Why do we worship?

[CA Steve]

So the thread on the existence of evil has me thinking about how the LDS response to thodicy involves a God who is not omnipotent in the classic sense, a God who is a contingent being as opposed to a God who is the ground of all existence. In other words, the LDS God is coeternal with other things like matter and a certain set of rules or laws, like the laws of justice or laws that govern binding things on earth as well as in heaven. Additionally in LDS theology , some believe that we can become Gods ourselves or, at least, like God, in that we will share in many of His powers. Now you may or may not agree with that summary but I think my following question still holds since it can even apply to a truly omnipotent being, on on whom everything else is dependent.

 

Why do we worship God?. I know that sounds like a silly question, but the only response I can come up with is.... well... because He is God, and I am guessing that I am looking for something a bit less circular, something that actually defines what it is to be divine, what it is that is worthy of such a level of attention. For me, the fact that He is our creator does not seem to reach the level or requiring worship. My parents are responsible for bringing me into this world and providing an environment that nourished me and allowed me to grow, sort of a microcosm of what God has done for the world, but while I love and honor my parents, certainly I do not worship them. Given the advances in science, it is not hard to imagine a future society of humans (if we survive that long) where creating life is simply a scientific process that can be accomplished from start to finish. It is also easy to imagine a sufficiently advanced alien race whose technology would mimic anything we thought as Godly powers, certainly we would not consider such a race as the equivalent of God and worthy of worship.

 

So, what is it in the nature of God that makes Him worthy of worship?

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

So, what is it in the nature of God that makes Him worthy of worship?

Some of my thoughts:  He's perfect and still loves us more than we can comprehend.  This perfect Being's only work and glory is to help me to become like He is.  He's our perfectly righteous father.  

 

[CV75]

40 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

So the thread on the existence of evil has me thinking about how the LDS response to thodicy involves a God who is not omnipotent in the classic sense, a God who is a contingent being as opposed to a God who is the ground of all existence. In other words, the LDS God is coeternal with other things like matter and a certain set of rules or laws, like the laws of justice or laws that govern binding things on earth as well as in heaven. Additionally in LDS theology , some believe that we can become Gods ourselves or, at least, like God, in that we will share in many of His powers. Now you may or may not agree with that summary but I think my following question still holds since it can even apply to a truly omnipotent being, on on whom everything else is dependent.

 

Why do we worship God?. I know that sounds like a silly question, but the only response I can come up with is.... well... because He is God, and I am guessing that I am looking for something a bit less circular, something that actually defines what it is to be divine, what it is that is worthy of such a level of attention. For me, the fact that He is our creator does not seem to reach the level or requiring worship. My parents are responsible for bringing me into this world and providing an environment that nourished me and allowed me to grow, sort of a microcosm of what God has done for the world, but while I love and honor my parents, certainly I do not worship them. Given the advances in science, it is not hard to imagine a future society of humans (if we survive that long) where creating life is simply a scientific process that can be accomplished from start to finish. It is also easy to imagine a sufficiently advanced alien race whose technology would mimic anything we thought as Godly powers, certainly we would not consider such a race as the equivalent of God and worthy of worship.

 

So, what is it in the nature of God that makes Him worthy of worship?

It think is part of what is taught D&C 88:40. We cleave to Him because of the things we have in common with Him, and He likewise cleaves to us, though we can only be aware of that to the extent we receive Him.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

Why do we worship God?. I know that sounds like a silly question, but the only response I can come up with is.... well... because He is God, and I am guessing that I am looking for something a bit less circular, something that actually defines what it is to be divine, what it is that is worthy of such a level of attention.

So, what is it in the nature of God that makes Him worthy of worship?

The quality that makes Him worthy of worship is his goodness.  Christ said, "why callest thou me good?  There is none good but God."

But it is more than that too.  Worship is a sign/symbol of our submissiveness and submission to God. It is a token of our commitment to follow His will above our own. 

On a more theoretical note, I believe that both God and man are empowered in righteousness through the practice of worship.  The scriptures suggest that God's power is only manifest through the worship of Him.  In the D&C, Lucifer sought after God's "honor"; the scripture explains that the honor (worship) of God is His power (D&C 29:36).  In D&C 84, it also states that through the ordinances (a token of worship and covenant to obey), the power of Godliness is manifest.  We can see this play out in the manifestation of God's power in the creation.  The creation was only possible through the worship of God of all matter organized, as all matter is intelligence.  God spoke and all of creation obeyed through the worship and submission to God's will.  It has been said that miracles are nothing more than matter/intelligences obeying God's word. 

If there was no worship of God, His word would have had no effect.  Without obedience of worship, God loses his power.  He has earned the trust of all of creation through His enduring goodness.  It is about trust.  We obey and worship because His promises are good and He is trust worthy.  So, we see that God is empowered through worship.  But we too are empowered through the worship of God through the fulfillment of covenant promises.  It is a win-win. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

For me one of the reasons is the same reason we worship Christ.
Because these are men like us who through their faith, obedience, efforts, increase in knowledge, etc reach a level of perfection and Godhood.
It is the fact that they have set the example, walked the walk, talked the talked, and proven themselves worthy in every conceivable way to be worshipped.

I've said before I see little to worship in a supernatural being that made people for some reason.  It is the closeness of relationship that makes them worthy of worship to me.
 

[Bobbieaware]

5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

So the thread on the existence of evil has me thinking about how the LDS response to thodicy involves a God who is not omnipotent in the classic sense, a God who is a contingent being as opposed to a God who is the ground of all existence. In other words, the LDS God is coeternal with other things like matter and a certain set of rules or laws, like the laws of justice or laws that govern binding things on earth as well as in heaven. Additionally in LDS theology , some believe that we can become Gods ourselves or, at least, like God, in that we will share in many of His powers. Now you may or may not agree with that summary but I think my following question still holds since it can even apply to a truly omnipotent being, on on whom everything else is dependent.

 

Why do we worship God?. I know that sounds like a silly question, but the only response I can come up with is.... well... because He is God, and I am guessing that I am looking for something a bit less circular, something that actually defines what it is to be divine, what it is that is worthy of such a level of attention. For me, the fact that He is our creator does not seem to reach the level or requiring worship. My parents are responsible for bringing me into this world and providing an environment that nourished me and allowed me to grow, sort of a microcosm of what God has done for the world, but while I love and honor my parents, certainly I do not worship them. Given the advances in science, it is not hard to imagine a future society of humans (if we survive that long) where creating life is simply a scientific process that can be accomplished from start to finish. It is also easy to imagine a sufficiently advanced alien race whose technology would mimic anything we thought as Godly powers, certainly we would not consider such a race as the equivalent of God and worthy of worship.

 

So, what is it in the nature of God that makes Him worthy of worship?

Doctrine and Covenants 93 explains the who, what and reason why we must worship God. I encourage you to read it because you will receive the answer to your question directly from the pen of John the Baptist. But I will at least say that worshipping God is inextricably linked to fervently wanting to beome like him, and faithfully doing all that is necessary to make becoming like him actually happen.

As an aside, I believe you’ll have to rethink your Idea of a God who is a contingent being and not fully omnipotent. First, the law cannot exist independently outside of God because God IS the law. The law cannot exist outside of an intelligent mind. This is why God says he is the law...

9 Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life. (3 Nephi 15) 

Second, your idea of things existing independently and outside of God is at odds with the scriptures...

41 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. (D&C 88)

As far as you final question is concerned, God is worthy of worship because he is the greatest of all conquering heros. In the case of the God we call Jesus Christ, he allowed himself enter into a state of weakness, and in that weakened condition engage in a life and death struggle that was so horrifically difficult and unimaginably painful that, by his own admission, he shrank from taking upon himself the responsibility He plead with his Father no less than three times to take that experience of bitterest agony away from him. Even so, he resolved to do his Father’s will and descended into misery and woe below all things. And even though the devil and his followers threw every spiritual, emotional and physical weapon in their arsenal at him with full, unmitigated force, to break his spirit and cause him to give up on God, he kept the faith proving that the goodness and love of God are more powerful than evil and hate. We worship him because he is the most courageous conquering hero who ever lived.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Avatar4321]

we worship Him because we love Him. We love Him because He first loved us.

[smac97]

6 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Why do we worship?

Because it is healthy for us.  It gives us a healthy perspective on our relationship with God, and our similarities and differences with Him.  It helps us to develop good attributes.

Quote

I know that sounds like a silly question, but the only response I can come up with is.... well... because He is God, and I am guessing that I am looking for something a bit less circular, something that actually defines what it is to be divine, what it is that is worthy of such a level of attention.

I am persuaded that commandments to worship God pertain principally to our welfare.  "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."  (Moses 1:39)

Quote

For me, the fact that He is our creator does not seem to reach the level or requiring worship.

There is no "requirement" for worship.  It is a voluntary thing.

In any event, I think it's a matter of perspective, which cannot be compelled.  It can only be sought and, with some effort, obtained.  Consider Mosiah 4:11:

Quote

And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come...

So the merits of worshipping God are not axiomatic.  It's not a just-take-my-word-for-it kind of thing.  The desire for it is something that must be sought, and then, to some extent, obtained, and thereafter maintained.

Quote

My parents are responsible for bringing me into this world and providing an environment that nourished me and allowed me to grow, sort of a microcosm of what God has done for the world, but while I love and honor my parents, certainly I do not worship them.

Yep.  We are to "honor" and venerate them.  But "worship" is much more exclusive.

Quote

Given the advances in science, it is not hard to imagine a future society of humans (if we survive that long) where creating life is simply a scientific process that can be accomplished from start to finish. It is also easy to imagine a sufficiently advanced alien race whose technology would mimic anything we thought as Godly powers, certainly we would not consider such a race as the equivalent of God and worthy of worship.

I think there is more to it than God as Creator (though that is probably the foundational bit).  Joseph Smith put it this way:

Quote

Let us here observe that three things are necessary for any rational and intelligent being to exercise faith in God unto life and salvation. First, the idea that he actually exists; Secondly, a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes; Thirdly, an actual knowledge that the course of life which one is pursuing is according to His will.

It's that second bit that I think is noteworthy here.  I think if we were to have "a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes," then worshipping God would be as natural to us as breathing.  

We are told that "{s}ome day day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ."  My personal opinion is that at this day the divinity of Jesus Christ will be so apparent, that there will be no viable contrivance to deny it.  The trick, then, is to bow the knee before then.

Quote

So, what is it in the nature of God that makes Him worthy of worship?

You could start here: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/attributes-of-god.html?lang=eng&letter=A

And here: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-1-our-father-in-heaven?lang=eng

And here: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/God,_Attributes_of

Thanks,

-Smac

[thesometimesaint]

Imitation is the sincerest form of worship.

[Five Solas]

On 10/31/2017 at 9:28 AM, bluebell said:

Some of my thoughts:  He's perfect and still loves us more than we can comprehend.  This perfect Being's only work and glory is to help me to become like He is.  He's our perfectly righteous father. 

Option A. Would you say LDS worship the LDS Heavenly Father/LDS Jesus because of their Gods' attributes (e.g., love, righteousness)?

OR

Option B. Would you say LDS first worship their Gods and then admire/respect whatever attributes their Gods might reveal about themselves through their commands?

It's a bit of which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg?  (And the answer can't be "both.")

Recalling the "Would you worship a God who commanded lying?" thread--LDS posters were pretty evenly divided in the poll.  But I thought this poster made the case for Option B from an LDS perspective-- 

On 10/28/2017 at 2:57 AM, MrSpruceMoose said:

An important thing to remember about commandments is where they come from.  We worship Jesus Christ. Part of this is doing what he has asked us to do. Nephi was commanded to kill Laban even though it is a commandment to not kill. The law of Moses was fulfilled and Christ established his doctrine. Polygamy came and went. If we are given a commandment, then that commandment can just as easily be rescinded.  We have our commandments and it is our job to follow them the best we can. If those commandments change and we have our hearts set on Christ, then we will do our best to follow them because it is what he asked of us.  

If the LDS God commands you to lie, you lie.  If he commands you to murder, you murder (in the case of Laban).  And if they give inconsistent & contradictory commands (murder / don't murder) then they've revealed something else about their nature.  And while many may find this horrific and completely unacceptable, the proper LDS response is one of worship.

I realize I've worded it strongly, but it's at least an interesting question, isn't it?

--Erik

_______________________________________________________________

You must take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face.
--W. C. Fields

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Option A. Would you say LDS worship the LDS Heavenly Father/LDS Jesus because of their Gods' attributes (e.g., love, righteousness)?

OR

Option B. Would you say LDS first worship their Gods and then admire/respect whatever attributes their Gods might reveal about themselves through their commands?

It's a bit of which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg?  (And the answer can't be "both.")

Recalling the "Would you worship a God who commanded lying?" thread--LDS posters were pretty evenly divided in the poll.  But I thought this poster made the case for Option B from an LDS perspective-- 

Is it possible to worship a God that you know nothing about?

[Five Solas]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is it possible to worship a God that you know nothing about?

Interesting question, but I think your premise may be flawed.  In his Letter to the Romans, Paul tells us God's qualities (attributes) are visible in creation.  He goes on to say men are without excuse (Romans 1:20). 

--Erik

[smac97]

30 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Option A. Would you say LDS worship the LDS Heavenly Father/LDS Jesus because of their Gods' attributes (e.g., love, righteousness)?

OR

Option B. Would you say LDS first worship their Gods and then admire/respect whatever attributes their Gods might reveal about themselves through their commands?

It's a bit of which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg?  (And the answer can't be "both.")

I'd go with Option A.

Quote

Recalling the "Would you worship a God who commanded lying?" thread--LDS posters were pretty evenly divided in the poll.  But I thought this poster made the case for Option B from an LDS perspective-- 

Quote

An important thing to remember about commandments is where they come from.  We worship Jesus Christ. Part of this is doing what he has asked us to do. Nephi was commanded to kill Laban even though it is a commandment to not kill. The law of Moses was fulfilled and Christ established his doctrine. Polygamy came and went. If we are given a commandment, then that commandment can just as easily be rescinded.  We have our commandments and it is our job to follow them the best we can. If those commandments change and we have our hearts set on Christ, then we will do our best to follow them because it is what he asked of us.  

If the LDS God commands you to lie, you lie. 

I can think of some extreme circumstances under which deceit may be necessary.  Strategems in times of war, for example, appear to be specifically justified in Alma 43:30. 

And then there are the "Are you hiding Jews in your attic"-style scenarios.  Again, extremes.

The general rule of honesty, however, is virtually always the way to go.

And I note that "If the LDS God commands you to lie, you lie" is a contrivance of your making, not ours.

Quote

If he commands you to murder, you murder (in the case of Laban). 

Laban was not murdered.  Murder requires malice and premeditation.  Nephi had neither.  See more here.

And again, this is a contrivance of your making, not ours.

Funny how that works.

Quote

And if they give inconsistent & contradictory commands (murder / don't murder) then they've revealed something else about their nature. 

And what is that?

Quote

And while many may find this horrific and completely unacceptable, the proper LDS response is one of worship.

I realize I've worded it strongly, but it's at least an interesting question, isn't it?

"Worded it strongly" = "Distorting LDS teachings beyond recognition."

"Worded it strongly" = "Bearing false witness against your neighbor."

Nope.  No "interesting question" there.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 2, 2017 by smac97

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Interesting question, but I think your premise may be flawed.  In his Letter to the Romans, Paul tells us God's qualities (attributes) are visible in creation.  He goes on to say men are without excuse (Romans 1:20). 

--Erik

I think that Paul's premise, as you understand it, is flawed.  

How does creation alone teach us about the gospel of Jesus Christ?  How does it teach us about the resurrection, faith in Christ, repentance, the Atonement?  How does the creation teach us that God is all knowing?  How does the creation teach us that God is all loving?    

In my understanding, the definition of religious worship, is "love, reverence, service, and devotion for God."  How can the creation alone teach us to love, reverence, serve, and be devoted to God?

The scriptures teach that the only reason that we love God is because He first loved us.  They also teach us that we don't love Him unless we obey His commandments.  The creation speaks that there is a God, but it alone cannot teach us what we need to know to worship God and be with Him after this life is over.

 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that Paul's premise, as you understand it, is flawed.  

How does creation alone teach us about the gospel of Jesus Christ?  

Here's my two bits:

Bit No. 1: "The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." (Alma 30:44)

Bit No. 2: "Let us here observe that three things are necessary for any rational and intelligent being to exercise faith in God unto life and salvation. First, the idea that he actually exists; Secondly, a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes; Thirdly, an actual knowledge that the course of life which one is pursuing is according to His will."  (Lectures on Faith, Lecture Three 2-5)

I don't think "creation alone" teaches much.  But to the extent it does, it is the inkling that God exists.  From the existence of the creation (particularly the complexity and order we see) we can choose to infer the existence of the creator.

That said, I think you are correct that "creation alone" is not sufficient.  

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The scriptures teach that the only reason that we love God is because He first loved us.  They also teach us that we don't love Him unless we obey His commandments.  The creation speaks that there is a God, but it alone cannot teach us what we need to know to worship God and be with Him after this life is over.

That's true.  Applying Joseph Smith's quote above, "creation alone" is perhaps part of the first element (creation helps us comprehend "the idea that {God} actually exists"), and the second (being "creator" is part of God's "character, perfections, and attributes").  But it does not help much with the third element ("that the course of life which one is pursuing is according to His will").  And it is clearly not sufficient for the first and second elements anyway.  For that, we need . . . revelation.  And that entails prophets and apostles.

So I agree that "creation alone" is insufficient.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Gray]

On 10/31/2017 at 11:19 AM, CA Steve said:

So the thread on the existence of evil has me thinking about how the LDS response to thodicy involves a God who is not omnipotent in the classic sense, a God who is a contingent being as opposed to a God who is the ground of all existence. In other words, the LDS God is coeternal with other things like matter and a certain set of rules or laws, like the laws of justice or laws that govern binding things on earth as well as in heaven. Additionally in LDS theology , some believe that we can become Gods ourselves or, at least, like God, in that we will share in many of His powers. Now you may or may not agree with that summary but I think my following question still holds since it can even apply to a truly omnipotent being, on on whom everything else is dependent.

 

Why do we worship God?. I know that sounds like a silly question, but the only response I can come up with is.... well... because He is God, and I am guessing that I am looking for something a bit less circular, something that actually defines what it is to be divine, what it is that is worthy of such a level of attention. For me, the fact that He is our creator does not seem to reach the level or requiring worship. My parents are responsible for bringing me into this world and providing an environment that nourished me and allowed me to grow, sort of a microcosm of what God has done for the world, but while I love and honor my parents, certainly I do not worship them. Given the advances in science, it is not hard to imagine a future society of humans (if we survive that long) where creating life is simply a scientific process that can be accomplished from start to finish. It is also easy to imagine a sufficiently advanced alien race whose technology would mimic anything we thought as Godly powers, certainly we would not consider such a race as the equivalent of God and worthy of worship.

 

So, what is it in the nature of God that makes Him worthy of worship?

Surely God doesn't need to be worshiped. I think we do it because it makes our lives richer. 

[The Nehor]

Once a person knows God the question of why someone should worship Him seems silly.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Once a person knows God the question of why someone should worship Him seems silly.

This. It is the natural and immediate response, I have found.

[CA Steve]

I appreciate all the replies and this weekend I will try and respond to few more but I'd like to follow up on Nevo's and Hamba Tuhan's response now a bit.

First let me say I believe worship to be personal , so I do not consider any answer here wrong as it applies to the poster. But my questions are in that same personal nature,  in that the answers may not resonate with me or just lead to more questions on my part.

The answer that knowing God negates the need to consider why we should worship Him, seems quite circular to me. History is replete with people who have worshiped false gods, clearly these people did not know the God we worship. Is the answer just some form of "No True Scottsman" response where we dismiss all other forms of worship because the are not worshiping the "True" God.?

Given the billions of people who have worshiped a different god or gods, why is it silly to ask ourselves, even if we think we know God, why we worship Him. Maybe if those who worshiped the wrong gods asked themselves the same question they may have seen their error?

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

The answer that knowing God negates the need to consider why we should worship Him, seems quite circular to me. History is replete with people who have worshiped false gods, clearly these people did not know the God we worship. Is the answer just some form of "No True Scottsman" response where we dismiss all other forms of worship because the are not worshiping the "True" God.?

 

From my perspective, "knowing God" does not negate the need to consider why we should worship Him, it is the answer that comes after we have considered why we should worship Him.  In other words, worshipping God because we know Him is the answer that comes following consideration of the question.  It does not replace or negate consideration.

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I appreciate all the replies and this weekend I will try and respond to few more but I'd like to follow up on Nevo's and Hamba Tuhan's response now a bit.

First let me say I believe worship to be personal , so I do not consider any answer here wrong as it applies to the poster. But my questions are in that same personal nature,  in that the answers may not resonate with me or just lead to more questions on my part.

The answer that knowing God negates the need to consider why we should worship Him, seems quite circular to me. History is replete with people who have worshiped false gods, clearly these people did not know the God we worship. Is the answer just some form of "No True Scottsman" response where we dismiss all other forms of worship because the are not worshiping the "True" God.?

Given the billions of people who have worshiped a different god or gods, why is it silly to ask ourselves, even if we think we know God, why we worship Him. Maybe if those who worshiped the wrong gods asked themselves the same question they may have seen their error?

People can worship for other reasons. There are LDS who do not know God at all. Does not change my answer.

I stand by my statement that knowing God does make the question of why you should worship Him sound silly. It is a natural response. Well, either that or intense fear or hatred but I am not that irredeemably wicked right now so little experience there.

Edited November 3, 2017 by The Nehor

[3DOP]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:35 AM, bluebell said:

I think that Paul's premise, as you understand it, is flawed.  

How does creation alone teach us about the gospel of Jesus Christ?  How does it teach us about the resurrection, faith in Christ, repentance, the Atonement?  How does the creation teach us that God is all knowing?  How does the creation teach us that God is all loving?    

In my understanding, the definition of religious worship, is "love, reverence, service, and devotion for God."  How can the creation alone teach us to love, reverence, serve, and be devoted to God?

The scriptures teach that the only reason that we love God is because He first loved us.  They also teach us that we don't love Him unless we obey His commandments.  The creation speaks that there is a God, but it alone cannot teach us what we need to know to worship God and be with Him after this life is over.

 

It might seem contradictory to have "liked" your post, bluebell, in opposition to Sola's use of Rom 1:20. I liked his, because Sola sees that there is no excuse for atheism. I like yours because you see that there are possible excuses for not having explicit faith in Jesus Christ.

edited to add...if I have correctly understood you both.

Rory

Edited November 5, 2017 by 3DOP

[Five Solas]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:35 AM, bluebell said:

I think that Paul's premise, as you understand it, is flawed.  

How does creation alone teach us about the gospel of Jesus Christ?  How does it teach us about the resurrection, faith in Christ, repentance, the Atonement?  How does the creation teach us that God is all knowing?  How does the creation teach us that God is all loving?    

In my understanding, the definition of religious worship, is "love, reverence, service, and devotion for God."  How can the creation alone teach us to love, reverence, serve, and be devoted to God?

The scriptures teach that the only reason that we love God is because He first loved us.  They also teach us that we don't love Him unless we obey His commandments.  The creation speaks that there is a God, but it alone cannot teach us what we need to know to worship God and be with Him after this life is over.

Recall what I was responding to, bluebell.  Your words, "Is it possible to worship a God that you know nothing about?"  You italicized "nothing" for emphasis.  And that simply isn't possible, for the reason I gave. 

But I've said nothing herein about whether creation reveals anything more than God as Creator.  And rather than conceding your original flawed premise, you've simply launched another idea (God as Redeemer) together with an allegation that I've somehow missed the obvious.  C'mon bluebell - our readers deserve a bit better than this. 

But since you've now got us, awkwardly, on to that topic--let me just say I don't disagree at all.  Creation reveals God the Creator, but it's Scripture that reveals God the Redeemer in Christ. 

Now with this little sideshow hopefully out of our way, I'd love to hear how you'd answer my original question (Option A vs. Option B).  God's commands reveal God's attributes.  And in the LDS canon, the LDS Gods command some unexpected things.  LDS poster MrSpruceMoose gave us one example (see his quote above that I copied from the other thread).  And his words incline me to think it must be Option B.  But what do you say?

--Erik   

__________________________________________________

None of us are free
If one of us are chained
None of us are free

--Solomon Burke/Blind Boys of Alabama, 2002

Edited November 5, 2017 by Five Solas
spelling

[Meerkat]

On 10/31/2017 at 10:47 AM, pogi said:

If there was no worship of God, His word would have had no effect.  Without obedience of worship, God loses his power.  He has earned the trust of all of creation through His enduring goodness.  It is about trust.  We obey and worship because His promises are good and He is trust worthy.  So, we see that God is empowered through worship.  But we too are empowered through the worship of God through the fulfillment of covenant promises.  It is a win-win. 

Yes. We, His creation, live in a state of grateful worship.  And signs follow those of us who believe-- even miracles.  I appreciated CA Steve's reference to honoring his parents.  There are three people in my life who approach the level of my feelings and gratitude to my Creator: my Wife, my Mother and my Father.  Why?  Because they have each proven to me of their undying love and willingness to sacrifice greatly for me.  I would trust them with my life and fortune.  I would gladly live in a tent in the woods for them.  They are not at the level of God in my worship.  But they are right up there.  Some, not all, of our children are getting close.  No disrespect intended, and maybe me feelings are wrong to be a respecter of persons with my own children.  I do love them all deeply.  Some are easier to love than others.  The depth of my love and trust seems to correlate with their honesty, integrity and respect they freely show to my wife and me.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by Meerkat

[bluebell]

22 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Recall what I was responding to, bluebell.  Your words, "Is it possible to worship a God that you know nothing about?"  You italicized "nothing" for emphasis.  And that simply isn't possible, for the reason I gave. 

But I've said nothing herein about whether creation reveals anything more than God as Creator.  And rather than conceding your original flawed premise, you've simply launched another idea (God as Redeemer) together with an allegation that I've somehow missed the obvious.  C'mon bluebell - our readers deserve a bit better than this. 

But since you've now got us, awkwardly, on to that topic--let me just say I don't disagree at all.  Creation reveals God the Creator, but it's Scripture that reveals God the Redeemer in Christ. 

Now with this little sideshow hopefully out of our way, I'd love to hear how you'd answer my original question (Option A vs. Option B).  God's commands reveal God's attributes.  And in the LDS canon, the LDS Gods command some unexpected things.  LDS poster MrSpruceMoose gave us one example (see his quote above that I copied from the other thread).  And his words incline me to think it must be Option B.  But what do you say?

--Erik   

__________________________________________________

None of us are free
If one of us are chained
None of us are free

--Solomon Burke/Blind Boys of Alabama, 2002

Then I'm sorry for the confusion and I'll rephrase my question.

Is it possible to worship a God where the only thing you know about (Him, Her, or it) is that they created everything?