Golden Plates

[Gray]

15 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

With all due deference to you as a son of God, what is it about Mormonism that you find worthwhile enough to want to be identified with it? 

First of all, thank you for your kind approach here. 

I think all religious traditions, broadly speaking, are worthwhile. Mormonism happens to be mine. I think there are a lot of great things about Mormonism. I don't agree with a lot of things that you find in the manuals, but I doubt I would agree with everything taught in any other church either.

I love the ideal we're taught of loving and serving your fellow man. I love the practical approach to life, rolling up your sleeves and getting it done. Doing the work yourself. And I admire so many members of my own ward. They're genuine and good people. 

 

[Bobbieaware]

18 minutes ago, Gray said:

First of all, thank you for your kind approach here. 

I think all religious traditions, broadly speaking, are worthwhile. Mormonism happens to be mine. I think there are a lot of great things about Mormonism. I don't agree with a lot of things that you find in the manuals, but I doubt I would agree with everything taught in any other church either.

I love the ideal we're taught of loving and serving your fellow man. I love the practical approach to life, rolling up your sleeves and getting it done. Doing the work yourself. And I admire so many members of my own ward. They're genuine and good people. 

 

So aside from the practical social and service-oriented aspects of the Church, there is nothing theological nor soteriological with which you agree? 

By the way, I realize I failed to explain something pertaining to what you call "the problem of evil" that might finally give you some satisfaction. This thread isn't the place for posting it, so let me know where you would like me to post my explanation?

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

So aside from the practical social and service-oriented aspects of the Church, there is nothing theological nor soteriological with which you agree? 

By the way, I realize I failed to explain something pertaining to what you call "the problem of evil" that might finally give you some satisfaction. This thread isn't the place for posting it, so let me know where you would like me to post my explanation?

I find value in some of the spiritual practices as well, even if they might mean something a little different to me. Prayer, sacrament, etc. I find stories about Jesus to be inspiring and full of meaning, although again I interpret the story of the atonement differently than most. A lot of it is framework upon which I use a different interpretive lens. 

I don't know, in the end, Jesus gave us the two great commandments. Isn't everything else window dressing?

Re: problem of evil, if you post it in the "Problem of Evil" thread, I'm happy to read your thoughts. Thanks!

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The physical nature of the plates is supposedly totally unimportant and irrelevant to the Book of Mormon's status as holy scripture, yet the all-wise God appears to have succumbed to the temptation to think that a general awareness of the plate"s physical reality was important enough to have 12 witnesses (the witness of Joseph Smith makes twelve) testify that that the plates...

"... have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken." (Testimony of the Eight Witnesses)

As you can see, it was by God's own initiative that the reality of the physical existence of plates was made was made an important issue -- hence the debate on this thread concerning the physical reality of the plates.

I wonder if you realize that by agreeing with Gray you are encouraging him to continue to believe that "God is not a person," that his immaterial God never, ever intervenes in any way in the affairs of men (hence there was no actual visitation by the resurrected angel Moroni to the prophet Joseph Smith) and that there is no such thing as divine miracles (for instance, the lost language inscribed on the Book of Mormon plates was not actually translated by the gift and power of God because there were no physical Book of Mormon plates to translate). You see, Gray has taken the esoteric and arcane philosophical approach to Mormonism to unwarranted conclusions (I hope you will agree they are unwarranted conclusions) to the point of believing that indispensable and critically important components of the Restored Gospel are not necessary nor real.

Where does one draw the line when the philosophical approach to the Restored Gospel begins to make it seem that historicity is totally irrelevant and unimportant? Why did God call for witnesses to the reality of the Book of Mormon plates if their reality is irrelevant and unimportant?

I agreed with the post, not with.everything Gray has ever done, said, or thought in his entire life. Perhaps that is an odd approach hereabouts nowadays?  Bye.

Edited April 13, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I agreed with the post, not with.everything Gray has ever done, said, or thought in his entire life. Perhaps that is an odd approach hereabouts nowadays?  Bye.

I'd be worried about you if you agreed with everything I've said or done!

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, why me said:

They were looked at by 8 witnesses.

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/appendix-5-testimony-of-eight-witness

5 hours ago, why me said:

They were looked at by 8 witnesses.

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/appendix-5-testimony-of-eight-witnesses-late-june-1829

I think that this is much more important than just speculating about the color and weight of the plates.

 

es-late-june-1829

I think that this is much more important than just speculating about the color and weight of the plates.

 

 Well, the witnesses were told they had to have faith before seeing them in D&C 17.  And later a couple of the witnesses said they saw them with spiritual eyes.  But what bothers me is why people like Emma or his mother and sisters weren't allowed to see them.  And Martin Harris the only non family member said he only saw them with his spiritual eyes.

[thesometimesaint]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 Well, the witnesses were told they had to have faith before seeing them in D&C 17.  And later a couple of the witnesses said they saw them with spiritual eyes.  But what bothers me is why people like Emma or his mother and sisters weren't allowed to see them.  And Martin Harris the only non family member said he only saw them with his spiritual eyes.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng

Culturally women of the 1820's America were in a far different place than 21st Century America. Their testimony was irrelevant.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng

Culturally women of the 1820's America were in a far different place than 21st Century America. Their testimony was irrelevant.

Ok, another question why didn't they sign in their own handwriting?  Someone signed for them, would that be a real witness' testimony or by law, acceptable?

[thesometimesaint]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Ok, another question why didn't they sign in their own handwriting?  Someone signed for them, would that be a real witness' testimony or by law, acceptable?

Typesetting in the early 19th Century wasn't the same as the 21st Century autosign.

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Typesetting in the early 19th Century wasn't the same as the 21st Century autosign.

I guess that makes some sense.

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess that makes some sense.

Not really 

They could have definitely each signed at least the original (maybe they did?).  Where is the original, does anyone know or have a link to see it?

ETA:

Here's this:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/Signatures_on_their_testimonies

This is all interesting to read, but it seems Oliver Cowdery signed all of their names:

Quote

"The witnesses did Dav not sign the original manuscript though [they] were present and ordered Oliver Cowdry to sign for them.

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 Well, the witnesses were told they had to have faith before seeing them in D&C 17.  And later a couple of the witnesses said they saw them with spiritual eyes.  

I've wondered why Joseph just couldn't show them the plates since he had them in his possession (why did an angel have to appear holding them?).  And, why did they have to pray in order to see them (they had already been chosen by Joseph as witnesses)?  Maybe it was possibly a test of their faith.

This is an interesting perspective:

Quote

 

Mormon historian Marvin Hill concedes that the “evidence is extremely contradictory in this area, but there is a possibility that the three witnesses saw the plates in vision only.”²⁰

In a revelation recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 17:2, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris were told that it was by faith they would obtain a view of the plates. This event did not take place in the room where Smith had allegedly been translating the plates, but out in the woods. It was after retiring to the woods that Smith and the three men tried “to obtain, by fervent and humble prayer,” the fulfillment of that revelation. One might ask why they needed prayer to see a tangible, physical object. When praying did not result in a “manifestation of divine favor,” Martin Harris excused himself, thinking he was the hindrance. Once he left, the remaining three men prayed again and an angel stood before them holding the plates. Smith then went to find Harris who was a “considerable distance” away. The two men prayed and the “same vision” was opened to their view.²¹ Eight more men insisted they, too, “saw” the plates, but again the evidence suggests that they saw them with spiritual eyes or in “vision.”

 

(I'd post a link, but I'm not sure if there is other content on this page that I should not link to...I'll check it out.)

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

First of all, thank you for your kind approach here. 

I think all religious traditions, broadly speaking, are worthwhile. Mormonism happens to be mine. I think there are a lot of great things about Mormonism. I don't agree with a lot of things that you find in the manuals, but I doubt I would agree with everything taught in any other church either.

I love the ideal we're taught of loving and serving your fellow man. I love the practical approach to life, rolling up your sleeves and getting it done. Doing the work yourself. And I admire so many members of my own ward. They're genuine and good people. 

 

I know I am treading on dangerous ground by giving you a rep point, but I am feeling exceptionally brave today.  

Must have been the Wheaties.

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Agreed

One more absurd thread which totally misses the point.

No I'm afraid you miss the point. It's a welcome break from the usual LGBT, Anti-Mormon ,Bash the Apostles, politically correct threads. I like this thread and all the archaeology threads. as well as the evolution threads or anything to do the with the cosmos.

[Gray]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I know I am treading on dangerous ground by giving you a rep point, but I am feeling exceptionally brave today.  

Must have been the Wheaties.

[thesometimesaint]

ALarson;

Thought you might like this. SEE http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~archibald/Martin_Harris_Testimony.html

[mfbukowski]

On 4/12/2016 at 6:39 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

There sure is a lot of bickering over plates that were totally unnecessary to the "translation" of the Book of Mormon.

Apparently the Nephites were very skilled at creating alloys which God promised would never lose their shine. We have multiple passages in the BoM describing the difficulty of engraving the plates. We then have so many stories about the struggles Joseph had obtaining the plates and then hiding them, running through the woods at night while defending the plates against would-be thieves.

But in the end, the plates were inconsequential to the translation. We know this because Joseph didn't refer to them during the "translation". Instead of studying these miraculous plates during the "translation" he stared at a rock in a hat. Now, if God wants to perform a miracle in that way, He is certainly powerful enough to inspire Joseph to see words on a rock, but it sure doesn't explain why God went through the effort of performing the many miracles to bring forth physical plates that were totally unnecessary to the BoM record we now have.

Perhaps he knew that we need mysteries in order to believe.  The belief may be that if religious knowledge is obtained "naturally" it cannot be "supernatural", so we need texts with mysterious ancient origins in order to believe.  And that of course includes the Bible.  Think about it.

All "scriptures" of mankind are of "supernatural" and mysterious and of ancient Origin. Moses and the 10 commandments- the commandments are perfect rules for a happy civilization, but we need to believe that God wrote them with his finger on stone plates which were, of course destroyed, with no evidence remaining.

I found that passage in Bukowski 147:18.

Edited April 13, 2016 by mfbukowski

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

ALarson;

Thought you might like this. SEE http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~archibald/Martin_Harris_Testimony.html

Thank you (I have read that but it's been awhile, so it's interesting to read again).  It confirms what was stated in my quote above (that he saw the plates in a vision).

I wonder if the stone box was ever found?  

Quote

 

[Martin Harris quote] - “I will tell you of the most wonderful thing that happened, after Joseph received the plates.  Three of us, myself and two more, took some tools and went to the hill to dig for more plates of gold or something and indeed we found a stone box.  We got quite excited and dug around it very carefully and just when we were ready to lift it up out of the hole, some unseen power slid it back into the hill.  We stood and looked at it and one of us tried to drive a crowbar through the lid to hold it, but the crowbar glanced off and the corner of the lid was chipped off.

Sometime that box will be found and you will find one corner of the lid broken and you will know that I have spoken the truth.  Brother’s just as sure as you are standing here and see me, just so sure did we see the Angel with the golden plates in his hand.  He showed them to me and I promised I would bear witness of this truth both here and hereafter.”

 

 

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps we need a thread on the geology of the kind of stone upon which God could write the commandments with his finger, and yet, sheered off, be thin enough and light enough for and old man like Moses to carry. But rock that thin would be very fragile.

Like if it was sandstone, it would crumble to bits.

Interesting geology.

Or perhaps God made them pocket sized, so he could just slip them into his cloak somewhere.

Yes, we definitely need a thread like that.

Or better yet, I could just reject the bible entirely because obviously that story is not possible.  We won't mention the talking donkeys and people coming back from the dead and holding their arms up to stop the sun.

I wonder what the folks on the other side of the world did when the sun stopped moving?  I guess they got to sleep in.

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

No I'm afraid you miss the point. It's a welcome break from the usual LGBT, Anti-Mormon ,Bash the Apostles, politically correct threads. I like this thread and all the archaeology threads. as well as the evolution threads or anything to do the with the cosmos.

oh ok, I get it now.

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

ALarson;

Thought you might like this. SEE http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~archibald/Martin_Harris_Testimony.html

If I were an apologist I might say this is a second hand witness and doesn't count, of course that would only be in the case of non faithful information.

[HappyJackWagon]

Quote

All "scriptures" of mankind are of "supernatural" and mysterious and of ancient Origin. Moses and the 10 commandments- the commandments are perfect rules for a happy civilization, but we need to believe that God wrote them with his finger on stone plates which were, of course destroyed, with no evidence remaining.

I think we can believe that the 10 commandments are great rules for a happy civilization without believing that God wrote them with his finger on stone tablets.

IOW- there is value in scripture even if we don't accept the claimed "supernatural" origins of the scripture.

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I agreed with the post, not with.everything Gray has ever done, said, or thought in his entire life. Perhaps that is an odd approach hereabouts nowadays?  Bye.

If you're willing, just for the fun of it, let's pretend I'm Elder David O Bednar. So now in the simplest and most succinct way possible, please explain to me (David O Bednar) why it's unimportant whether or not Moroni and the Book of Mormon plates actually exist?

I ask the above question in humility and with the acknowledgement you are a great thinker who's posts often greatly impress me. If your point is that no physical evidence at all is needed for one to come to know the Book of Mormon is divinely authentic, then I agree with you (and Moroni) 100%. But if you're saying that in the end it doesn't at all matter if Moroni and the plates don't actually exist, and that Joseph Smith and the other eleven witnesses lied or were deceived, that's the proposition I would really appreciate having explained.

[why me]

The witnesses were asked over and over again about their experience. No witness ever retracted their experience. Also, the witnesses saw their testimony in the book. It is obvious that they gave their permission for it to be there. Mary Whitmer also saw the plates. She was shown the plates and never denied her spiritual experience also. Emma saw them under a thin cloth. At any moment she could have snuck a peek. But it seems she never did. Why not? She was also running around trying to hide them.

Here is an interesting tidbit: the 12 apostles who saw the risen christ never denied their experience either. Did they see the risen christ with temporal eyes or spiritual eyes?

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Perhaps he knew that we need mysteries in order to believe.  The belief may be that if religious knowledge is obtained "naturally" it cannot be "supernatural", so we need texts with mysterious ancient origins in order to believe.  And that of course includes the Bible.  Think about it.

All "scriptures" of mankind are of "supernatural" and mysterious and of ancient Origin. Moses and the 10 commandments- the commandments are perfect rules for a happy civilization, but we need to believe that God wrote them with his finger on stone plates which were, of course destroyed, with no evidence remaining.

I found that passage in Bukowski 147:18.

Gave me a good chuckle. I tried to think of some measured, intelligent response, but found my scriptures devoid of such today

It seems to me what happened is that JS lost the interpreters with the Book of Lehi incident. The Urim and Thummim allowed direct translation of the plates. The Urim and Thummim actually allowed JS to see many things - not just interpret. With the loss caused by his error and hardness toward the Lord, he lost that privilege. The Lord allowed his stone to act as an interpreter, but that is all - and it seems it was more easily seen in the dark. Thus, when he had finished with the translation, he felt he no longer needed the stone and gave it to Oliver Cowdery, while the Urim and Thummim would surely still have been useful for us. WIth Urim and Thummim I think JS would have detected right away that the Kinderhook plates were fraudulent, rather than trying to use his Egyptian alphabet to try to decipher the plates and thereby misreading a few characters, which appears to me what he did. I believe he later realized the Kinderhook plates were not what he thought, and thus no written translation was ever forthcoming.

Thus, it seems the golden plates of Mormon were intended to be translated by use of the Urim and Thummim, which was apparently a fairly easy process. Joseph made it harder for himself by his disregard for the Lord, and was forced to use the slower method since it seems the Lord no longer trusted him with the Urim and Thummim because of his refusal to follow instructions.