Is there a middle way?

[Mystery Meat]

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT TRYING TO STIR THE POT AND I DON'T WANT ANYONE IN HERE TRYING TO EITHER

In another recent thread and in recent years the term "middle way mormonism" has been growing in popularity. I believe that folks like John Dehlin and Bill Reel are proponents of such (please correct me if I am wrong). As I understand it, those espousing the "middle way" are essentially saying that you don't have to be a hard line apostate or a TBM either, but that you can find value in the good that Mormonism can bring, even if that means rejecting certain truth claims. Feel free to expand on this rudimentary explanation.

The question I have then, is whether or not there is a middle way? Or rather does the Lord approve of such. Ultimately, I don't think my personal answer is binding on anyone but myself, but based on that stipulation I believe the answer to both questions is no. In contrast to the institutions of the world and the teachings and reason of modern philosophies, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to conformity. We are not expected to just be true to our self-perceived, authentic selves, but to be more like Christ. To change, to obey and to sacrifice. I don't want to get into what that does and does not mean with regards to the Church and local/general leadership here. 

Suffice it say, I don't think anyone, not even the best of us, is perfect at following the path the Lord has set. The more I think about it the more I realize there are probably things and sins in my life that demonstrate my own personal attempt to find a "middle way" of my own. I believe those attempts are ill-fated and unfruitful. I suppose that we each need to make choices for ourselves that put us not on some middle way, but on the straight and narrow way. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Mystery Meat

[clarkgoble]

Ultimately it all comes down to individual choices. What you feel God is asking you. Or even on what basis you form your morality. Personally so long as people aren't taking the easy way out I can't complain too much. I think there are members who do what they do just because that's what everyone else around them does. Then there are members truly trying to be Christlike and questioning what that means. There are likewise people who leave the Church for hedonism and people who leave the Church and arguably become better people and more ethical. The same is true of so-called middle way. So long as people aren't merely picking a middle way because it's easy (I don't feel like I can believe, but I don't want to seriously reflect on all these questions; and it's easy to maintain my old social roles) then who am I to question?

Like almost anything else, to me it's less about where they are than why they are there.

Edited October 4, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Duncan]

We are to avoid extremes for sure, it's good to study scripture but not 20 hours a day every day

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT TRYING TO STIR THE POT AND I DON'T WANT ANYONE IN HERE TRYING TO EITHER

In another recent thread and in recent years the term "middle way mormonism" has been growing in popularity. I believe that folks like John Dehlin and Bill Reel are proponents of such (please correct me if I am wrong). As I understand it, those espousing the "middle way" are essentially saying that you don't have to be a hard line apostate or a TBM either, but that you can find value in the good that Mormonism can bring, even if that means rejecting certain truth claims. Feel free to expand on this rudimentary explanation.

The question I have then, is whether or not there is a middle way? Or rather does the Lord approve of such. Ultimately, I don't think my personal answer is binding on anyone but myself, but based on that stipulation I believe the answer to both questions is no. In contrast to the institutions of the world and the teachings and reason of modern philosophies, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to conformity. We are not expected to just be true to our self-perceived, authentic selves, but to be more like Christ. To change, to obey and to sacrifice. I don't want to get into what that does and does not mean with regards to the Church and local/general leadership here. 

Suffice it say, I don't think anyone, not even the best of us, is perfect at following the path the Lord has set. The more I think about it the more I realize there are probably things and sins in my life that demonstrate my own personal attempt to find a "middle way" of my own. I believe those attempts are ill-fated and unfruitful. I suppose that we each need to make choices for ourselves that put us not on some middle way, but on the straight and narrow way. 

 

Here is a quote by Pres. Uchtdorf that I have posted on my profile. It's a good one and will probably make you feel better about your middle-way woes!

"Being always in the middle means that the game is never over, hope is never lost, defeat is never final. For no matter where we are or what our circumstances, an eternity of beginnings and an eternity of endings stretch out before us.

We are always in the middle." Dieder F. Uchtdorf - July 2012

Edited October 4, 2017 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

The more I think about it the more I realize there are probably things and sins in my life that demonstrate my own personal attempt to find a "middle way" of my own. I believe those attempts are ill-fated and unfruitful.

That has absolutely been the case in my own life as well. My experience has been that it's a bit like 'riding the clutch'. The car keeps moving, so it feels like everything is OK ... right until the clutch burns out. I really think this is why the Lord in Revelation spoke ill of being lukewarm vs. cold or hot. A disengaged clutch doesn't wear out. Granted, the vehicle goes nowhere, but no one expects it to, and it's quite capable of resuming forward movement at any point. A fully engaged clutch also doesn't wear out. It's that middle spot that causes all the wear and tear.

[Robert F. Smith]

12 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT TRYING TO STIR THE POT AND I DON'T WANT ANYONE IN HERE TRYING TO EITHER

In another recent thread and in recent years the term "middle way mormonism" has been growing in popularity. I believe that folks like John Dehlin and Bill Reel are proponents of such (please correct me if I am wrong). As I understand it, those espousing the "middle way" are essentially saying that you don't have to be a hard line apostate or a TBM either, but that you can find value in the good that Mormonism can bring, even if that means rejecting certain truth claims. Feel free to expand on this rudimentary explanation.

The question I have then, is whether or not there is a middle way? Or rather does the Lord approve of such. Ultimately, I don't think my personal answer is binding on anyone but myself, but based on that stipulation I believe the answer to both questions is no. In contrast to the institutions of the world and the teachings and reason of modern philosophies, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to conformity. We are not expected to just be true to our self-perceived, authentic selves, but to be more like Christ. To change, to obey and to sacrifice. I don't want to get into what that does and does not mean with regards to the Church and local/general leadership here. 

Suffice it say, I don't think anyone, not even the best of us, is perfect at following the path the Lord has set. The more I think about it the more I realize there are probably things and sins in my life that demonstrate my own personal attempt to find a "middle way" of my own. I believe those attempts are ill-fated and unfruitful. I suppose that we each need to make choices for ourselves that put us not on some middle way, but on the straight and narrow way. 

Depends on what you mean by "middle way."    The NT rich young man may have been on that middle path, when the Savior challenged him to sell all he had and follow Him.  He went away in sorrow because that was a bridge too far for him.  The Brethren seem to think that there is no middle way.  Yet Plautus advised "moderation in all things," and Buddhism likewise advises moderation:   "The Buddha describes the Noble Eightfold Path as the middle way of moderation, between the extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification."

The upshot is that Mormons are not extremists in their religiosity.  Steve Reed had this to say:  http://oneclimbs.com/2012/01/23/moderation-in-all-things-a-useless-phrase/ .

[churchistrue]

30 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT TRYING TO STIR THE POT AND I DON'T WANT ANYONE IN HERE TRYING TO EITHER

In another recent thread and in recent years the term "middle way mormonism" has been growing in popularity. I believe that folks like John Dehlin and Bill Reel are proponents of such (please correct me if I am wrong). As I understand it, those espousing the "middle way" are essentially saying that you don't have to be a hard line apostate or a TBM either, but that you can find value in the good that Mormonism can bring, even if that means rejecting certain truth claims. Feel free to expand on this rudimentary explanation.

The question I have then, is whether or not there is a middle way? Or rather does the Lord approve of such. Ultimately, I don't think my personal answer is binding on anyone but myself, but based on that stipulation I believe the answer to both questions is no. In contrast to the institutions of the world and the teachings and reason of modern philosophies, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to conformity. We are not expected to just be true to our self-perceived, authentic selves, but to be more like Christ. To change, to obey and to sacrifice. I don't want to get into what that does and does not mean with regards to the Church and local/general leadership here. 

Suffice it say, I don't think anyone, not even the best of us, is perfect at following the path the Lord has set. The more I think about it the more I realize there are probably things and sins in my life that demonstrate my own personal attempt to find a "middle way" of my own. I believe those attempts are ill-fated and unfruitful. I suppose that we each need to make choices for ourselves that put us not on some middle way, but on the straight and narrow way. 

If I knew exactly what the Lord wanted, then I would agree. But since I don't, I have to interpret things the best I can and forge a path that I think is best. I believe that path is inside Mormonism, though it looks a little different than the traditional path, ie a Middle Way.

 

[Mystery Meat]

49 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

Here is a quote by Pres. Uchtdorf that I have posted on my profile. It's a good one and will probably make you feel better about your middle-way woes!

"Being always in the middle means that the game is never over, hope is never lost, defeat is never final. For no matter where we are or what our circumstances, an eternity of beginnings and an eternity of endings stretch out before us.

We are always in the middle." Dieder F. Uchtdorf - July 2012

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think he had "middle way" in mind in his talk.

[bluebell]

I don't personally think that there is a middle way to be able to gain eternal life.  BUT, I don't think that God is upset with people who follow a middle way because they sincerely believe God is ok with it.

We all have incorrect ideas or beliefs; God will help us fix them eventually.  The important thing is to stay in a relationship with Him.

[The Nehor]

I doubt anyone on the Middle Way will be exalted unless they give up the Middle Way. Some people might find earthly value in it or even a better kingdom in the next life then they would otherwise and that is good as far as it goes I guess.

[Johnnie Cake]

I have nothing but the greatest respect for John Dehlin and the Mormon Stories Foundation...but if anyone needs evidence that members can live an authentic open middle way brand of Mormonism all they have to do is look to John and see what happened to him.

 

conformity and assimilation is valued more than authentic individualality 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I have nothing but the greatest respect for John Dehlin and the Mormon Stories Foundation...but if anyone needs evidence that members can live an authentic open middle way brand of Mormonism all they have to do is look to John and see what happened to him.

 

conformity and assimilation is valued more than authentic individualality 

Wait, Dehlin represents this Middle Way thing? Oh, in that case they are all going to burn in hell.  

Sorry, thought we were talking about something else.

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by The Nehor

[JLHPROF]

Not if you want to avoid getting spewed out.

[Glenn101]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not if you want to avoid getting spewed out.

I take it you are referring to these verses from Chapter 3 of the Book of revelations?:
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I am not going to try to decide who that refers to. I just want to be sure that it will not ultimately refer to me.

Glenn

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, churchistrue said:

If I knew exactly what the Lord wanted, then I would agree. But since I don't, I have to interpret things the best I can and forge a path that I think is best. I believe that path is inside Mormonism, though it looks a little different than the traditional path, ie a Middle Way.

 

I think that is fair. I don't believe it is my role to judge anyone. While I believe there are men called who have keys and authority to act as judges in Israel, I am not one of them. 

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don't personally think that there is a middle way to be able to gain eternal life.  BUT, I don't think that God is upset with people who follow a middle way because they sincerely believe God is ok with it.

We all have incorrect ideas or beliefs; God will help us fix them eventually.  The important thing is to stay in a relationship with Him.

This is what I was trying to say, but you did it so much better (not to mention succinctly) then me.

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I have nothing but the greatest respect for John Dehlin and the Mormon Stories Foundation...but if anyone needs evidence that members can live an authentic open middle way brand of Mormonism all they have to do is look to John and see what happened to him.

 

conformity and assimilation is valued more than authentic individualality 

I actually don't think you are wrong. I think Christianity in general is a quest to conform our will to the Lord's.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I actually don't think you are wrong. I think Christianity in general is a quest to conform our will to the Lord's.

The Lord's words on this topic from Mark 8:

Quote

33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

 

[rpn]

I sometimes wonder what church the people who label TBM'ers as such attend or have attended.   Their descriptions just don't ring familiar with the saints I have worshiped with in six states and 20 or so congregations over my own lifetime.

If "middle way" means what most church members actually live in the most Christlike way they know how to do, then I agree that is completely possible.    (Though I wouldn't put Dehlin in any "middle way" description.)

[Jeanne]

I think I could say so much about all of this...but I won't.  I will say that when I left the church, I knew nothing of John Dehlin.  Nothing.  Somewhere around 2009 we were connected by email..a question that I had online.  He asked me...Jeanne...would you like to try and stay in the church.  Not knowing that I had resigned..looking back..who knows what kind of difference that would have made in 2008...curse a middle way if you want..but you might have found family friends that would have remained.  What John asked me...my Bishop did not.

In any case..mentally I could not even do the middle way...I fell hard. 

[blueglass]

S

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think he had "middle way" in mind in his talk.

I like to think Pres. Uchtdorf is very aware of those that struggle. He may not have mean't this talk for the "middlewayer" like me, but in my mind, ever since reading it, it's made me feel less the sinful fencesitter. It's bought me some time to make the right decision when I figure it out. 

[JLHPROF]

43 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I am not going to try to decide who that refers to. I just want to be sure that it will not ultimately refer to me.

Glenn

Agreed.

I have nobody in mind.

But those who espouse a middle way generally reject some aspect of the gospel, making themselves lukewarm in their works.

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 It's bought me some time to make the right decision when I figure it out. 

I can only speak for myself, but I have an abundance of patience for people who are trying to figure things out. Keep figuring!

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT TRYING TO STIR THE POT AND I DON'T WANT ANYONE IN HERE TRYING TO EITHER

In another recent thread and in recent years the term "middle way mormonism" has been growing in popularity. I believe that folks like John Dehlin and Bill Reel are proponents of such (please correct me if I am wrong). As I understand it, those espousing the "middle way" are essentially saying that you don't have to be a hard line apostate or a TBM either, but that you can find value in the good that Mormonism can bring, even if that means rejecting certain truth claims. Feel free to expand on this rudimentary explanation.

The question I have then, is whether or not there is a middle way? Or rather does the Lord approve of such. Ultimately, I don't think my personal answer is binding on anyone but myself, but based on that stipulation I believe the answer to both questions is no. In contrast to the institutions of the world and the teachings and reason of modern philosophies, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to conformity. We are not expected to just be true to our self-perceived, authentic selves, but to be more like Christ. To change, to obey and to sacrifice. I don't want to get into what that does and does not mean with regards to the Church and local/general leadership here. 

Suffice it say, I don't think anyone, not even the best of us, is perfect at following the path the Lord has set. The more I think about it the more I realize there are probably things and sins in my life that demonstrate my own personal attempt to find a "middle way" of my own. I believe those attempts are ill-fated and unfruitful. I suppose that we each need to make choices for ourselves that put us not on some middle way, but on the straight and narrow way. 

There is a middle way and those who go down that path and remain on it will inherit the terrestrial kingdom of glory. The Lord is so merciful that even the lukewarm middle way believers will inherit a glory wherein they will enjoy the presence of the Son of God but not enjoy the presence of God the Father. Those who believe in part and commit themselves to the Lord in part will be rewarded in part.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. (i.e. those who allow themselves to be persuaded by the likes of John Dehlin who causes them to doubt and waver in their testimonies of the truth),

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. (D&C 76)