CV75 Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 On 10/8/2017 at 11:50 AM, Button Gwinnett said: Yes at some point there is a tipping point where behavior warrants action, but aren't we talking about where that line is? Once someone is clearly promoting apostasy and pubcally pushing an agenda to urge others to do likewise yeah ok. But in the situations I've mentioned I am talking about members expressing doubts, asking questions but having their online activity monitored by their wards. This to me is crossing the line and where it makes the church appear like a paranoid authoritarian organization afraid of its own history. I would see such online posting as you describe (expressing doubt publicly, asking questions publicly, etc.) as a cry for help. Are you saying no one is helping your friends, or that they are being disciplined for asking for help? How they express themselves is also important. People express doubts and ask questions in Church, and sometimes in a very toxic or disruptive way. At some point leadership is asked or needs to address the issue even if the behavior does not necessarily constitute apostasy. The same toxicity and disruption can occur in the online world and spill into the physical world.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 43 minutes ago, CV75 said: I would see such online posting as you describe (expressing doubt publicly, asking questions publicly, etc.) as a cry for help. Are you saying no one is helping your friends, or that they are being disciplined for asking for help? How they express themselves is also important. People express doubts and ask questions in Church, and sometimes in a very toxic or disruptive way. At some point leadership is asked or needs to address the issue even if the behavior does not necessarily constitute apostasy. The same toxicity and disruption can occur in the online world and spill into the physical world. Would you say those that question other religions publicly are also crying for help? Or is it just those who question Mormonism publicly?
Bobbieaware Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Gray said: Borrowing from Calvin, by way of St. Anselm Borrowing from Lehi by way of Alma. 1
Button Gwinnett Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, CV75 said: active temple recommend holding I would see such online posting as you describe (expressing doubt publicly, asking questions publicly, etc.) as a cry for help. Are you saying no one is helping your friends, or that they are being disciplined for asking for help? How they express themselves is also important. People express doubts and ask questions in Church, and sometimes in a very toxic or disruptive way. At some point leadership is asked or needs to address the issue even if the behavior does not necessarily constitute apostasy. The same toxicity and disruption can occur in the online world and spill into the physical world. These people were not the Tanner's. They were active temple recommend fully contributing calling holding members of the ward. Yes they were posting things not taught in SS. Turned in by other ward members for some of these innocent posting, monitored and watched, called out, exposed and went bitter as a result of being treated like apostates, which at the time they were not. Ironically, that this is was how the church reacted and treated them was actually what pushed them away. Ironic huh?
CV75 Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 33 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: Would you say those that question other religions publicly are also crying for help? Or is it just those who question Mormonism publicly? Of course. I'm assuming from what @Button Gwinnett has shared is that the posts are presented in such a way as to raise concerns from others in his closer-knit faith community, inspiring them to reach out and help him with those doubts and questions. 6 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said: These people were not the Tanner's. They were active temple recommend fully contributing calling holding members of the ward. Yes they were posting things not taught in SS. Turned in by other ward members for some of these innocent posting, monitored and watched, called out, exposed and went bitter as a result of being treated like apostates, which at the time they were not. Ironically, that this is was how the church reacted and treated them was actually what pushed them away. Ironic huh? Please share some examples of their posts. Are you saying they were not so much being disciplined by their bishop as being disrespected by their ward members? When you say "turned in," what did the bishop do? Who was monitoring and watching their online activity -- isn't that the purpose of Facebook, to voluntarily be be monitored and watched (granted, to be seen in a favorable way, but that's the risk one takes)? Were the same people not monitoring or watching before?
Gray Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: Borrowing from Lehi by way of Alma. St. Anselm was reading Alma and Lehi?
Bobbieaware Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 53 minutes ago, Gray said: St. Anselm was reading Alma and Lehi? My affirmation of the the LDS doctines of no agency without an atonement and no spiritual growth by learning from our mistakes without an atonement is based primarily on the teachings found in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Saint Anslem's teachings were not on my mind.
Button Gwinnett Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, CV75 said: Of course. I'm assuming from what @Button Gwinnett has shared is that the posts are presented in such a way as to raise concerns from others in his closer-knit faith community, inspiring them to reach out and help him with those doubts and questions. Please share some examples of their posts. Are you saying they were not so much being disciplined by their bishop as being disrespected by their ward members? When you say "turned in," what did the bishop do? Who was monitoring and watching their online activity -- isn't that the purpose of Facebook, to voluntarily be be monitored and watched (granted, to be seen in a favorable way, but that's the risk one takes)? Were the same people not monitoring or watching before? What I am saying is that initially these active members posted on their social media sights articles, questions and expressed doubts regarding LDS truth claims. This led other ward members to alert the bishop, who in turn called them in. It is my understanding that the bishop didn't handle it very well and instead of helping, which was his initial intent, ended up pushing them further away due to his over bearing (my impression) use of his authority. This pushed this family further away. In the end there was a church discipline held and that very act caused them to resign. I just felt that the church aka bishop over played his hand and pushed instead of listening. It was a tragic disruptive unnecessary course of events that did not need to happen. The church lost as well as this very good family. lose-lose. A FB friend turned them in. To this day only the bishop knows who this person was. Edited October 9, 2017 by Button Gwinnett
CV75 Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 23 minutes ago, Button Gwinnett said: What I am saying is that initially these active members posted on their social media sights articles, questions and expressed doubts regarding LDS truth claims. This led other ward members to alert the bishop, who in turn called them in. It is my understanding that the bishop didn't handle it very well and instead of helping, which was his initial intent, ended up pushing them further away due to his over bearing (my impression) use of his authority. This pushed this family further away. In the end there was a church discipline held and that very act caused them to resign. I just felt that the church aka bishop over played his hand and pushed instead of listening. It was a tragic disruptive unnecessary course of events that did not need to happen. The church lost as well as this very good family. lose-lose. A FB friend turned them in. To this day only the bishop knows who this person was. What were the truth claims, and what were the articles? What was the disciplinary council about, and for whom? I'm trying to understand the connection and a clearer context of what you are saying. And could not the same course of events have occurred had the members voiced their concerns and shared their articles with the same audience face-to-face? What is the significance of the FB setting?
Button Gwinnett Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, CV75 said: What were the truth claims, and what were the articles? What was the disciplinary council about, and for whom? I'm trying to understand the connection and a clearer context of what you are saying. And could not the same course of events have occurred had the members voiced their concerns and shared their articles with the same audience face-to-face? What is the significance of the FB setting? It was over a year ago. I would have to go through this person's FB page to give further details, so instead of doing that I'm going from memory. The FB connection, at least to me, is a further intrusion into our privacy and makes me uncomfortable. Again I think it is a question of where is the line a member must cross before their online activity goes from questions and doubts to apostasy. That line seem rather fuzzy and arbitrary.
CV75 Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Button Gwinnett said: It was over a year ago. I would have to go through this person's FB page to give further details, so instead of doing that I'm going from memory. The FB connection, at least to me, is a further intrusion into our privacy and makes me uncomfortable. Again I think it is a question of where is the line a member must cross before their online activity goes from questions and doubts to apostasy. That line seem rather fuzzy and arbitrary. So we're really talking about a hypothetical. Online communication to me is not any different than face-to-face as far as content goes, and I'm not sure how FB can be expected to ensure any kind of privacy. What are your thoughts on FB as a private space with impunity for what people post? Obviously the couple didn't mind their FB friends knowing they had concerns, and they were comfortable sharing their articles as well. Without the details and a good memory, the line you seek is bound to be fuzzy. We don't even know what the bishop was thinking or what they were to be disciplined for, what the particular points of infraction were, or what their FB posts say about the Church now.
Button Gwinnett Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, CV75 said: So we're really talking about a hypothetical. Online communication to me is not any different than face-to-face as far as content goes, and I'm not sure how FB can be expected to ensure any kind of privacy. What are your thoughts on FB as a private space with impunity for what people post? Obviously the couple didn't mind their FB friends knowing they had concerns, and they were comfortable sharing their articles as well. Without the details and a good memory, the line you seek is bound to be fuzzy. We don't even know what the bishop was thinking or what they were to be disciplined for, what the particular points of infraction were, or what their FB posts say about the Church now. I think FB has its own way of exacting a cost for the posts we make without the church getting involved. Its was just a sad result for some good people that I care about and I know that it didn't have to end as it did. The church should never in my opinion be the enemy.
CV75 Posted October 10, 2017 Posted October 10, 2017 14 hours ago, Button Gwinnett said: I think FB has its own way of exacting a cost for the posts we make without the church getting involved. Its was just a sad result for some good people that I care about and I know that it didn't have to end as it did. The church should never in my opinion be the enemy. Well that escalated quickly! Sorry I cant empathize too much because you've kept the details fuzzy.
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