccer-and-rugby-players-diagnosed-with-cte/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1728218-rugby-player-welfare-update-confirmed-link-between-rugby-and-cte

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Okay, fine. Replace it with men’s synchronized swimming.

Now there’s a sport I can get really excited about. That and ball tossing. I enjoy a rough game of bocce now and then too.

Hey, I’m a wimpy violinist, so who am I to speak? On the other hand, I have some injuries caused by too much fiddling. Painful, but not life threatening. For example, violinists get a “practice mark” under the left side of the jaw caused by constant contact with the chin rest. It’s kind of like a combination boil/ingrown hair and can get infected. Try running your Gillette over that! Come to think of it, I could get a flesh-eating bacterial infection or MERSA there. Now I’m getting worried.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Now there’s a sport I can get really excited about. That and ball tossing. I enjoy a rough game of bocce now and then too.

Hey, I’m a wimpy violinist, so who am I to speak? On the other hand, I have some injuries caused by too much fiddling. Painful, but not life threatening. For example, violinists get a “practice mark” under the left side of the jaw caused by constant contact with the chin rest. It’s kind of like a combination boil/ingrown hair and can get infected. Try running your Gillette over that!

I play the guitar, but I am a casual, self-taught hobbyist. Even so, I am resigned to having constant callouses on my four left fingertips. I hope it doesn't develop into cancer or something.

 

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Almost all sports have innate risk of injury.

Yes.  It's a judgment call.  But not all risked injuries are created equal.  Swimmers seldom suffer from traumatic brain injury.  

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Should we abandon them all? I dislocated my knee playing flag football at BYU which 50 years later resulted in knee replacement surgery.

No, not all.  And maybe not even football.  It's a judgment call.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bernard Gui]

There are people that really enjoy the danger, violence, and excitement of extreme solo or competitive contact sports and risky professions. Should we regulate these types of activities for their protection? My son Machississimo is an adrenaline junky, but his choices were being the guy who kicks in the door so his Army squad can bust in and take out the bad dudes and jumping on and off moving freight trains as he wanders around North America as a homeless vet. Dangerous stuff, but it’s what he does.

[Bernard Gui]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I play the guitar, but I am a casual, self-taught hobbyist. Even so, I am resigned to having constant callouses on my four left fingertips. I hope it doesn't develop into cancer or something.

 

The guitarist in my old bluegrass band Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge had the worse case of guitar fingers I have ever seen. They looked like elephant feet.

[Bernard Gui]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  It's a judgment call.  But not all risked injuries are created equal.  Swimmers seldom suffer from traumatic brain injury.  

No, not all.  And maybe not even football.  It's a judgment call.

Thanks,

-Smac

Indeed. How much injury is acceptable? I saw a description of Evel Knievel’s lifetime injuries a while back. Wow. Also attended a lecture by American mountain climber Lou Whittaker. The number of his friends who died on mountains was unbelievable.

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. How much injury is acceptable? I saw a description of Evel Knievel’s lifetime injuries a while back. Wow. Also attended a lecture by American mountain climber Lou Whittaker. The number of his friends who died on mountains was unbelievable.

I think some of this, when looked it from a spiritual perspective, becomes an issue of how does God feel about us needlessly risking our lives or cutting them short because of risky decisions, who's only payout is self-centered?

Do we have a responsibility to mitigate the amount of self-serving risk there is in our lives, especially if we have a spouse or children?

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The same goes for boxing and (most) MMA.

Thanks,

-Smac

I totally agree, I'm not personally fan of those sports really.  I imagine hockey might have a component of hard impacts too.  

[smac97]

51 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. How much injury is acceptable? 

More to the point, how much injury is acceptable in sports which are sponsored and subsidized by the LDS Church?

Thanks,

-Smac  

Edited November 10, 2017 by smac97