Why do we worship?

[Pete Ahlstrom]

I don't make my children worship me. So for me, it seems odd that God would require worship from us. It seems man made. Throughout history, kings and queens required worship from subjects and the priest class always wanted to have royalty be equated with deity. So perhaps this is where it came from.

[Jeanne]

Perhaps it is unfortunate..at least for some..that when I think of the word "worship"..an alternative word comes to mind and that is adoration.  So.I just can't see Jesus or His Father wanting such a thing when all the characteristics that I admire about the Lord..is His meekness..and humility.

Though I believe in Him.  I cannot yet worship Him.  Someday I may.  Right now because I don't KNOW Him...He is my friend and confident and sometimes the only one that may believe in me. 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 10/31/2017 at 11:19 AM, CA Steve said:

Why do we worship God?. I know that sounds like a silly question, but the only response I can come up with is.... well... because He is God,

Okay...He is God...But have you received a dime for worshiping Him year after year? I was arguing about this with a Fundamentalist Christian, I told him "if you pray for me, in my name for 15 minutes I'll pay you 250" I thought he was going to kill me, he said no, I told him "I'll pray for you if you pay me hundred bucks", he didn't like that either....

[mfbukowski]

On 10/31/2017 at 9:19 AM, CA Steve said:

So the thread on the existence of evil has me thinking about how the LDS response to thodicy involves a God who is not omnipotent in the classic sense, a God who is a contingent being as opposed to a God who is the ground of all existence. In other words, the LDS God is coeternal with other things like matter and a certain set of rules or laws, like the laws of justice or laws that govern binding things on earth as well as in heaven. Additionally in LDS theology , some believe that we can become Gods ourselves or, at least, like God, in that we will share in many of His powers. Now you may or may not agree with that summary but I think my following question still holds since it can even apply to a truly omnipotent being, on on whom everything else is dependent.

 

Why do we worship God?. I know that sounds like a silly question, but the only response I can come up with is.... well... because He is God, and I am guessing that I am looking for something a bit less circular, something that actually defines what it is to be divine, what it is that is worthy of such a level of attention. For me, the fact that He is our creator does not seem to reach the level or requiring worship. My parents are responsible for bringing me into this world and providing an environment that nourished me and allowed me to grow, sort of a microcosm of what God has done for the world, but while I love and honor my parents, certainly I do not worship them. Given the advances in science, it is not hard to imagine a future society of humans (if we survive that long) where creating life is simply a scientific process that can be accomplished from start to finish. It is also easy to imagine a sufficiently advanced alien race whose technology would mimic anything we thought as Godly powers, certainly we would not consider such a race as the equivalent of God and worthy of worship.

 

So, what is it in the nature of God that makes Him worthy of worship?

God doesn't need to be worshiped 

We are the ones who need to worship.

We worship Him for us, not for him.  It is our need to have something bigger in our life we are worshipping.

Ever gone out and looked at the stars?   That is the essence of the feeling that we need.  We need something "Bigger"

Even atheistic secularists know that except perhaps the ones here.   http://www.calottery.com/play/draw-games/powerball

This is tragic, but welcome to the California Lottery

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http://www.diatothaumazein.com/2013/07/is-the-need-to-worship-part-of-the-human-condition/

 

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

 

Throughout California there are billboards saying 

Quote

 

"Believe in something Bigger!"

   -- The California Lottery

 

And people go into their places of worship- convenience stores, and put in their Offerings to their god, believing in "something bigger" in full hope for things unseen.

And atheists have been known to crave fame and fortune- no, not more than others- but all humans want "something bigger"

It's part of the human condition.

It has nothing to do with God needing something.  It is almost as if we crave something bigger and better and long for it deep within.

Gosh, I wonder why. 

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Atheist Mormon]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

But you still worship- 

Money that is.  

No, you are dead wrong....I would leave my million dollar business without a second glance and sleep on dirt at freezing temperatures (in Utah) if I could. When I see my family & friends dying around me it is not a hard decision. I value my free time more. 

[mfbukowski]

On 11/6/2017 at 9:49 AM, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't make my children worship me. So for me, it seems odd that God would require worship from us. It seems man made. Throughout history, kings and queens required worship from subjects and the priest class always wanted to have royalty be equated with deity. So perhaps this is where it came from.

And now we worship the priestly class of rock stars, movie stars and the super rich and super powerful.

Boy we sure have advanced!!

Oh by the way can I have your autograph or something else you have actually touched?   No of course I don't believe in relics of saints......

[mfbukowski]

Deleted- uncharitable and personal, I apologize.

Edited November 9, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

16 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No, you are dead wrong....I would leave my million dollar business without a second glance and sleep on dirt at freezing temperatures (in Utah) if I could. When I see my family & friends dying around me it is not a hard decision. I value my free time more. 

Atheist, I apologize for making it personal- that was not my intention.  Very sorry

[Kevin Christensen]

I got some insight on the "Why we worship?" question from reading a book by Ninian Smart called "Worldviews" drawing on The Idea of the Holy by Rudolf Otto.   I quote from Smart in my essay on "A Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience".

Conveniently here:

http://oneclimbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/model_of_experience.pdf

 

Quote

Ninian Smart sums up numinous experience as ―a mystery which is fearful, awe-inspiring, . . . and fascinating. "But above all, the sense of presence which confronts a person in the numinous experience is majestic: marvelous in power and glory. In their rather different ways, the experiences of Arjuna, Isaiah, Job, Paul, and Muhammad are all numinous in character."

Ian Barbour emphasizes the "sense of otherness, confrontation and encounter" when "man is aware of his own dependence, finitude, limitation, and contingency."
This experience usually occurs in institutionalized worship situations involving personal models of God. The worshipper often bows to show humility, acknowledging inferiority and distance, and feels contingency and a moral demand. Worship involves sacrifice and petition.

So the architecture of the great Gothic cathedrals, with immensity and majesty and the imposing organ music are all designed to inspire the sense of the numinous, which itself leads to the act of worship in response.  C. S. Lewis makes Aslan a lion in order to create some of the this sense, of something beautiful, powerful, awe-inspiring, and potentially terrible.  In the DeMille version of the The Ten Commandments, it is Moses being told, "Take off the shoes from thy feet, for the ground upon which thou standest is Holy Ground"... that is a moment depicting the human encounter with the numinous.

There are different kinds of religious experience, of course (my essay delves into that), but the act of worship is, I think, the natural human response to encountering the Holy, what Otto and Smart called the "numinous." 

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Pete Ahlstrom]

53 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And now we worship the priestly class of rock stars, movie stars and the super rich and super powerful.

Boy we sure have advanced!!

Oh by the way can I have your autograph or something else you have actually touched?   No of course I don't believe in relics of saints......

Yes, humans seem to need to worship something be it money, fame or power.

[Atheist Mormon]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Atheist, I apologize for making it personal- that was not my intention.  Very sorry

No, Bukowski I don't think you are that kinda person anyway....Just that our philosophies of life are different where you might think to look forward to an eternal life vs me,. who thinks a lifespan left between next five minutes to 25 years max (I'm little over 60). It's been a good experience like most of yours (I hope )

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No, Bukowski I don't think you are that kinda person anyway....Just that our philosophies of life are different where you might think to look forward to an eternal life vs me,. who thinks a lifespan left between next five minutes to 25 years max (I'm little over 60). It's been a good experience like most of yours (I hope )

To me it's more about living life to the fullest right now.  There isn't much I can do about the afterlife but live the best I know how right now which is what makes me happy anyway.

If it happens that's all gravy.

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No, Bukowski I don't think you are that kinda person anyway....Just that our philosophies of life are different where you might think to look forward to an eternal life vs me,. who thinks a lifespan left between next five minutes to 25 years max (I'm little over 60). It's been a good experience like most of yours (I hope )

I wanted to answer this yet again because I want you to understand what Mormonism really is to me, and I am very sure you have never thought of it in these terms, and I think if you could think of it this way it might be beneficial to you.

First of all I am 69, so you are a kid.

Second of all, Mormonism teaches us that we should try to be like God, right?

Who is God?   He is an an exalted human.  What does that mean?  That means that Mormons believe that HUMANS like you and me have infinite potential for improvement if we but have faith that we can, that if we have that image of God as the Ideal Human before our minds at all times ("having the spirit to be with us always") we can improve the kind of person we are.

You know all these movie stars and Tony Robbins people etc who are secular have this idea that if you "visualize" something (What is "visualization"?? It is "the hope for things unseen" ie: faith!!) and "put it out into the universe" and think about it enough, it will happen.

That is a very secular yet very religious idea.

So if we put the idea of becoming the Ideal Human before our eyes at all times, that is the same as becoming like God, at least for Mormons

So Mormonism is not about pie-in-the-sky faith in a mansion above (though of course it can be) as much (to me) about LIVING THE IDEAL LIFE RIGHT NOW HERE ON EARTH!!

Worship is about feeling and seeing that Ideal Human in the most profound way that we can see and feel- deep within our beings.  THAT is the "something bigger" in my life.

So yes if there is a Celestial Kingdom or not (perhaps from your point of view) Mormonism is still about living the best possible life you can as a mere slimy mortal right here on earth.

That is what I think you are missing?

[Atheist Mormon]

On 11/10/2017 at 11:45 AM, mfbukowski said:

I wanted to answer this yet again because I want you to understand what Mormonism really is to me, and I am very sure you have never thought of it in these terms, and I think if you could think of it this way it might be beneficial to you.

First of all I am 69, so you are a kid.

Second of all, Mormonism teaches us that we should try to be like God, right?

Who is God?   He is an an exalted human.  What does that mean?  That means that Mormons believe that HUMANS like you and me have infinite potential for improvement if we but have faith that we can, that if we have that image of God as the Ideal Human before our minds at all times ("having the spirit to be with us always") we can improve the kind of person we are.

You know all these movie stars and Tony Robbins people etc who are secular have this idea that if you "visualize" something (What is "visualization"?? It is "the hope for things unseen" ie: faith!!) and "put it out into the universe" and think about it enough, it will happen.

That is a very secular yet very religious idea.

So if we put the idea of becoming the Ideal Human before our eyes at all times, that is the same as becoming like God, at least for Mormons

So Mormonism is not about pie-in-the-sky faith in a mansion above (though of course it can be) as much (to me) about LIVING THE IDEAL LIFE RIGHT NOW HERE ON EARTH!!

Worship is about feeling and seeing that Ideal Human in the most profound way that we can see and feel- deep within our beings.  THAT is the "something bigger" in my life.

So yes if there is a Celestial Kingdom or not (perhaps from your point of view) Mormonism is still about living the best possible life you can as a mere slimy mortal right here on earth.

That is what I think you are missing?

Hey, thanks for making me feel good, I am few years younger than you. While I like your short essay about Mormon faith 100%, I have bad news for you; No LDS Brass will proclaim God being an "Exalted Human", long ago GBH stopped it with his 60 minutes interviews and whether you accept it or not a great erosion of basic doctrines taking place the uniqueness of what Mormon Faith used to be. 

As for me, I am not missing much, trying to make the best of what I've got left without the illusions of a "life after". However if I had a choice I definitely would accept Mormon Creed over traditional Christian Creed but since they both originated in "myth", I'm left with no illusions. 

I did appreciate your answer though. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

...since they both originated in "myth", I'm left with no illusions. 

"Myth" has many different definitions and uses.  Depending on what you mean by it personally, I may or may not agree with you on the point that Christianity originated from "myth". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_mythology

What is wrong with myths and illusions if they point to something true?  Life itself is an illusion of sorts, is it not?  What is an illusion is that you are left with no illusions.  The question is, which illusion will you believe?

J.R.R Tolkein once said that "mythology is the divine echo of "the truth"". 

[mfbukowski]

50 minutes ago, pogi said:

"Myth" has many different definitions and uses.  Depending on what you mean by it personally, I may or may not agree with you on the point that Christianity originated from "myth". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_mythology

What is wrong with myths and illusions if they point to something true?  Life itself is an illusion of sorts, is it not?  What is an illusion is that you are left with no illusions.  The question is, which illusion will you believe?

J.R.R Tolkein once said that "mythology is the divine echo of "the truth"". 

I appreciate your response on this one that was something I was basically going to say myself.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Hey, thanks for making me feel good, I am few years younger than you. While I like your short essay about Mormon faith 100%, I have bad news for you; No LDS Brass will proclaim God being an "Exalted Human", long ago GBH stopped it with his 60 minutes interviews and whether you accept it or not a great erosion of basic doctrines taking place the uniqueness of what Mormon Faith used to be. 

As for me, I am not missing much, trying to make the best of what I've got left without the illusions of a "life after". However if I had a choice I definitely would accept Mormon Creed over traditional Christian Creed but since they both originated in "myth", I'm left with no illusions. 

I did appreciate your answer though. 

I am not sure that this will communicate well to you but I will say it anyway just in case.

Regarding this response from you I think we disagree in two basic areas 

Area1 is that as Pogi mentions I think that everything we know is a myth in some sense or other. Everything we know is filtered through our brains and through our mental processes and does not reflect reality purely as it is.  In a sense every person has their own reality and if you want to call that a myth then so be it.

Area 2 is that you believe that we obey prophets slavishly and that everything they say is believed to be infallible.

That is not the case.

You may have been taught that as a child and unfortunately still hold a childish view of Mormon beliefs.

I also disagree with your interpretation of President Hinckley's statement. Even if I took president Hinckley's statement as you do I would simply disagree with it, but I think you have misinterpreted his statement.

It is clear to me from Mormon scripture that we are to pray about and receive our own testimonies about anything that is taught. That means if we do not have a testimony of something a prophet says we are not bound to accept it.

As long as we live in a way that allows us to truthfully answer the temple recommend questions properly we are Mormons in good standing.

I think that your understanding of those two issues are the only thing that separate us really. 

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Atheist Mormon]

22 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I appreciate your response on this one that was something I was basically going to say myself.

Fine, I can answer you both in that case.....Guys, I live 99% in no illusionary existence, when you say; What is wrong with myths and illusions if they point to something true? that type of knowledge will not lead anybody a concrete point, where you can help sick people to heal (they need real vaccines, medicines), scientific knowledge whatsoever....When Pope & Cardinals accused Galileo of heresy they didn't even know the world was round....

Coming back to origins of Christianity; if it is based on myth how is that suppose to help people? Instead it will hinder searching the facts about everything of human progress...... I think Humanity wasted enough time with these "feel good stories"

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Fine, I can answer you both in that case.....Guys, I live 99% in no illusionary existence, when you say; What is wrong with myths and illusions if they point to something true? that type of knowledge will not lead anybody a concrete point, where you can help sick people to heal (they need real vaccines, medicines), scientific knowledge whatsoever....When Pope & Cardinals accused Galileo of heresy they didn't even know the world was round....

Coming back to origins of Christianity; if it is based on myth how is that suppose to help people? Instead it will hinder searching the facts about everything of human progress...... I think Humanity wasted enough time with these "feel good stories"

 

Facts are myths that work for a while until we replace them with a myth that works better.

Are you still avoiding eating eggs? Does dietary cholesterol matter? 

Will science ever stop because everything is known?

Both science and religion do the same thing but their subject matter is different. Both bring out ways to make our life better. Science deals with ideas about the way things work and religion and morality deal with ideas about  what gives us purpose in life and make us happy.

Surely working for your family gives you fulfillment and happiness, and you did not discover that was important to you through science. You discovered it through the contents of your heart. That is how you know what ideas bring you comfort and peace. You don't work hard for your family because of science you work hard for your family because you love them and want them to have a good life. That is your religion.

I predicted we could not discuss that one and so my story stands. I wish you well.

Edited November 14, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Fine, I can answer you both in that case.....Guys, I live 99% in no illusionary existence, when you say; What is wrong with myths and illusions if they point to something true? that type of knowledge will not lead anybody a concrete point, where you can help sick people to heal (they need real vaccines, medicines), scientific knowledge whatsoever....When Pope & Cardinals accused Galileo of heresy they didn't even know the world was round....

Coming back to origins of Christianity; if it is based on myth how is that suppose to help people? Instead it will hinder searching the facts about everything of human progress...... I think Humanity wasted enough time with these "feel good stories"

 

And your feel-good story is whatever brings you fulfillment and happiness in life. What brings you fulfillment in life is not what brings me fulfillment in life. And so our "truths" in that realm differ.

Apparently your belief that we should in fact search out "everything about the facts of human progress" is your religion, not mine.

That is your unquestioned Commandment that you live by, that is your faith and your myth.

 

[Maestrophil]

On 11/6/2017 at 10:49 AM, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't make my children worship me. So for me, it seems odd that God would require worship from us. It seems man made. Throughout history, kings and queens required worship from subjects and the priest class always wanted to have royalty be equated with deity. So perhaps this is where it came from.

As A hoping believer - I have often asked myself this question myself.  I KNOW why I worship God and Christ - but why do THEY want me to worship them?  It's hard for me to understand.  Unless their definition of worship is different than ours

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Guys, I live 99% in no illusionary existence

Based on what...your perceptions?  You have clearly been deceived by the "grand illusion".

Quote

 

It seems that knowledge about the physical properties of objects cannot be gained by perception, so perception is neither “veridical” nor “valid” in the strict sense of the words—the properties of the “thing in itself” remain indeterminate in any empirical sense (Kant, 1787/1998).

Clearly, so-called objective perception is impossible, it is an illusion.

Perception is a "grand illusion".

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4116780/

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

that type of knowledge will not lead anybody a concrete point, where you can help sick people to heal (they need real vaccines, medicines), scientific knowledge whatsoever....

No?  If illusions cannot be beneficial to our happiness and well-being or bring about "concrete" good in the world, then we might as well all give up now, because our life is a grand illusion.  But we seem to make pretty good use of it if you ask me.  If you want to opt out of illusory existence, then you will be without sensory input...that would suck!

Quote

 

Perceptual illusions can be seen, interpreted and used in two very different aspects: on the one hand, and this is the common property assigned to illusions, they are used to entertain people. They are a part of our everyday culture, they can kill time. On the other hand, they are often the starting point for creating insights. And insights, especially if they are based on personal experiences through elaborative processes actively, are perfect pre-conditions to increase understanding and to improve and optimize mental models (Carbon, 2010b). 

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4116780/

 

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Coming back to origins of Christianity; if it is based on myth how is that suppose to help people?

The power of myth and illusion is incredibly influential for good in the world.  Mythology is an incredibly powerful influence for both good and evil in the world.  That should be obvious in witnessing how religion can influence man for both good and evil. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Facts are myths that work for a while until we replace them with a myth that works better.

I love that!

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Based on what...your perceptions?  You have clearly been deceived by the "grand illusion".

No?  If illusions cannot be beneficial to our happiness and well-being or bring about "concrete" good in the world, then we might as well all give up now, because our life is a grand illusion.  But we seem to make pretty good use of it if you ask me.  If you want to opt out of illusory existence, then you will be without sensory input...that would suck!

The power of myth and illusion is incredibly influential for good in the world.  Mythology is an incredibly powerful influence for both good and evil in the world.  That should be obvious in witnessing how religion can influence man for both good and evil. 

Great article that puts it all in one place. It cracks me up though that  he quotes Kant and Nagel, and uses Wittgenstein's rabbit/duck illusion without attribution by making it the Man/rat, and young and old woman illusion. All my favorite examples in one place!

And again it illustrates that we are organizing matter unorganized simply by perceiving the world around us. 

I am getting to the point where I cannot understand how anyone could not be LDS after making all these connections.

And they miss all this being too worried about Book of Mormon geography. Ridiculous. 

Furthermore noticed that most of the sources for the article are from Germany and France. Those countries are known for their understanding of phenomenology which is precisely what philosophical view this article supports.

Edited November 14, 2017 by mfbukowski