Is there a middle way?

[hope_for_things]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, i don't think that Elder Oaks went to far in his conference talk, but that's a different discussion.

I do, too far in the sense that his words were divisive, hurtful, out of alignment with the core of the gospel, and uninspired.  But that is a topic for another thread. 

My point is that we ought to be careful to evaluate things from all sides, and those tendencies that take us away from the two great commandments, those things which run contrary to our foundational principles ought to be rejected.  Not necessarily a rejection of the people that espouse these ideas, we need to articulate our principles better and make cogent arguments for why the principles are important to win the minds and hearts of individuals.  

[The Nehor]

59 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Jesus was mormon????

More a man then I will ever be.  

But yes, pretty much.

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said:

And I would agree with that assessment but that was not the point I was attempting to make.  I was trying to say that I believe there is an element within church leadership trying to make a safe space for progressive Mormon's, allow for a lager tent. I was not saying that they are trying to make a space for Dehlin Mormon's

Well, as an anti-progress and completely regressive Mormon I hope not.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

More a man then I will ever be.  

But yes, pretty much.

Nothing middle way about this man.

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I do, too far in the sense that his words were divisive, hurtful, out of alignment with the core of the gospel, and uninspired.  But that is a topic for another thread. 

My point is that we ought to be careful to evaluate things from all sides, and those tendencies that take us away from the two great commandments, those things which run contrary to our foundational principles ought to be rejected.  Not necessarily a rejection of the people that espouse these ideas, we need to articulate our principles better and make cogent arguments for why the principles are important to win the minds and hearts of individuals.  

Sometimes the gospel is divisive (according to Christ) and sometimes the truth is hard and causes hurt feelings.  Just because something causes division and hurt feelings does not, by itself, mean that a prophet went too far.

If I understand you correctly though, those things that run contrary to our founding principles ought to be rejected, but we should not reject those things which run contrary to our founding doctrines?  Is that was you are saying?

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Yes, that's essentially what i'm asking (not concerning being unworthy, but rather being doctrinally incongruent with the truths one must accept to become a mormon) .  

Does being a mormon actually mean anything, doctrinally speaking?

Here is what I believe is the bottom line on this topic: People can be members of record of the LDS Church and basically believe whatever it is they want to believe. If they so desire they can be half-way members, or three-quarter way members, or one-quarter way members, or in-all-the-way members. But whatever degree of belief and faithfulness one chooses to live by, he or she musn't suffer under any delusion that a one-quarter way member will be equally blessed as the faithful and diligent members who are "all-in."

It's hackneyed to say we are all free to make choices but we are not free to choose the consequences of those choices. The scriptures make it abundantly clear that when it comes to receiving heavenly blessings in this life and eternal rewards in the world to come every one of us will be judged by a perfect judge and each of us will reap in direct proportion to what we have sown. 

For example, if it turns out the Book of Mormon is real, true and historically accurate (I speak rhetorically for I know by the Spirit it is real, true and historically accurate), it's wishful thinking in the extreme to imagine that someone who believes the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and the resurrected Jesus Christ never ministered to the Nephites because the Nephites never actually existed is going to be blessed equally with someone who' has applied Moroni's challenge and learned by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is real true and historical and then lives his life in a way that truly demonstrates he really does believe it. 

The only reason why spiritually immature topics like this one go on and on is because the scriptures are either not understood by the participants or they're being ignored. The scriptures repeatedly demolish any supposed viability of a mid-way belief except as waystation on the way to "all-in" belief. But as I said earlier on this thread,  the middle-way will get someone into the terrestrial kingdom, and if the terrestrial kingdom is what one seeks then the middle-way is fine.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Jeanne]

Well..you know..if middle way is a terrestrial thing...all those in the celestial kingdom will get to wave at us immature folks down there.  I do understand where Bobbieware is come from.  Sure..we reap what we sow..

Edited October 6, 2017 by Jeanne

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Well..you know..if middle way is a terrestrial thing...all those in the celestial kingdom will get to wave at us immature folks down there.  I do understand where Bobbieware is come from.  Sure..we reap what we sow..

But God is a merciful God, and let's all say a collective 'amen' that because of Christ, none of us (Bobbieaware included) will get what we deserve.  

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But God is a merciful God, and let's all say a collective 'amen' that because of Christ, none of us (Bobbieaware included) will get what we deserve.  

So true...

[Guest]

I equate the "middle way" as standing (or straddling) the yellow line in a busy highway, you get hit by traffic both ways. It is like saying, I believe in the historical Jesus, but not the scriptural Jesus, and still calling yourself a Christian, or one who has salvation. There is either truth, or there is no truth. 

ETA: The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, is the word of God, revealed the the Prophet Joseph, or we are just another Church among thousands. If this is the case, there is no reason to believe, no reason to remain members of any kind. If I knew, or believed this, I would be gone yesterday. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

What if someone were to deny the existence of God as the LDS church teaches Him, but still wanted to be called a Mormon?  Is that too far or just fine?

Like how can Baptism mean anything if you don't believe there is any authority to it nor is there any Christ to be baptized in the name of?

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I equate the "middle way" as standing (or straddling) the yellow line in a busy highway, you get hit by traffic both ways. It is like saying, I believe in the historical Jesus, but not the scriptural Jesus, and still calling yourself a Christian, or one who has salvation. There is either truth, or there is no truth. 

ETA: The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, is the word of God, revealed the the Prophet Joseph, or we are just another Church among thousands. If this is the case, there is no reason to believe, no reason to remain members of any kind. If I knew, or believed this, I would be gone yesterday. 

[Jeanne]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

..

I love this...because for a squirrel and a deer in the headlights...there really is no middle way...cute picture!  But surely we should study it out in our minds..be informed..and pray.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Jeanne

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Sometimes the gospel is divisive (according to Christ) and sometimes the truth is hard and causes hurt feelings.  Just because something causes division and hurt feelings does not, by itself, mean that a prophet went too far.

If I understand you correctly though, those things that run contrary to our founding principles ought to be rejected, but we should not reject those things which run contrary to our founding doctrines?  Is that was you are saying?

I don't believe the gospel is divisive, your interpretation, but I do believe the gospel at times is a call to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.  Discrimination against the marginalized is antithetical to the core principles of the gospel message.  

I like the word principles better than doctrines, but that's because I believe the gospel is built on ideas that apply generally but aren't detailed rules or creeds which I think many times are defined as doctrines in our cultural use of that word.   These are ideas to inspire and call us to become better and challenge us when we get comfortable.  

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't believe the gospel is divisive, your interpretation, but I do believe the gospel at times is a call to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.  Discrimination against the marginalized is antithetical to the core principles of the gospel message.  

I like the word principles better than doctrines, but that's because I believe the gospel is built on ideas that apply generally but aren't detailed rules or creeds which I think many times are defined as doctrines in our cultural use of that word.   These are ideas to inspire and call us to become better and challenge us when we get comfortable.  

It’s not my interpretation, it’s a quote from scripture. 

[hope_for_things]

50 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It’s not my interpretation, it’s a quote from scripture. 

It's the way you interpret the scripture, this is not exegesis, and the scriptures are not quoting Jesus.  

[Rain]

10 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Unless anyone is absolute in striving for perfection, everyone in any church on Sunday...is middle way.

I don't think so.  The Lord looks on the heart.  All of us, at some point, have probably been living a middle way. That does not mean we are always living the middle way. As I said above, when we are sincere and striving we will not be in the middle way even if our actions seem to be middle way. And even if we are not striving every single minute. 

The Living Christ says, "Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts." Our desires because no one is perfect. Our works because our desires must lead to works if they are to mean anything. Note that they don't say our "perfect works". 

So you try to follow Christ, make a mistake, repent and try again. That isn't living middle road. That's the road that leads to Christ.

 

 

[sunstoned]

22 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Ridiculous, if being an odd weirdo got you invited to leave I would have been booted years ago. 

Of course I think you guys are abusing the English language with your definition of 'individuality'. He is hardly individuality personifiedwhen he has followers eating it up. Those Dehlinites love their conformity.

He was a member with some unorthodox beliefs, and he got excommunicated.  Enough said.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

He was a member with some unorthodox beliefs, and he got excommunicated.  Enough said.

But not all members with unorthodox beliefs get excommunicated. Doesn’t that imply that there’s more to be said?

[Tacenda]

 

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But not all members with unorthodox beliefs get excommunicated. Doesn’t that imply that there’s more to be said?

I'll bet a lot of members aren't true believers but go for the social, or to be accepted or for their families. And I think Dehlin probably crossed the line so many times it was time to call him in. He had ample times that he was given second chances. He had his stake president and bishop working with him, also general authorities/authority. 

I think a couple of podcasts may have done him in. The one with Sandra Tanner comes to mind...

Edited October 6, 2017 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'll bet a lot of members aren't true believers but go for the social, or to be accepted or for their families.

This may be true where being a Church member is socially acceptable or has broad family support. In these parts, it just doesn't work that way. Being an engaged Church member takes grit and determination.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This may be true where being a Church member is socially acceptable or has broad family support. In these parts, it just doesn't work that way. Being an engaged Church member takes grit and determination.

It does in Utah as well. 

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It does in Utah as well. 

It is very easy to coast in Utah, do the minimal.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

It is very easy to coast in Utah, do the minimal.

Maybe so. But I understood Hamba to be talking about being “an engaged Church member.” Often, those who aren’t resent those who are. There is considerable social pressure against it, often from those who see exerting such social pressure as a way to rebel vicariously against their own upbringing. That sort can be considerably more hostile than those who are relatively uninformed about the Church. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe so. But I understood Hanna to be talking about being “an engaged Church member.”

I was agreeing with you...in Utah being an engaged church member takes grit and determination because it is so easy to coast and do the minimal without, from what I have seen, much pressure.