Why Three, then Eight Witnesses?

[USU78]

Together they make 11, make that 12 with JSJr.

Why that number? Why that configuration?

[Benjamin Seeker]

In Early Mormonism and the the Magic World View, Michael Quinn proposed that it was a kind of numerology. at the beginning of the 1830 BoM, JS as sole proprietor + 3 witnesses + 8 witnesses = 12, a biblically significant number.

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Together they make 11, make that 12 with JSJr.

Why that number? Why that configuration?

Joseph doesn't really count as a witness to outsiders looking in. Being that his own veracity, for good or for evil, was the issue at hand. 

As to the first grouping, the law of witnesses requires 2 or 3 in all things.

Noted that a full measure (3, instead of the otherwise sufficient 2) was selected.

The other eight make 11.

And in my opinion, Mary's testimony was held in reserve for a day such as this, to take her place to complete the quorum of witnesses.

Her story, and her filling in the last number, for me, completes a number of things. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[strappinglad]

3 is the first odd prime. 8 is  equal to the one and only even prime taken to the power of the first odd prime.

3+8 = 11     11X11 = 121

                  111X111  = 12321

                 1111X1111 = 1234321   and the pattern continues.

3X8 = 24  the number of hours in a day

24 is divisible by 1,2,3,4,6,8,12, and 24 ie. very divisible

I could go on but the amazing coincidences would probably get overwhelming

[Alan]

Poor old Joe can't win.

If it had been 3+9+JS=13, he would have got it in the neck for using a number sacred to the occult. Or to Freemasonry.

If the witnesses had totaled 7, that too would have been a Biblically significant number. As would 70. Or 66 (the number of books in the Bible), or 4 (the number of Gospels in the Bible), or 666, or ...... the list goes on.

I think there were 3 and 8 because there were.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

Poor old Joe can't win.

If it had been 3+9+JS=13, he would have got it in the neck for using a number sacred to the occult. Or to Freemasonry.

If the witnesses had totaled 7, that too would have been a Biblically significant number. As would 70. Or 66 (the number of books in the Bible), or 4 (the number of Gospels in the Bible), or 666, or ...... the list goes on.

I think there were 3 and 8 because there were.

Moroni said there would be three. 

And unto three shall they be shown by the power of God; wherefore they shall know of a surety that these things are true.
 And in the mouth of three witnesses shall these things be established; and the testimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the power of God and also his word, of which the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost bear record—and all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day. (Ether 5: 3-4  see also 2 Nephi 27:12)

As for the 8:
2 Nephi 27:13
And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God,

I guess 8 is the few. I don't know if the number was on purpose or if that is all Joseph could find at the time.

 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, USU78 said:

Together they make 11, make that 12 with JSJr.

Why that number? Why that configuration?

11 is a cupbearer's, not a baker's dozen... much better outcome.

I don't count Joseph as a 12th witness because the Book of Mormon treats him differently and separately in the prophecies. In 2 Nephi 27:12 and Ether 5:4 we have the three witnesses mentioned; Joseph Smith is mentioned separately (2 Nephi 3; 6, 12, 15 as the seer producing the thing the witnesses are attesting to). Joseph was told to get these witnesses ( 2 Nephi 27:22; Ether 5:2), and also any others yet to be determined (2 Nephi 27:14).

[CA Steve]

Because he ran out of willing Whitmers and Smiths?

[hagoth7]

5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Because he ran out of willing Whitmers and Smiths?

I am confident there were more than 11 willing to provide their John/Jane Hancock.

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

I am confident there were more than 11 willing to provide their John/Jane Hancock.

It's interesting to note that one person signed all their names. I wonder if any were illiterate or if some didn't really witness anything and didn't want it to be their own signature.

[Damien the Leper]

3 and 7 are symbolic for completeness. The 8th witness snuck into the room just to throw the Joseph and the Lord off. What a jerk!!

[USU78]

5 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

3 and 7 are symbolic for completeness. The 8th witness snuck into the room just to throw the Joseph and the Lord off. What a jerk!!

Just the kind of thing the Aggie learns to expect from the Pukie.

USU "hate the avatar" 78

[Tacenda]

I listened to a podcast this morning about the question as to why we have 15 apostles verses 12. There are three on top of the twelve. So I wonder if that's why the three witnesses are separate from the eight witnesses?

[Bobbieaware]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's interesting to note that one person signed all their names. I wonder if any were illiterate or if some didn't really witness anything and didn't want it to be their own signature.

I'm curious to know if there is any evidence that indicates one or more of the eight witnesses protested and said they never intended for their names to be included as witnesses in the 'Testimony of the Eight Witnesses' statement published in the first edition of the Book of Mormon?

[Damien the Leper]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

Just the kind of thing the Aggie learns to expect from the Pukie.

USU "hate the avatar" 78

You're one to talk. The idiot from that stupid princess movie? Really!?! The octo-mom would have been a better avatar choice for you. 

I don't hate the Aggies. BYU? It is the great and spacious building of Utah. University of Utah? It is the highest level of the celestial kingdom graced and embraced by God.

[USU78]

5 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

You're one to talk. The idiot from that stupid princess movie? Really!?! The octo-mom would have been a better avatar choice for you. 

I don't hate the Aggies. BYU? It is the great and spacious building of Utah. University of Utah? It is the highest level of the celestial kingdom graced and embraced by God.

The Nephites are in Logan. The Lamanites are in SLC. The Zoramites are in Pwovo.

[Jeanne]

I am a Ute fan..so Nephite I guess I am..but as a fun thing..all my friends that are Cougars...I say....YBU??

Woops...I live in Logan..a Nepihite who likes Nephites...but keep rootin' for the Lamanites...who are the Zoramites??

Edited July 22, 2017 by Jeanne

[mfbukowski]

On 7/20/2017 at 7:59 PM, USU78 said:

Together they make 11, make that 12 with JSJr.

Why that number? Why that configuration?

I looked at the title to this thread, thought about it, also came up with 12 and thought "Well- that explains it right there!"

And here it is in the first post.

12 is obviously a highly symbolic number.  12 apostles, 12 months of the year, three times 4 = 12.  3 persons in the Godhead, four seasons, four directions, three sides to a triangle to make a "right angle" which means truth and beauty, the Pythagorean Theorem and the basis of the square with 4 sides

A cross is 1 square broken into 4 right angles, and therefore 4 triangles and therefore 3x4= 12

Total field day for that number for those into numerology!

I am sure I am missing tons.

8= 4x2, four directions multiplied by 2 forces=  opposition in all things.  Thesis antithesis synthesis = 3

I wish I was wiser, but that is what happens when you stare at a lot of squares superimposed over each other in the LA temple

Edited July 22, 2017 by mfbukowski

[USU78]

39 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am a Ute fan..so Nephite I guess I am..but as a fun thing..all my friends that are Cougars...I say....YBU??

Woops...I live in Logan..a Nepihite who likes Nephites...but keep rootin' for the Lamanites...who are the Zoramites??

The Bougars are the Zoramites

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I listened to a podcast this morning about the question as to why we have 15 apostles verses 12. There are three on top of the twelve. So I wonder if that's why the three witnesses are separate from the eight witnesses?

3 is a great number for breaking ties in a vote while 12 can be deadlocked.  So its best to have an odd number in administrative positions unless a few are half-wits.

[smac97]

On 7/20/2017 at 11:49 PM, hagoth7 said:

Joseph doesn't really count as a witness to outsiders looking in.

I think he counts.  If I make a claim to have witnessed X, and if 11 other people also stepped forward and affirmed that they too had witnessed X, then that is a total of 12.

The thing being testified of or attested to is the reality of the plates.  On this point, there were 12 witnesses.

On 7/20/2017 at 11:49 PM, hagoth7 said:

Being that his own veracity, for good or for evil, was the issue at hand. 

I don't think so.  The "issue at hand" was the reality of the plates.

On 7/20/2017 at 11:49 PM, hagoth7 said:

As to the first grouping, the law of witnesses requires 2 or 3 in all things.

Noted that a full measure (3, instead of the otherwise sufficient 2) was selected.

The other eight make 11.

And in my opinion, Mary's testimony was held in reserve for a day such as this, to take her place to complete the quorum of witnesses.

Her story, and her filling in the last number, for me, completes a number of things. 

I have also long appreciated Mary's testimony.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 7/21/2017 at 6:20 AM, Alan said:

Poor old Joe can't win.

If it had been 3+9+JS=13, he would have got it in the neck for using a number sacred to the occult. Or to Freemasonry.

If the witnesses had totaled 7, that too would have been a Biblically significant number. As would 70. Or 66 (the number of books in the Bible), or 4 (the number of Gospels in the Bible), or 666, or ...... the list goes on.

I think there were 3 and 8 because there were.

I'm not quite as interested in the number of witnesses, or of the significance of "12," as I am interested in the division of witnesses into two groups.  One group provided testimony of the plates under miraculous circumstances (angel, voice from heaven, etc.), while the other provided testimony of the plates under mundane circumstances (they just had a gathering near the Smith home in Palmyra, saw and handled/hefted the plates, but no "miraculous" elements were otherwise present).

In my mind, the two distinct groupings buttress each other.  The Three provided testimony pertaining to the miraculous nature of the plates (hence the involvement of an angel, a voice from heaven, and so on).  Some skeptics/critics have suggested that the Three were drugged or hypnotized or otherwise deluded in their experience, with the plates, a claim which is much harder to make as to the Eight and their more mundane experience.  

Meanwhile, the Eight provided testimony pertaining to the physical reality of the plates (they speak of seeing the plates in mundane circumstances, that they "handle{d}" the plates, that they "hefted" them, that they saw the engravings on them, that they have "the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship," and so on).  Some skeptics/critics have suggested that the Eight were duped by a sham set of plates fabricated by Joseph Smith or someone colluding with him, a claim which is much harder to make as to the Three and their miraculous experience.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 23, 2017 by smac97

[Pete Ahlstrom]

18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's interesting to note that one person signed all their names. I wonder if any were illiterate or if some didn't really witness anything and didn't want it to be their own signature.

I believe Martin Harris said as much, during the upheaval in Kirtland after the bank failed, that some of the 8 wouldn't sign due to seeing the plates only with spiritual eyes and not their real eyes.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I believe Martin Harris said as much, during the upheaval in Kirtland after the bank failed, that some of the 8 wouldn't sign due to seeing the plates only with spiritual eyes and not their real eyes.

CFR please.  Don't believe I have ever heard that.

[Damien the Leper]

9 hours ago, USU78 said:

The Nephites are in Logan. The Lamanites are in SLC. The Zoramites are in Pwovo.

No. Seed of Abraham is in SLC. Provo is the equivalent of Babylon. Logan is just one of those places I'm not visiting...like Texas or San Francisco.