Golden Plates

[Jim Stiles]

Their quoted estimates for the weight (40 - 50 lbs) of the plates do not agree with the assertion that they were made out of either gold or tumbaga, if their quoted estimates for the dimensions were correct (6 inches x 8 inches x 6 inches).

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n09.htm

Quote

These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters and bound together in a volume, as the leaves of a book with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed. The characters on the unsealed part were small, and beautifully engraved. The whole book exhibited many marks of antiquity in its construction and much skill in the art of engraving. With the records was found a curious instrument which the ancients called "Urim and Thummim," which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tiffany%27s_Monthly/Volume_5/Number_4/Mormonism--No._II

Quote

These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose, in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdrey, myself, Joseph Smith, jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them. Before the Lord showed the plates to me, Joseph wished me to see them. But I refused, unless the Lord should do it. At one time, before the Lord showed them to me, Joseph said I should see them. I asked him, why he would break the commands of the Lord! He said, you have done so much I am afraid you will not believe unless you see them. I replied, 'Joseph, I know all about it. The Lord has showed to me ten times more about it than you know.' "—Here we inquired of Mr. Harris—How did the Lord show you these things! He replied, "I am forbidden to say anything how the Lord showed them to me, except that by the power of God I have seen them." Mr. Harris continues: "I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds".

 

[Jim Stiles]

Either those estimates were off or the plates were not made out of gold or tumbaga.  Or the story was a fanciful tale to begin with.

[Russell C McGregor]

Just now, Jim Stiles said:

Their quoted estimates for the weight (40 - 50 lbs) of the plates do not agree with the assertion that they were made out of either gold or tumbaga, if their quoted estimates for the dimensions were correct (6 inches x 8 inches x 6 inches).

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n09.htm

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tiffany%27s_Monthly/Volume_5/Number_4/Mormonism--No._II

 

But that's just an assertion, Jim. Have you got any actual evidence to back it up?

Because nobody is obligated to do your homework for you.

 

[Vance]

16 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

Either those estimates were off or the plates were not made out of gold or tumbaga.  Or the story was a fanciful tale to begin with.

So where is the claim that they were "made out of gold"?

Quote

These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin.

Oh, I get what you are assuming.  "appearance of gold" = gold or tumbaga.

No other possibilities?  It couldn't be some other alloy?

[Jim Stiles]

12 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

But that's just an assertion, Jim. Have you got any actual evidence to back it up?

Because nobody is obligated to do your homework for you.

 

Volume = 7 in * 8 in * 6 in / (12 in/ft)³ = 0.1944444 ft³

Weight = 0.1944444 ft³ * 19.30 g/cm³ * 62.4 (lbs/ft³)/(g/cm³) = 234.2 lbs

The engravings removed some of the weight.  Granular materials have a solids fraction of about 60%.  I suspect engraved plates would have a solids fraction of at least 80%.

Final Weight = 234.2 lbs * 80% / 100% = 187.4 lbs

This points to a weight estimate similar to the infamous McKeever estimate.

 

[cdowis]

del

Edited April 12, 2016 by cdowis

[Jim Stiles]

What would an alloy of gold, zinc, and antimony look like?  What would the alloy's specific gravity be?

[Jim Stiles]

25 minutes ago, Vance said:

So where is the claim that they were "made out of gold"?

Oh, I get what you are assuming.  "appearance of gold" = gold or tumbaga.

No other possibilities?  It couldn't be some other alloy?

Maybe, I have not heard any other explanations for the composition of the plates.  Antimony forms an alloy with zinc and copper, but not gold.

[Jim Stiles]

They were purportedly in a stone box that was buried in the ground.  As far as the acidity goes, it would be the same.

[Okrahomer]

One assumption you seem to be making is that the plates were perfectly flat.  Based on the eye witness accounts, that in fact seems not to have been the case.  The implication is that your calculations need to account for the resultant air space between plates.

"The discrepancy can be partly accounted for by the fact that the leaves must have been handcrafted, presumably by hammering, and irregularities in flatness would have left air space between the plates. This led Putnam to surmise that the entire set of plates would have weighed probably less than 50 percent of the weight of a solid block of the metal."  http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Gold_plates

[Bobbieaware]

18 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

Maybe, I have not heard any other explanations for the composition of the plates.  Antimony forms an alloy with zinc and copper, but not gold.

Most LDS metallurgists believe the Book of Mormon's plates were made of the well-known gold alloy known as tumbaga (look it up). In 1966, LDS metallurgist Read H Putnam wrote the following.:

"We must conclude that ancient American smiths had sufficient knowledge and skill to make a set of plates using the alloy that the Spaniards called tumbaga.  The plates of the Book of Mormon, we allege, were of this alloy and were probably of between 8- and 12-carat gold.  They thus appear to have weighed between 53 and 86 pounds.  We further allege that the plates were manufactured by hammering the metal to a thickness of .02 of an inch with a 23-carat gilded surface of .0006 of an inch, resulting in a hardness of 30 Brinells to the engravers tool, while the center of the plate maintained a Brinell of 80 or above.

The plates themselves would have presented a solid gold surface to the eye, yet they would have weighed as little as half as much as pure gold."

[Jim Stiles]

2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Most LDS metallurgists believe the Book of Mormon's plates were made of the well-known gold alloy known as tumbaga (look it up). In 1966, LDS metallurgist Read H Putnam wrote the following.:

"We must conclude that ancient American smiths had sufficient knowledge and skill to make a set of plates using the alloy that the Spaniards called tumbaga.  The plates of the Book of Mormon, we allege, were of this alloy and were probably of between 8- and 12-carat gold.  They thus appear to have weighed between 53 and 86 pounds.  We further allege that the plates were manufactured by hammering the metal to a thickness of .02 of an inch with a 23-carat gilded surface of .0006 of an inch, resulting in a hardness of 30 Brinells to the engravers tool, while the center of the plate maintained a Brinell of 80 or above.

The plates themselves would have presented a solid gold surface to the eye, yet they would have weighed as little as half as much as pure gold."

I mentioned tumbaga previously.

I believe that a 12 carat gold tumbaga would dissolve in an acidic environment due to the electrolysis reaction that would be set up.  But a 23 carat surface could isolate the rest of the tumbaga from the environment.  Has anyone tried to make a set of plates in this manner using tools that Moroni would have access to?

[Bobbieaware]

23 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

I mentioned tumbaga previously.

I believe that a 12 carat gold tumbaga would dissolve in an acidic environment due to the electrolysis reaction that would be set up.  But a 23 carat surface could isolate the rest of the tumbaga from the environment.  Has anyone tried to make a set of plates in this manner using tools that Moroni would have access to?

The Lord made a provision to assure that the plates would remain uncorrupted and bright. Speaking of the plates of brass and the plates of the Book of Mormon, the Prophet Alma prophesied the following:

4 Behold, it has been prophesied by our fathers, that they should be kept and handed down from one generation to another, and be kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord until they should go forth unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, that they shall know of the mysteries contained thereon.

5 And now behold, if they are kept they must retain their brightness; yea, and they will retain their brightness; yea, and also shall all the plates which do contain that which is holy writ. (Alma 37)

Edited April 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Okrahomer]

28 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

I mentioned tumbaga previously.

I believe that a 12 carat gold tumbaga would dissolve in an acidic environment due to the electrolysis reaction that would be set up.  But a 23 carat surface could isolate the rest of the tumbaga from the environment.  Has anyone tried to make a set of plates in this manner using tools that Moroni would have access to?

I don't know about modern examples, but this museum displays several ancient tumbaga artifacts from South and Central America that seem to have survived the centuries quite well.  I'm not aware of anyone attempting to duplicate the plates though.  It seems like it would be a very expensive experiment.

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

  As far as the acidity goes, it would be the same.

CFR, please, or withdraw your comment.  

 They were sealed in a stone box,  but you claim that acidity of the soil somehow seeps into the stone box.  I think this is nonsense, but let's see your credible, scientific source

NOTE   It is evident that the Lord would preserve the integrity of the plates  

Alma 37 [4] Behold, it has been prophesied by our fathers, that they should be kept and handed down from one generation to another, and be kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord until they should go forth unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, that they shall know of the mysteries contained thereon.  [5] And now behold, if they are kept they must retain their brightness; yea, and they will retain their brightness; yea, and also shall all the plates which do contain that which is holy writ.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Either those estimates were off or the plates were not made out of gold or tumbaga.  Or the story was a fanciful tale to begin with.

 

3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Their quoted estimates for the weight (40 - 50 lbs) of the plates do not agree with the assertion that they were made out of either gold or tumbaga, if their quoted estimates for the dimensions were correct (6 inches x 8 inches x 6 inches).

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n09.htm

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tiffany%27s_Monthly/Volume_5/Number_4/Mormonism--No._II 

Perhaps, Jim, you would care to discuss why you find some sort of discrepancy on the weight and composition.  Scholars and a professional blacksmith have considered the issues objectively and have come to the opposite conclusion from you.  See my summary, “The ‘Golden’ Plates,” FARMS Update, October 1984, reprinted in John W. Welch, ed., Reexploring the Book of Mormon: The F.A.R.M.S. Updates (Provo: FARMS/SLC: Deseret Book, 1992), 275-278.  Online at http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=847 .

[HappyJackWagon]

There sure is a lot of bickering over plates that were totally unnecessary to the "translation" of the Book of Mormon.

Apparently the Nephites were very skilled at creating alloys which God promised would never lose their shine. We have multiple passages in the BoM describing the difficulty of engraving the plates. We then have so many stories about the struggles Joseph had obtaining the plates and then hiding them, running through the woods at night while defending the plates against would-be thieves.

But in the end, the plates were inconsequential to the translation. We know this because Joseph didn't refer to them during the "translation". Instead of studying these miraculous plates during the "translation" he stared at a rock in a hat. Now, if God wants to perform a miracle in that way, He is certainly powerful enough to inspire Joseph to see words on a rock, but it sure doesn't explain why God went through the effort of performing the many miracles to bring forth physical plates that were totally unnecessary to the BoM record we now have.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Their quoted estimates for the weight (40 - 50 lbs) of the plates do not agree with the assertion that they were made out of either gold or tumbaga, if their quoted estimates for the dimensions were correct (6 inches x 8 inches x 6 inches).

https://www.ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-news/news/2015/11/a-new-form-of-real-gold-almost-as-light-as-air.html?comments=all

 

[Gray]

To say this discussion of physical plates misses the point of scripture altogether would be a massive understatement. 

[longview]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

- - - but it sure doesn't explain why God went through the effort of performing the many miracles to bring forth physical plates that were totally unnecessary to the BoM record we now have.

What if the instrument (Seer Stone) had a communication link with the Gold Plates?  More specifically, the spirit intelligence(s) embedded within the Seer Stone had access to the Gold Plate composites?   Too far fetched?

[HappyJackWagon]

13 minutes ago, longview said:

What if the instrument (Seer Stone) had a communication link with the Gold Plates?  More specifically, the spirit intelligence(s) embedded within the Seer Stone had access to the Gold Plate composites?   Too far fetched?

You mean like Bluetooth?

Seems like a very unnecessary level of additional technology. I mean, if God had the plates created he could have just helped Joseph read the plates. Why a stone or additional Bluetooth communication links?

 

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

To say this discussion of physical plates misses the point of scripture altogether would be a massive understatement. 

When I read your posts, I often hear John Lennon's "Strawberry Fields Forever" playing in the background...

"Let me take you down cause I'm going to Stawberry Fields, NOTHING IS REAL and nothing to get hung about. Stawberry Fields forever."

Other times I hear "Row Your Boat."

Row, row row your boat gently down the steam. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, LIFE IS BUT A DREAM."

I would imagine that at very most,only one-hundredth of one percent of believing Latter-day Saints believe the angel Moroni and the Gold plates never actually existed.

Have you ever taken a serious look at Christian Science? If not, you should look into it. What you seem to espouse sounds a lot like a hybrid of Mormonism and Christian-Science. The Christian Scientists believe God (pure Mind) is the only thing that really exists, while everything else is just an illusion. For example, in Christian Science the key to being healed of a "disease" is to come to realize in God"s perfect universe there actually is no such thing as disease.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

There sure is a lot of bickering over plates that were totally unnecessary to the "translation" of the Book of Mormon.

Apparently the Nephites were very skilled at creating alloys which God promised would never lose their shine. We have multiple passages in the BoM describing the difficulty of engraving the plates. We then have so many stories about the struggles Joseph had obtaining the plates and then hiding them, running through the woods at night while defending the plates against would-be thieves.

But in the end, the plates were inconsequential to the translation. We know this because Joseph didn't refer to them during the "translation". Instead of studying these miraculous plates during the "translation" he stared at a rock in a hat. Now, if God wants to perform a miracle in that way, He is certainly powerful enough to inspire Joseph to see words on a rock, but it sure doesn't explain why God went through the effort of performing the many miracles to bring forth physical plates that were totally unnecessary to the BoM record we now have.

I don't know about that. It seems like there could be some very reasonable reasons for the plates. 

One could be the need for witnesses. Another could be to strengthen faith (like when Jesus used spit and dirt to heal the blind man) and some could have been for actual translation (did Cowdrey use the rock in the hat?). There's also the blessings that could have come to those who were physically keeping the records.

[Wanderer7]

12 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

I mentioned tumbaga previously.

I believe that a 12 carat gold tumbaga would dissolve in an acidic environment due to the electrolysis reaction that would be set up.  But a 23 carat surface could isolate the rest of the tumbaga from the environment.  Has anyone tried to make a set of plates in this manner using tools that Moroni would have access to?

What in the world are you talking about? Throwing out big words like electrolysis does not a scientist make.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Wanderer7
Grammar

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

When I read your posts, I often hear John Lennon's "Strawberry Fields Forever" playing in the background...

"Let me take you down cause I'm going to Stawberry Fields, NOTHING IS REAL and nothing to get hung about. Stawberry Fields forever."

Other times I hear "Row Your Boat."

Row, row row your boat gently down the steam. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, LIFE IS BUT A DREAM."

I would imagine that at very most,only one-hundredth of one percent of believing Latter-day Saints believe the angel Moroni and the Gold plates never actually existed.

Have you ever taken a serious look at Christian Science? If not, you should look into it. What you seem to espouse sounds a lot like a hybrid of Mormonismand Christian-Science. The Christian Scientists believe God (pure Mind) is the only thing that really exists, while everything else is just an illusion. For example, in Christian Science the key to being healed of a "disease" is to come to realize in God"s perfect universe there actually is no such thing as disease.

Maybe you can explain the deeper spiritual lesson we can learn based on whether the plates were made of gold, tumbaga, tin, or imagination? 

Regarding my views on God, I don't think everything is just an illusion. Yes, I believe God is the only thing that is exists, but that doesn't mean the universe is illusory. On the contrary, the Universe is identical with Deity.