Is there a middle way?

[Tacenda]

40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, Apostle Amasa Lyman was excommunicated for publicly teaching that the Savior was just a man and there was no need for an atonement although he was a good man by all other accounts.  One of the questions for baptism is "Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?"

I would say if you don't believe there is a God or that you need a Savior there is no reason for you to be a member of the Church.
Why would you take sacrament or accept baptism if you don't have a belief in Christ?  Should you be allowed to?
If you don't believe in the sealing power of priesthood or eternal marriage should you be allowed to perform temple ordinances?

I am not talking about people with doubts or whose testimonies are in flux.  All of us have faith that ebbs and flows.
But if you truly don't believe in Christ, you should not be feigning acceptance of his sacrifice through baptism or partaking of the sacrament.  It's pure blasphemy.
If you don't believe Joseph was a prophet called by God you would therefore reject the Book of Mormon, the revelations, and the priesthood.  There is no place for a member who rejects those things.  And why on earth would they want to be a member?

http://www.ldsliving.com/Surviving-a-Faith-Crisis-with-the-Help-of-Church-Members/s/80563

[bluebell]

57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We like to hold new converts to a higher standard than current members.
It's kind of the same thing as asking potential US Citizen to pass a civics exam that half the US population would probably fail.
 

Good point.

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I really do wish we were more of a "we're all in this together" people.  But division must be amongst us foolish mortals I guess.

But I am confused by your approach here.  You say, "And I'm not really talking about making someone feel accepted or unaccepted.  I'm not coming at the question from the point of view of the person with the unorthodox beliefs but from the perspective of a person who is not a middle-wayer but who is trying to figure out if that kind of belief system is acceptable to God."How do you know what is acceptable to God? 

The answer is probably different for everyone.  I think for most members its a combination of evidence found in the scriptures, living prophets, prayer, and guidance from the Holy Ghost.

It gets a little more intriguing to me in the next line when you said, "The baptismal interview questions is a good example of the doctrines that i'm talking about.  Does someone have to answer those questions correctly in order to be baptized and become a member of the Mormon church?  Are there some beliefs that people can't hold and still join the church?  Are there doctrines that people must believe to join the church?"

Quote

Is the Church God in this approach?  That is for all intents and purposes it seems like your measuring stick in determining what is acceptable to God is what the church has decided is acceptable for baptism. 

I'm not sure if the phrase 'Church God' is a typo or if it's a phrase you want me to consider that I don't understand.  Can you clarify this question?

 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.ldsliving.com/Surviving-a-Faith-Crisis-with-the-Help-of-Church-Members/s/80563

Surviving a faith crisis is priority one.  It is Christ and the ninety and nine.  Once again, I am not addressing those with questions and doubts who need their shepherd.
I am addressing those who have chosen to reject the shepherd completely but think they should remain with the flock.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Surviving a faith crisis is priority one.  It is Christ and the ninety and nine.  Once again, I am not addressing those with questions and doubts who need their shepherd.
I am addressing those who have chosen to reject the shepherd completely but think they should remain with the flock.

What does it mean to survive a faith crisis? If one's faith is misplaced, the preferred outcome would be to reject that faith in favor of a better faith, would it not?

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The answer is probably different for everyone.  I think for most members its a combination of evidence found in the scriptures, living prophets, prayer, and guidance from the Holy Ghost.

Oh I agree.  That's what makes this hard.  If its individual, then no wonder so many of us approach it all differently and have differing beliefs.  We should be more accepting of our brothers and sisters. 

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It gets a little more intriguing to me in the next line when you said, "The baptismal interview questions is a good example of the doctrines that i'm talking about.  Does someone have to answer those questions correctly in order to be baptized and become a member of the Mormon church?  Are there some beliefs that people can't hold and still join the church?  Are there doctrines that people must believe to join the church?"

I'm not sure if the phrase 'Church God' is a typo or if it's a phrase you want me to consider that I don't understand.  Can you clarify this question?

 

It seems to me you have equated Church and God.  Is God really just the Church in this approach? 

[CV75]

40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Disciplinary counseling is outside of my pay grade.  I am no judge.
But as I just said to Tacenda, for example, if you reject Christ as Savior you really have no business getting baptized (for converts) or partaking of the sacrament (for members).
It's the very definition of blasphemy.

Definitely. I posted above how the baptismal interview would prevent the realization of the hypothetical you present, but yes, people can lie and people who didn't lie or fully understand in the interview can still decide to reject Him later. Because we are no judges, our obligation is to minister to them until they remove themselves or are removed from membership. I'm not sure how the saints would know that one among them is committing blasphemy unless he voiced it, but in any case someone can become so obnoxious, offensive and abusive in connection with or as a result of their unapparent blasphemy that they find themselves alone anyway. At that point a bishop typically gets involved on some level.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It seems to me you have equated Church and God.  Is God really just the Church in this approach? 

I believe that Christ is the head of the church.  I don't believe that God is the church, but rather that the church is God's and operates with His authority.

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

What does it mean to survive a faith crisis? If one's faith is misplaced, the preferred outcome would be to reject that faith in favor of a better faith, would it not?

If a faith is rejected, then continued membership amongst that faith would be foolish, would it not?
It is disrespectful of them and yourself to engage in professions of a faith you don't have.  If you are reevaluating your faith due to questions that is a different issue.

Misplaced faith vs apostasy is a very fine line.

Edited October 6, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

54 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Definitely. I posted above how the baptismal interview would prevent the realization of the hypothetical you present, but yes, people can lie and people who didn't lie or fully understand in the interview can still decide to reject Him later. Because we are no judges, our obligation is to minister to them until they remove themselves or are removed from membership. I'm not sure how the saints would know that one among them is committing blasphemy unless he voiced it, but in any case someone can become so obnoxious, offensive and abusive in connection with or as a result of their unapparent blasphemy that they find themselves alone anyway. At that point a bishop typically gets involved on some level.

How about when they're eight? So many members were interviewed at this young age, and then were completely indoctrinated in the culture to believe. Then when something comes along to shake that faith, it's amazingly shocking to their system. Some move on and are fine, others like myself find it impossible to leave. Or they'd leave their relationships behind. Or a relationship behind where there is a mutual belief. Middle-way is a way to straddle two paths, I guess that's the fence that we have been taught about. But I believe we shouldn't be expected to jump to either side if one needs to be in both worlds at the same time. If they're told to jump and make a decision, then that new world would mean saying goodbye to a lot of wonderful things. 

Currently I'm back into a situation which happens twice a year. That is that I wonder if I need to continue my facade or finally come out to my in laws. They go to the temple in honor of my MIL and FIL's birthdays. Time and time again, my husband has made up excuses and we only join them for dinner afterwards. This year I told my husband I should tell them the truth. But then I start worrying that our relationship will be compromised. Or what if, big what if, I cause my MIL to doubt if I shared why I quit belief. She is the most devoted LDS person I know. Spent most her life attending the temple once a week. I can't hurt her.  

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Tacenda

[stemelbow]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I believe that Christ is the head of the church.  I don't believe that God is the church, but rather that the church is God's and operates with His authority.

So in your view if a middle wayer is one who holds to the baptismal questions then such a one is acceptable to God?   If one eventually comes to the conclusions that he/she can't answer them how the Church determines then the one is not acceptable to God? 

[Jeanne]

30 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

How about when they're eight? So many members were interviewed at this young age, and then were completely indoctrinated in the culture to believe. Then when something comes along to shake that faith, it's amazingly shocking to their system. Some move on and are fine, others like myself find it impossible to leave. Or they'd leave their relationships behind. Or an authentic relationship behind. Middle-way is a way to straddle two paths in some way. Oh, I guess that's the fence that we have been taught about. But I believe we shouldn't be expected to jump to either side if one needs to be in both worlds at the same time. If they're told to jump and make a decision, then that new world would mean saying goodbye to a lot of wonderful things. 

Currently I'm back into a situation which happens twice a year. That is that I wonder if I need to continue my facade or finally come out to my in laws. They go to the temple in honor of my MIL and FIL's birthdays. Time and time again, my husband has made up excuses. And we only join them for dinner afterwards. This year I told my husband I should tell them the truth. But then I start worrying that our relationship will be compromised. Or what if, big what if, I cause my MIL to doubt if I shared why I quit belief. She is the most devoted LDS person I know. Spent most her life attending the temple once a week. I can't hurt her.  

 

My heart breaks for you.  Is it time to get off the fence???  I dunno ...just big hugs and support here from Jeanne. 

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So in your view if a middle wayer is one who holds to the baptismal questions then such a one is acceptable to God?  

No, I already expressed my view on the first page of this thread-

"I don't personally think that there is a middle way to be able to gain eternal life.  BUT, I don't think that God is upset with people who follow a middle way because they sincerely believe God is ok with it.  We all have incorrect ideas or beliefs; God will help us fix them eventually.  The important thing is to stay in a relationship with Him."

Now I'm thinking about this topic from an intellectual point of view. I'm trying to reason it out and understand it objectively, from a more academic perspective.  If a person believes that God is completely uninterested in them and that He doesn't intervene or pay attention to what is going on down here, can that person even have a relationship with Him?  Can doing something because they believe it's what God wants even figure into the equation?

Quote

If one eventually comes to the conclusions that he/she can't answer them how the Church determines then the one is not acceptable to God? 

From my experience, unless the person is actively and/or publicly teaching that their answers to those questions are really the correct ones and the church is wrong, the church doesn't bother determining anything about the person.

Edited October 6, 2017 by bluebell

[jkwilliams]

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

How about when they're eight? So many members were interviewed at this young age, and then were completely indoctrinated in the culture to believe. Then when something comes along to shake that faith, it's amazingly shocking to their system. Some move on and are fine, others like myself find it impossible to leave. Or they'd leave their relationships behind. Or relationship behind where there is a mutual belief. Middle-way is a way to straddle two paths in some way. Oh, I guess that's the fence that we have been taught about. But I believe we shouldn't be expected to jump to either side if one needs to be in both worlds at the same time. If they're told to jump and make a decision, then that new world would mean saying goodbye to a lot of wonderful things. 

Currently I'm back into a situation which happens twice a year. That is that I wonder if I need to continue my facade or finally come out to my in laws. They go to the temple in honor of my MIL and FIL's birthdays. Time and time again, my husband has made up excuses. And we only join them for dinner afterwards. This year I told my husband I should tell them the truth. But then I start worrying that our relationship will be compromised. Or what if, big what if, I cause my MIL to doubt if I shared why I quit belief. She is the most devoted LDS person I know. Spent most her life attending the temple once a week. I can't hurt her.  

I'm sorry you are in that situation. Losing one's faith is a terrible loss in itself, but the ramifications for relationships are just that more difficult. I wish there were a good answer, but really, you can only do your best to do what you believe is right.

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

How about when they're eight? So many members were interviewed at this young age, and then were completely indoctrinated in the culture to believe. Then when something comes along to shake that faith, it's amazingly shocking to their system. Some move on and are fine, others like myself find it impossible to leave. Or they'd leave their relationships behind. Or a relationship behind where there is a mutual belief. Middle-way is a way to straddle two paths, I guess that's the fence that we have been taught about. But I believe we shouldn't be expected to jump to either side if one needs to be in both worlds at the same time. If they're told to jump and make a decision, then that new world would mean saying goodbye to a lot of wonderful things. 

Currently I'm back into a situation which happens twice a year. That is that I wonder if I need to continue my facade or finally come out to my in laws. They go to the temple in honor of my MIL and FIL's birthdays. Time and time again, my husband has made up excuses. And we only join them for dinner afterwards. This year I told my husband I should tell them the truth. But then I start worrying that our relationship will be compromised. Or what if, big what if, I cause my MIL to doubt if I shared why I quit belief. She is the most devoted LDS person I know. Spent most her life attending the temple once a week. I can't hurt her.  

 

That's a difficult situation to be in.  There is a line in a popular song that says "This is who I am inside.  This is who I am, I'm not gonna hide, Cause the greatest risk we'll ever take is by far, To stand in the light and be seen as we are."

Being who we are, with weaknesses and strengths on display, is a risk, and most of us don't have the courage to do it.  But hiding who we are has it's own unpleasant and harmful consequences too.  I hope you can find a way to be more honest with your family and still retain those important relationships.  

 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

A creed is a formal statement.  I'm not asking about the acceptance of formal statements.  And I'm not really talking about making someone feel accepted or unaccepted.  I'm not coming at the question from the point of view of the person with the unorthodox beliefs but from the perspective of a person who is not a middle-wayer but who is trying to figure out if that kind of belief system is acceptable to God.

The baptismal interview questions is a good example of the doctrines that i'm talking about.  Does someone have to answer those questions correctly in order to be baptized and become a member of the Mormon church?  Are there some beliefs that people can't hold and still join the church?  Are there doctrines that people must believe to join the church?

If the answers to those questions are 'yes,' then what does that mean in regards to those people who are very much members right now, but who would never be allowed to become members if they had to answer those questions again?

From my perspective, this is one of the reasons that a lot of members have so much trouble with the idea of a middle-way.  We have members who got baptized before their beliefs changed, but who would never be allowed to be baptized today with their current beliefs.  They are both mormon but then not mormon at the same time.  For a lot of members, that's hard to doctrinally wrap their heads around.  

You're right. That's hard to wrap for a lot of people, myself included, to wrap our head around. Partially because it's such an offensive position. I imagine someone sitting beside me in the pew, determining for themselves that I am not Mormon enough for them. I believe that kind of personal judgment is unacceptable to God.

[CV75]

46 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

How about when they're eight? So many members were interviewed at this young age, and then were completely indoctrinated in the culture to believe. Then when something comes along to shake that faith, it's amazingly shocking to their system. Some move on and are fine, others like myself find it impossible to leave. Or they'd leave their relationships behind. Or an authentic relationship behind. Middle-way is a way to straddle two paths in some way. Oh, I guess that's the fence that we have been taught about. But I believe we shouldn't be expected to jump to either side if one needs to be in both worlds at the same time. If they're told to jump and make a decision, then that new world would mean saying goodbye to a lot of wonderful things. 

Currently I'm back into a situation which happens twice a year. That is that I wonder if I need to continue my facade or finally come out to my in laws. They go to the temple in honor of my MIL and FIL's birthdays. Time and time again, my husband has made up excuses. And we only join them for dinner afterwards. This year I told my husband I should tell them the truth. But then I start worrying that our relationship will be compromised. Or what if, big what if, I cause my MIL to doubt if I shared why I quit belief. She is the most devoted LDS person I know. Spent most her life attending the temple once a week. I can't hurt her. 

I think your family and ward members are obliged to serve you, and you are obliged to serve them to the extent you are able.

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

It's the way you interpret the scripture, this is not exegesis, and the scriptures are not quoting Jesus.  

According to scripture Jesus said that He cam to cause division.  

If we shouldn't use the scriptures to help us determine what Jesus's gospel should be, what should we use?  I don't think that the 'this is what the gospel is supposed to be but I have no authority to declare it and nothing but my own opinions to support it', argument is a valid answer but if you've got something else to offer I'd be interested in hearing it. 

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You're right. That's hard to wrap for a lot of people, myself included, to wrap our head around. Partially because it's such an offensive position. I imagine someone sitting beside me in the pew, determining for themselves that I am not Mormon enough for them. I believe that kind of personal judgment is unacceptable to God.

In case you missed where I said it before, i'm asking these questions from an academic point of view, leaving feelings completely out of it.  I'm trying to figure out if a 'middle-way' mormon always objectively makes sense.   

It can only be described as an offensive position if feelings are taking into consideration.  Leaving feelings out of it, what evidence is there to support that it's offensive?

[Tacenda]

Thanks to those that have reached out, I appreciate that I can talk on here about my problems openly.

In keeping with the topic, I found this article in the Deseret News.https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865668355/Mormons-with-doubts-shouldnt-give-up-faith-without-intellectual-and-spiritual-kicking-and.html And a comment that resonated. 

"Dec. 1, 2016 2:04 p.m.

What the author does not seem to recognize, or acknowledge, are that the social costs of leaving the LDS church are so high, that one does not simply abandon the faith on a whim. 

To leave the church, for most, is to leave your place of belonging. Your tribe, your spiritual home. To leave the church is to face parents who are devastated, wracked by the pain that they might have failed you, or perhaps will accuse you of being too weak to withstand the temptations of Satan. It is to face attitudes from both friends and strangers that your apostasy is chalked up to character faults and intellectual and spiritual laziness. These are huge costs, these social costs. Many people with doubts and outright unbelief stay in the church, closeted, in order not to pay them. These people have chosen to forego their own spiritual truth to hold onto their community, to maintain marital harmony, to spare their spouses the shame, to avoid becoming seen as "less-than" in their LDS community. I am sorry to say this article does nothing to decrease that from happening."

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

"Dec. 1, 2016 2:04 p.m.

What the author does not seem to recognize, or acknowledge, are that the social costs of leaving the LDS church are so high, that one does not simply abandon the faith on a whim. 

To leave the church, for most, is to leave your place of belonging. Your tribe, your spiritual home. To leave the church is to face parents who are devastated, wracked by the pain that they might have failed you, or perhaps will accuse you of being too weak to withstand the temptations of Satan. It is to face attitudes from both friends and strangers that your apostasy is chalked up to character faults and intellectual and spiritual laziness. These are huge costs, these social costs. Many people with doubts and outright unbelief stay in the church, closeted, in order not to pay them. These people have chosen to forego their own spiritual truth to hold onto their community, to maintain marital harmony, to spare their spouses the shame, to avoid becoming seen as "less-than" in their LDS community. I am sorry to say this article does nothing to decrease that from happening."

For those who are active in the church when they decide to leave, this is definitely true.  

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks to those that have reached out, I appreciate that I can talk on here about my problems openly.

In keeping with the topic, I found this article in the Deseret News.https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865668355/Mormons-with-doubts-shouldnt-give-up-faith-without-intellectual-and-spiritual-kicking-and.html And a comment that resonated. 

"Dec. 1, 2016 2:04 p.m.

What the author does not seem to recognize, or acknowledge, are that the social costs of leaving the LDS church are so high, that one does not simply abandon the faith on a whim. 

To leave the church, for most, is to leave your place of belonging. Your tribe, your spiritual home. To leave the church is to face parents who are devastated, wracked by the pain that they might have failed you, or perhaps will accuse you of being too weak to withstand the temptations of Satan. It is to face attitudes from both friends and strangers that your apostasy is chalked up to character faults and intellectual and spiritual laziness. These are huge costs, these social costs. Many people with doubts and outright unbelief stay in the church, closeted, in order not to pay them. These people have chosen to forego their own spiritual truth to hold onto their community, to maintain marital harmony, to spare their spouses the shame, to avoid becoming seen as "less-than" in their LDS community. I am sorry to say this article does nothing to decrease that from happening."

Here's something I wrote about this subject a few years ago. tl;dr: Don't make the mistakes I did.

https://runtu.wordpress.com/2015/02/20/repost-expert-ex-mormon/

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Here's something I wrote about this subject a few years ago. tl;dr: Don't make the mistakes I did.

https://runtu.wordpress.com/2015/02/20/repost-expert-ex-mormon/

Priceless, saving in my "bookmarks". Thanks JK!!

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Priceless, saving in my "bookmarks". Thanks JK!!

I shouldn't have to say this, but that piece I wrote in no way is intended to encourage anyone to leave the church. Rather, it is designed to help people navigate a difficult situation once a decision has been made. 

[stemelbow]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, I already expressed my view on the first page of this thread-

"I don't personally think that there is a middle way to be able to gain eternal life.  BUT, I don't think that God is upset with people who follow a middle way because they sincerely believe God is ok with it.  We all have incorrect ideas or beliefs; God will help us fix them eventually.  The important thing is to stay in a relationship with Him."

 

Well pardon my confusion.  Let me see if I got you then, because I'm not sure this is addressing the question.  it seems you are saying that someone who is middle way is not acceptable to God because to be middle way means you cannot gain eternal life? 

When you say the important thing is to stay in a relationship with God, what does that mean?  I wonder because on my view even those who are unbelievers have relationship with God, they simply don't realize it. 

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

Now I'm thinking about this topic from an intellectual point of view. I'm trying to reason it out and understand it objectively, from a more academic perspective.  If a person believes that God is completely uninterested in them and that He doesn't intervene or pay attention to what is going on down here, can that person even have a relationship with Him?

If someone believes such and yet God still inspires and works inside such a one, then yes.  Is the relationship you speak of only important, or effective, if the mortal human is cognizant of that relationship?  Also, are you saying the someone who is middle way sees God as up there but doesn't pay attention or interact with mortal beings at all? 

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 Can doing something because they believe it's what God wants even figure into the equation?

Yes.  I believe God works inside many, even those who don't believe.   

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

From my experience, unless the person is actively and/or publicly teaching that their answers to those questions are really the correct ones and the church is wrong, the church doesn't bother determining anything about the person.

Ok.  As you said, "I believe that Christ is the head of the church.  I don't believe that God is the church, but rather that the church is God's and operates with His authority."

it sounds to me, effectively then, the Church defines what is acceptable to God when it comes to belief?  That is, when you say you are approaching this with respect to whether the middle way believer is acceptable to God, the church has defined what is acceptable to God?