CNN article on Mormon dating issues

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

My wife and I are friends with a single LDS woman. She's a great person, very intelligent, has served as RS president, has a PhD, etc. But she's barely hanging on. It's very hard to be a single adult in the church.

I think the three hardest things for people not otherwise inclined to apostasy are: single adulthood, inability to have children, and divorce. When people I know have lost their testimony after having always been strong, one of these has almost always been a factor --- arguably *the* factor. 

Your phrase "barely hanging on" brought this to mind. Sometimes good people's grip slips, but they're trying to hold on. These three things are very difficult for Latter-day Saints, given our doctrinal and cultural emphasis on eternal family and children.

[Five Solas]

An awful lot depends on your location.  Back in the day (mid-90's to early aughts) I DJ'd YSA regional and some Institute dances (before I got expelled from the latter over some contrarian remarks made in a class).  I'd usually play 3 - 5 songs in an ever-rising tempo--to drive the floor.  And then I'd break with something slow (Sting's "Fragile" was always one of my personal favorites for the occasion).  And then I'd start the process over again.  

Every time I'd do a slow, couples would pair up, and left along the walls in the stake center (or wherever) would just be young men, often dozens of them, left standing around (the regional dances were large, 300+).  Every single girl had been asked & was on the floor.  And the guys, well, they sure weren't much inclined to slow dance with each other...

;0)

But that's in Seattle where companies like Boeing Commercial Airplanes, Microsoft and Amazon attract young engineers from universities across the globe--engineers who overwhelmingly skew male.  Many dating sites had a gender ratio of nearly 2 to 1 for the locale.  I don't know if that's still true today (celebrated my 10-year wedding anniversary with my bride earlier this year--so I haven't kept up with it).  But given the pace of local STEM hiring and the increasing IT bent of Seattle--I'd be surprised if the disparity had changed much.

We've had a couple threads about the decline of the LDS population in Seattle and urban areas generally and the various reasons LDS find such places unpleasant/unwelcoming.  Many LDS are uncomfortable with local politics with its liberal, collective bent (to give one example shared from previous).  And so LDS are leaving and wards are closing and consolidating, including the UW affiliated YSA wards (which have gone from 4 to 2 in the past dozen years).

But if I were a single LDS woman and I wanted to maximize my prospects for marriage--I'd run to, not from, Seattle.  There are other values and considerations--I get it.  And people need to decide for themselves what matters most--I get that too. 

--Erik

___________________________

I am a DJ
I am what I play

--David Bowie, 1979

[Judd]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I am a bit confused by this statistic

Does that mean that 49% of women under 18 are married??  That doesn't sound right.

Of those Mormon women over the age of 18, 51% are single.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Just had to say...and I haven't had a chance to read this yet...but women should marry those they love...mormon or not..IMO. A lot of good kind men out there that would put wives/families above all else..with God.

Agree, and if the single women only hold out for an LDS man to take her to the temple, there's no guarantee that he will be good for her. I've read some pretty horrid stories about the situation turning bleak when the bride finds out her now husband isn't what he seeemed to be. And is into porn, or had other habits that weren't healthy or treated her poorly after they wed.

I think there are some amazing men that aren't LDS out there and these single women are missing out, even to the point of going to their death and having never married because they're holding out for the LDS man.

[california boy]

58 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think it means 49% of women over 18 are married. 

Got it.  I thought i was reading that wrong.

[clarkgoble]

10 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I try not to think about it. But I'm 29, date men my age or older (I hate younger), and I have noticed that the ones well older than me start to have some - uhh - quirks that I'm not a fan of. Women (and men) should choose for themselves as to who they marry. For myself, that choice isn't super necessary since I live in UT. So far, I've never had a date with a non-mormon and it isn't likely to happen any time soon.

That's a big issue. For people over 25 you start to develop habits - not even bad habits but just you get set in your ways, have your interests and so forth. During the early 20s most people are pretty malleable in interests which makes dating easier in some ways. You then just have people who are socially ignorant or have issues in their lives. What's frustrating is when you have certain things you're interested in but the majority of your dating pool doesn't have the same interests. I'll admit I was pretty clueless in my early 20's - I frequently wish I could go back and slap some sense into myself. But by the time I figured things out the type of people I found myself interested in were all married or not living in my area. I hated dating younger people but in practice that's what ended up happening just because they either didn't have strong interests or had the interests I had. (Or they pursued me rather than vice versa)

The non-Mormon thing is tricky. I often found I had much more in common in many ways with non-Mormons than many of the Mormons in my wards. But there's obvious issues there and big incompatibilities if your faith is important to you. My brother ended up marrying a non-Mormon partially due to having pretty similar feelings on things to me. (Clueless in the early 20s when there was opportunity, and just not being compatible with those around when you figured things out)

[Amulek]

Quote

Brown, 31, said he "often went on multiple dates a day" while a student at Brigham Young University. Nonetheless, he graduated single.

Based on how this is phrased, I assume that "multiple dates a day" means multiple dates with different women each day. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a recipe for success. 

One of the things I have noticed is how many young men and women seem to struggle with making the shift away from 'dating for fun' to 'dating for a relationship.' If I were ever called to be a mission president, the last piece of advice I would offer to every returning missionary during his exit interview would be that it's time to transition away from group dating. 

[clarkgoble]

52 minutes ago, rongo said:

Your phrase "barely hanging on" brought this to mind. Sometimes good people's grip slips, but they're trying to hold on. These three things are very difficult for Latter-day Saints, given our doctrinal and cultural emphasis on eternal family and children.

The main issue, at least back when I was single in my early 30's, is simply your peers. When you're single you have free time. When you're married you typically don't. That means married people just don't form a realistic social net. That's not to say you can't be friends, but the nature of the relationship is very different. You get bored. You want to do things. You want to do things with people with similar interests. If, as is so often the case, the group of Mormon single peers don't really connect you're choice is to be bored and lonely or else socialize with non-Mormons. That in turn almost always has practical effects on ones spirituality. (Which isn't a knock on non-Mormons in the least - just that the times you're spiritually not as strong you don't have people building you up and the differing values often make it hard to stay spiritual at such times)

[Maidservant]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

she should marry a man whom she loves and who treats her right and loves her and who is a good man

I am forty-six and have been widowed for over 12 years.  I live in a very small (very Mormon) town.  Most of the single men are related to me, ha ha ha.  Or my husband, more accurately.

Anyway, I have known from the beginning that if I want to/am able to marry (barring a miracle of the highest kind), it will be a non-member.  So I have never imagined otherwise.  So my only criteria is what rongo says above.

I have three other difficult issues (difficult to me).

One is that I am a very strange person.  I have a huge Mormon 'side' and a huge 'every other religion and paradigm' side.  I like my hymns.  And I like my death metal.  I don't think my purpose in life is to clean house.  And I am in the middle of doing my part to save the world.  I don't want to settle down--I'm just getting started!  Anyway, I will have to find another unique individual like me, or someone who can see me and enjoy me the way I am.  I kind of think it would be more likely to be a non-Mormon who loves Mormons than a strictly Mormon.  But let's see?  Maybe another Mormon guy with the same groove :).

Second is that I am sealed to my husband.  They might as well have thrown me on the funeral pyre, as most LDS men will not touch me with a ten foot pole because they want to marry someone they can be sealed to; or as a "companion" until death do us part.  If I get married again and build a oneness with someone, I'm not saying good-bye to anyone!  So, yea, I am considered owned by my husband, and that's that, folks.  So I am only viable to other sealed men as a temporary wife, and really I am on the search for the love of my life, not a "companionship".  And other sealed, widowed men are SCARCE, at least in the age group I have been in so far.  They get snapped up in a jiffy.  I tried that search on an lds dating site, and there were FIVE.  Ha ha ha.  So I figure a non-member will not really have this issue, I'll just be me.  (FYI, I have no intention of spending eternity with my first husband (barring a miracle of the highest kind), but I value my sealing because we have a family with our children.)

Third is that I am NOT normally attracted to men my age and older (although really anyone who fit me as a personality and treats me right would instantly become attractive).  I am looking for a younger man, or a man young at heart.  I find that a little difficult in young men Mormondom, as they usually haven't really considered older women.  I mean, it doesn't ring every one's bell, I get that.  But the possibility isn't really even there except for a few brave souls.

Anyway.  I ABSOLUTELY love being single.  I would rather enjoy my freedom.  Any marriage would have to be a step up, not back, in freedom.  It would have to be easy and sweet, as I have no intention of spending my days in a hell similar to the one of my first marriage.  But, like anyone, I would also like to love and be loved if I could find the right man to serve for his happiness, too.

 

52 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I doubt polygamy will come back, that'll sink the Church.

I wouldn't say I'm a fan of polygamy, but being in my situation for years with no end in sight, I will admit that there have been moments when I have just thought to myself, "Gosh, will anyone just LEND their husband to me for one day a month!!  That's all I'm asking!!"  Ha ha ha.

[clarkgoble]

2 minutes ago, Amulek said:

One of the things I have noticed is how many young men and women seem to struggle with making the shift away from 'dating for fun' to 'dating for a relationship.' If I were ever called to be a mission president, the last piece of advice I would offer to every returning missionary during his exit interview would be that it's time to transition away from group dating. 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the majority of missionaries haven't really even dated for fun much.

There certainly are people who date for fun, which often at BYU means somewhat chaste hookups. But it's typically a smaller number of people than most assume. And the people who have skills at that often don't have skills at relationship type dating. I know lots of people who were extremely popular socially in their early 20's and then struggled by their late 20's. 

I've no idea how things are now, but if there's one thing I know having older people tell younger people to get married doesn't help and just stresses them out. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the majority of missionaries haven't really even dated for fun much.

There certainly are people who date for fun, which often at BYU means somewhat chaste hookups. But it's typically a smaller number of people than most assume. And the people who have skills at that often don't have skills at relationship type dating. I know lots of people who were extremely popular socially in their early 20's and then struggled by their late 20's. 

I've no idea how things are now, but if there's one thing I know having older people tell younger people to get married doesn't help and just stresses them out. 

I agree.  I don't think a lot of guys have any idea how to actually date someone.  In high school it's pretty much either groups hanging out or steady dating (which seems like an odd dichotomy, but that's how it usually works).  Once the social scene changes so that people can't rely on finding partners from within the safety of a group, people seem to struggle.  A lot of them don't have the social skillset (or confidence) to ask girls for dates.

[Jeanne]

57 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Agree, and if the single women only hold out for an LDS man to take her to the temple, there's no guarantee that he will be good for her. I've read some pretty horrid stories about the situation turning bleak when the bride finds out her now husband isn't what he seeemed to be. And is into porn, or had other habits that weren't healthy or treated her poorly after they wed.

I think there are some amazing men that aren't LDS out there and these single women are missing out, even to the point of going to their death and having never married because they're holding out for the LDS man.

So agree...and I just don't believe that God meant us to be alone...you don't prove anything by being alone..and you don't grow either.

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  I don't think a lot of guys have any idea how to actually date someone.  In high school it's pretty much either groups hanging out or steady dating (which seems like an odd dichotomy, but that's how it usually works) . . .  A lot of them don't have the social skillset (or confidence) to ask girls for dates.

*This* is the great tragedy of steady dating among LDS teens. I see it as a bishop, a parent, and as a high school teacher. The vast majority of LDS teens who date, pair off (contra Church counsel). The problem isn't as much that they get into trouble, it's that their relationships to their friends change. They become like quasi-married couples, and they aren't fun to their friends any more. They have more drama when the break-ups happen, and they go into a depressed funk. And, since they've been with one person for so long, their skills at interacting with different dating partners is stunted --- especially since they are accustomed to the steady relationship.

I tell all youth (member and non-member) to enjoy their childhood and youth. Don't be in such a hurry to grow up and be adults (in this aspect)! 

 

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

My wife and I are friends with a single LDS woman. She's a great person, very intelligent, has served as RS president, has a PhD, etc. But she's barely hanging on. It's very hard to be a single adult in the church.

Statistically speaking they are very likely to become inactive.

[Amulek]

58 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I've no idea how things are now, but if there's one thing I know having older people tell younger people to get married doesn't help and just stresses them out. 

I think it depends on how it is expressed. For example, when I was attending a singles ward at BYU I remember our Bishop talking about getting married all of about one time per year. He basically said that he thought we all should get married...to someone...at some point. I don't think there is anything stress-inducing about those kinds of comments. I can imagine situations where that wouldn't be the case; I just don't have any direct experience with those kinds of situations.

[Darren10]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

The taboo about interfaith marriage really needs to go. It's better to marry a good non-Mormon than to be alone your whole life.

I think there's definitely room to adjust how we as Mormons "prohibit" marrying non Mormons but I think it should be a goal for every Mormon to marry in the temple; and that goal should be regularly emphasized.

[Nofear]

I'm not sure I believe the 150 women per 100 men statistic. Recent surveys (pew and prri) cite a ratios of 54-52% female to 46-48% men. Of course, that isn't the ratio of the single subgroup but it doesn't seem to me that it should be significantly different.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Nofear

[Gray]

53 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

I think there's definitely room to adjust how we as Mormons "prohibit" marrying non Mormons but I think it should be a goal for every Mormon to marry in the temple; and that goal should be regularly emphasized.

I'm not sure how both goals are achieved at once though

[cinepro]

13 hours ago, Duncan said:

I have a some friends getting divorced, members, married in the Temple. I wonder what the future will hold for them, datingwise.

I've heard it said that people considering a divorce should be made to "chaperone" a single adult dance first.

 

As for the dating app, I don't know if it's any good, but their ad is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf5dVv0D1_8

 

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

That's a big issue. For people over 25 you start to develop habits - not even bad habits but just you get set in your ways, have your interests and so forth. During the early 20s most people are pretty malleable in interests which makes dating easier in some ways. You then just have people who are socially ignorant or have issues in their lives. What's frustrating is when you have certain things you're interested in but the majority of your dating pool doesn't have the same interests. I'll admit I was pretty clueless in my early 20's - I frequently wish I could go back and slap some sense into myself. But by the time I figured things out the type of people I found myself interested in were all married or not living in my area. I hated dating younger people but in practice that's what ended up happening just because they either didn't have strong interests or had the interests I had. (Or they pursued me rather than vice versa)

The non-Mormon thing is tricky. I often found I had much more in common in many ways with non-Mormons than many of the Mormons in my wards. But there's obvious issues there and big incompatibilities if your faith is important to you. My brother ended up marrying a non-Mormon partially due to having pretty similar feelings on things to me. (Clueless in the early 20s when there was opportunity, and just not being compatible with those around when you figured things out)

Yeah. My problem is that my interests and pursuits have always been a little specific and I'm definitely strongly opinionated. There's groups of people in UT where my interests fit or overlap. It's just rare that all of it fits or there isn't one or two major parts sticking weirdly. I'm also getting used to dating actual Utahns. Before this year, I don't know if I've ever gone on more than one date with a Utahn. It's the first time that the cultural differences really do stick out to me more. I forget how insulated I am from that. 

The problem I'm finding with some of those that fit me is that some of them have found ways to intellectualize themselves into a weird no-man's land of faith...neither fully mormon but not non-mormon either. I was dating one of those guys for a while this summer and I remember during that time being with a group of polys that had more definitive faith than he. We were all sharing our growth in faith and it felt so good and filling to me....it exacerbated the sense of deficit with the guy, where it felt like I was teaching him a different perspective than the one he was working with. Faith is absolutely central to who I am. So I know that living with someone that its more periphery would be really difficult for me. He was always respectful, but it just wasn't the same.  

 

With luv,

BD   

[bsjkki]

29 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I've heard it said that people considering a divorce should be made to "chaperone" a single adult dance first.

 

As for the dating app, I don't know if it's any good, but their ad is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf5dVv0D1_8

 

That was too funny! Thanks for the laugh.

[Duncan]

36 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I've heard it said that people considering a divorce should be made to "chaperone" a single adult dance first.

 

As for the dating app, I don't know if it's any good, but their ad is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf5dVv0D1_8

 

it's funny, I actually know the girl with the white blouse! hahahahhaha! She is married and was that when she shot the video, she met some british guy when they served missions together. The England to Utah dating scene can be quite costly! but they made it work somehow!

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

I've heard it said that people considering a divorce should be made to "chaperone" a single adult dance first.

 

As for the dating app, I don't know if it's any good, but their ad is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf5dVv0D1_8

 

I jsut now got to watch the ad, that was pretty funny.

[wtrdog]

"Mutual, a dating app created exclusively for Mormons and monitored by members who ensure only faithful users participate"

ROFL!

So the app features a kind of "strengthening church members" feature that allows other members to tattle if someone isn't sufficiently "active"...?  Don't date this guy, he only comes twice a month and never cries in testimony meeting! 

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, wtrdog said:

"Mutual, a dating app created exclusively for Mormons and monitored by members who ensure only faithful users participate"

ROFL!

So the app features a kind of "strengthening church members" feature that allows other members to tattle if someone isn't sufficiently "active"...?  Don't date this guy, he only comes twice a month and never cries in testimony meeting! 

Uhhh....no. I think they mean more like people looking for explicit hook-ups or that are creepers. Tinder is full of them. There's still a range of mormon on the app. But I've never gotten people who've posted inappropriate pics or something, for example. Online app dating can be like picking through the trash pile.