My (Ex) Stake President is a Woman

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I fail to understand why making people feel better about something wrong is seen as a good thing.

what?  what do you propose then? aren't we supposed to see others and God sees them? I doubt God sees them as wrong, if he did why is he allowing her to have those feelings or he created those feelings for her? 

[Kenngo1969]

7 minutes ago, SteveO said:

... If I recall, John Hopkins stopped doing sex reassignment surgeries because the suicide rate for recovering patients was through the roof.  It wasn't helping them, and not targeting the real problem--that of mental illness

True.  I don't understand why gender dysphoria is considered simply another equally-valid way of perceiving and of relating to the world, while, e.g., clinical depression or schizophrenia is not.  I don't think that anyone with an illness (whatever it is) is their illness, but if I think I'm One-Eyed, One-Horned, Flyin' Purple People Eater Who's Pigeon-Toed and Undergrowed, I don't think the best solution to that challenge is to give me treatment which stunts my growth or hunches me over, makes me grow a horn, gouges out an eye, and makes me sprout wings.

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said:

True.  I don't understand why gender dysphoria is considered simply another equally-valid way of perceiving and of relating to the world, while, e.g., clinical depression or schizophrenia is not.  I don't think that anyone with an illness (whatever it is) is their illness, but if I think I'm One-Eyed, One-Horned, Flyin' Purple People Eater Who's Pigeon-Toed and Undergrowed, I don't think the best solution to that challenge is to give me treatment which stunts my growth or hunches me over, makes me grow a horn, gouges out an eye, and makes me sprout wings.

seems like they are danged in their birth body and then danged in their changed body, if I were like that I would have more than a few questions for God Granted too, in Canada IIRC hardly anyone with this situation is granted a change, they have to go through therapy and all kinds of things and I think like less than 5 doctors even do the surgery and it's expensive

[SteveO]

14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

would exing them solve the problem or make them feel even worse?

I think treating them would make them feel better

[Kenngo1969]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what?  what do you propose then? aren't we supposed to see others and God sees them? I doubt God sees them as wrong, if he did why is he allowing her to have those feelings or he created those feelings for her? 

God had nothing to do with the "creation" of gender dysphoria, any more than He had to do with the "creation" of Cerebral Palsy.  Each of these maladies/anomalies are simply two of life's innumerable vicissitudes.  They're part of "opposition in all things" (2 Nephi 2:11) and of being proven "herewith, to see if [we] will do all things whatsoever the Lord [our] God shall command [us]" (Abraham 3:22-25).

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what?  what do you propose then? aren't we supposed to see others and God sees them? I doubt God sees them as wrong, if he did why is he allowing her to have those feelings or he created those feelings for her? 

Are you implying that every feeling we have was implanted in us by God? 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

The well need no physician, and I pray this sick soul gets the help he desperately needs. His going public in this manner broadcasts that he prolly won't, alas.

I'm reminded of Scott's recent thread about the supposed rudeness of LDS towards LGBT individuals.

I knew I could count on USU78 to represent that kind of rudeness again.

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

God had nothing to do with the "creation" of gender dysphoria, any more than He had to do with the "creation" of Cerebral Palsy.  Each of these maladies/anomalies are simply two of life's innumerable vicissitudes.  They're part of "opposition in all things" (2 Nephi 2:11) and of being proven "herewith, to see if [we] will do all things whatsoever the Lord [our] God shall command [us]" (Abraham 3:22-25).

which leads to a whole host of other questions, I was always taught our trials are individualized and  God wants you to go through something to get something, I think Pres. Packer gave a talk about it in the '70's. So now does God just allow whatever random thing happens to us in a fallen world and he allows things and if any "good" comes from something then great but if not then whatever, they weren't morally strong or didn't do XYZ enough or what?

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Are you implying that every feeling we have was implanted in us by God? 

the soil is from God, whatever is planted comes from God, Satan or just the way it is

[Kenngo1969]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

seems like they are danged in their birth body and then danged in their changed body ... Granted too, in Canada IIRC hardly anyone with this situation is granted a change, they have to go through therapy and all kinds of things and I think like less than 5 doctors even do the surgery and it's expensive.

Why?  Apparently, you ... alone among mortals, apparently ... already are intimately acquainted with what it means, how it feels, and so on, to be resurrected.  Do tell! You've been holding out on us!  If, by "changed body," you're talking about reassignment surgery, then yes, I think that anyone should think twice, or thrice, or even more, about opting for such a drastic "solution."  You yourself admit that Canadian surgeons are more cautious ... and, as a general rule, very probably are much wiser than their U.S. brethren and sisters of the white coat and scrub suit set.  

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

... if I were like that I would have more than a few questions for God .

And I'm sure that God will be ready, willing, and able to answer them eventually (Ay, there's the rub! )  We mere mortals have such problems with that "eventually" part, and we're all-too-willing, in our hubris to conclude that the best way to respond to this temporary, mortal challenge ... formidable though it is ... is to second-guess God's handiwork (even if it is imperfect in a mortal sense) and to conclude that we know so much better than He.

You know what?  If someone said, "Hey, Ken!  Congratulations!  Neurosurgeons have perfected a procedure that will cure your Cerebral Palsy ... not just alleviate the symptoms, not just improve your function, but out-and-out cure you" ... I'd have to do some really serious thinking: It's not as though such a thing would come without risk, and even if the risk were minimal and the reward would get me oh-so-much closer to that resurrected state, I've been living in this body for almost 50 years, and I'm not naive enough to believe that such a sudden change wouldn't come without its own set of serious, perhaps-formidable challenges.  (Think Flowers for Algernon) ...

 

[Danzo]

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm reminded of Scott's recent thread about the supposed rudeness of LDS towards LGBT individuals.

I knew I could count on USU78 to represent that kind of rudeness again.

Don't you just love it when the topic of a thread becomes the posters.  I makes the discussion so much more meaningful.  

I guess it goes to show that who is posting may be more important than what is being posted.

[Duncan]

One thing to come out this is that God knew this person had those struggles and still called him as a Stake President and kept him on for 8 years, maybe there is hope for us!

[HappyJackWagon]

Kenngo,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I'm in the middle of listening to the story and I feel nothing but love and empathy for this woman. I can't even begin to understand the inner turmoil she has dealt with her entire life. It makes me very sad that she was silent her entire life because she knew she couldn't share with loved ones, church leaders, or even therapists because of the judgment she would receive. The church has definitely lived up to her worst fears of judgment and excommunication. As Duncan said, it's hard to see the value in excommunicating someone for something like this.

I don't want to offend anyone but I want to ask a question in the only way I know how. My understanding of this topic is very limited so if I'm insensitive I apologize. I see a person like this as likely falling into 1 of 3 possible situations (but I'm probably missing some).

1- The individual gets reassignment surgery for kicks or to rebel

2- The individual experiences gender dysphoria as a mental illness

3- The individual experiences gender dysphoria because they correctly recognize that their biological gender doesn't match their spiritual gender

 

1- So if this former SP experienced GD and had reassignment surgery as some kind of rebellion or for kicks, then I can understand why the church might disassociate from her for refusing to follow church policies. While I recognize the church's authority to maintain boundaries within the organization I don't believe the excommunication would void covenants and ordinances, but that's another topic. This option seems unlikely as it would be very extreme and I believe individuals seeking reassignment surgery go through extensive psychological tests first.

2- If the former SP has a mental illness, it seems unusual, and quite heartless to excommunicate her. I once had a woman in my ward suffering from severe mental illness. She did and said things that were very inappropriate. The SP asked me to convene a DC for her and to consider excommunication. I asked him what good excommunicating a mentally ill person would do. Neither he nor I could think of a good reason so that idea was scrapped and no DC was held.

3- If the individual truly has a spirit and a body in which the gender doesn't match, it seems heartless to excommunicate. What is the point of punishing further for something that has already caused significant struggle. The church should be there to lift and support, not wash its hands of a person it deems is unworthy or embarrassing.

 

I'm just trying to figure this all out. I probably never will, but recognizing that tells me that I have no business judging someone who is experiencing a significant struggle like gender dysphoria. These individuals deserve compassion and kindness, not harshness and judgment.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Don't you just love it when the topic of a thread becomes the posters.  I makes the discussion so much more meaningful.  

I guess it goes to show that who is posting may be more important than what is being posted.

You make a good point. This post isn't and shouldn't be about USU, but I do hope that the rudeness and vitriol that some people have for individuals like this SP can be recognized and eschewed. The rudeness exists and I hope we can see it for what it is: ugliness.

[Kenngo1969]

9 minutes ago, Duncan said:

which leads to a whole host of other questions, I was always taught our trials are individualized and  God wants you to go through something to get something, I think Pres. Packer gave a talk about it in the '70's.

So God is Santa Claus?  We get "presents" if we're "good" and "lumps of coal" if we're "bad"?  Nah!  If someone is blessed for his or her obedience, more power to him or her, but the longer I live, the more I realize that the fewer such guarantees we have.  The only real guarantee we have is a reward for our obedience hereafter. As for the "going-through-something-to-get-something" idea, I think that's right, but I think, largely, what we "go through" is mortality, and what we get comes hereafter.  See also here: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/on-gods-injustice/ 

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what?  what do you propose then? aren't we supposed to see others and God sees them? I doubt God sees them as wrong,

I don't agree.
 

Quote

if he did why is he allowing her to have those feelings or he created those feelings for her? 

Effects of the Fall, and he didn't create those feelings.

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't agree.
 

Effects of the Fall, and he didn't create those feelings.

so who did and why?

[Johnnie Cake]

Posted this in another thread but it seems more appropriate here

 

   5 hours ago,  Johnnie Cake said: 

Evidently being transgender = apostasy now.  A new Mormon stories podcast has just been release. The interview is with a former 20 year church architect who oversaw temple construction and design. She also severed as a bishop and stake president in Tooele. 

She continued to work at the COB with the full blessing of church authorities for 4 years after disclosing that she only projected a man while at work and resumed her gender away from the COB both in public and at home. 

Now she's been excommunicated 

this is a very sad but spirituality uplifting interview with Laurie Lee. She is very respectful towards her former stake councilor and the church who moved forward with her church court despite her only sin was self identifing as a female. She remains in her 34 year committed marriage to her wife

i recommend this to members of this board because she remains andlbeliever is respectful to the church and the GAs she worked closely with. I believe this is an important interview 

 

if if you want to understand this women and her gender listen to her podcast interview...it was very tender and moving. I can't understand why there wasn't more love and compassion extended to her by her stake leaders...very sad 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

When someone hears voices coming out of electrical sockets telling them to keeping cutting up all the fabric in the room or their blood will freeze (a real case my RN mother related to me)--nobody would ever assume to tell that person that what they are hearing isn't reality.  It does no good.  To the person experiencing the voices, it's reality and their actions responding to the voices' commands is perfectly normal.  

However, no mental health professional would ever attempt to reinforce the delusion.  They would suggest therapy, medication, and observed care.  I don't understand why when a man physically born as such decides he's a woman, the response is for everyone to go along with it? 

If I recall, John Hopkins stopped doing sex reassignment surgeries because the suicide rate for recovering patients was through the roof.  It wasn't helping them, and not targeting the real problem--that of mental illness

I'm not so convinced that it is a mental illness as I usually think of that term - so much as some type of physical biological damage done by chemical exposure or something like that. As fetuses we are especially susceptible to pollutants, preservatives, chemicals both eaten, or absorbed through the skin, etc. i feel it is almost like excommunicating someone for uncontrollable ticks in which they spout off all sorts of profanities. I have a nephew with autism who recently started screaming all kinds of rudeness and profanities. We understand he can't help it, but what if he starts dressing like a girl, etc? In this man's case obviously he made a choice, but sometimes brain damage can cause drastic changes in behavior that are essentially uncontrollable, and which I don't really think of as mental illness.
I feel tor this man, and that he chose to cause his family (wife) this pain. I have real doubts he is genuinely happier as a woman, even though it seems to be fulfilling some need in his mind. I don't believe there is any innate desire to wear a dress, bra, and the like. It is some kind of visual thing that forms when young. Obviously, primitive hunter-gatherer societies do not engender a desire to wear a bra, dress, etc. For some reason he imprinted on being like mom rather than being like dad I think. Whether that was somehow biological rather than purely mental, I don't know. However, he seemed to have enough control that I do not dispute his excommunication.

[Rock_N_Roll]

17 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

this is a very sad but spirituality uplifting interview with Laurie Lee. She is very respectful towards her former stake councilor and the church who moved forward with her church court despite her only sin was self identifing as a female. She remains in her 34 year committed marriage to her wife

 

Wait…”She remains in her 34 year committed marriage to her wife”.  Doesn’t that put her in a SSM, which is considered apostasy and automatic excommunication?  (as per the policy). 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Rock_N_Roll

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

http://www.sltrib.com/home/5522210-155/after-leading-lds-congregations-and-designing

According to Wikipedia, s.v. "gender dysphoria," last accessed today:

I certainly have no idea what it's like to suffer from gender dysphoria, and I don't want to be unsympathetic.  One thing I do wonder, though, is to what extent should the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be expected or required to modify, accommodate, or adapt its doctrine to the needs of a minority.  In The Family: A Proclamation to the World the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ vis-a-vis gender is clear.  The stance of the Church of Jesus Christ regarding those who undergo elective gender reassignment surgery also is clear.

Some believe resolution of these matters, akin to the revelation extending the Priesthood to all worthy males, simply is a matter of the Prophet receiving a revelation on the matter.  The difference between matters involving gender and the lifting of the priesthood ban, however, is that there was always a contingent of Brethren in the Church of Jesus Christ who stated that the ban would be lifted at some point.  Not so with the matter under discussion here.

Thoughts?

http://www.mormonstories.org/laurie-lee-hall/

I have been listening to Laurie's story told to John Dehlin, (everyone's favorite guy on this board!)  Maybe some of you might want to venture out and listen to it, and not mind that she's on Mormon Stories. Laurie seems like great person. She mentions that she's known of her gender all of her life. She mentions that she is still married and still a believer. I dare any of you to listen. It will certainly open eyes and hearts to what transgenderism is. 

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

which leads to a whole host of other questions, I was always taught our trials are individualized and  God wants you to go through something to get something, I think Pres. Packer gave a talk about it in the '70's. So now does God just allow whatever random thing happens to us in a fallen world and he allows things and if any "good" comes from something then great but if not then whatever, they weren't morally strong or didn't do XYZ enough or what?

I don't think Elder Packer was saying every trial we face was custom for us, although I'm not sure what talk you're referring to. (I searched but I couldn't find one making quite that point) Certainly we came to experience trials and I suspect many of the trials we experience were known in a general form before we arrived. But I don't think Elder Packer accepted such micromanaging so as to eliminate free will.

 

[bcuzbcuz]

26 minutes ago, Duncan said:

so who did and why?

I agree with every point you have made in this discussion. Apparently there are those who think gender dydphoria as a mental illness. I agree with your thought that God (church leaders/authorities) missed the whole issue when appointing and confirming this woman as a church bishop and stake president. 

I remember (way back when) a boy on our hockey team was suddenly redefined at puberty as a girl. It all came down to his/her being born with the outward appearances for being male and the inner plumbing to be a girl. The issue in those days was that our hockey league refused to provide facilities for a girl (changeroom and toilets) on the team and he/she was therefore cut from the team. He/she was still the best right winger we had, with a mean right handed shot. 

He/she wasn't confused about gender, society was/is, the church was/is. Doctrine says gender is black and white. Reality has many shades in between.

[Kenngo1969]

32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Kenngo,Thanks for bringing up this topic. I'm in the middle of listening to the story and I feel nothing but love and empathy for this woman.

As should we all.  (Our ability to do so is limited by mortal limits on perception, on cognition, on ability to empathize, and so on, but, to the extent we can, I certainly think we should.)

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I can't even begin to understand the inner turmoil she has dealt with her entire life. It makes me very sad that she was silent her entire life because she knew she couldn't share with loved ones, church leaders, or even therapists because of the judgment she would receive.

Yes, to whatever extent judgment was passed upon her, that is unfortunate and regrettable, and certainly, anyone (outside of a Judge in Israel passing righteous judgment) passing such judment is in need of repentance.  Since she apparently found a therapist who endorsed gender reassignment surgery, she certainly wasn't judged by that therapist, and if her wife was supportive even after hearing the fuller revelation of her true feelings and struggles, she certainly wasn't judged by her wife.

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The church has definitely lived up to her worst fears of judgment and excommunication.

I don't know all of the circumstances surrounding her excommunication, and I find it difficult to believe that she would share the whole picture publicly if it did not cast her in the best light.

Quote

As Duncan said, it's hard to see the value in excommunicating someone for something like this.

The position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints respecting excommunication is different than yours or Duncan's.  Again, if you know all of the circumstances surrounding her excommunication (and I can hardly believe she's told the whole story if it doesn't serve the "Look-what-the-Big-Bad-Mean-Church-Did-to-Me" narrative), you're one up on the rest of us.

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,,, 1- The individual gets reassignment surgery for kicks or to rebel

That doesn't seem to match the narrative favored by the overwhelming majority of people who see gender reassignment surgery as a viable solution to whatever problems undeniably exist.

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2- The individual experiences gender dysphoria as a mental illness

As I said earlier, while I don't endorse equating individuals with any conditions they may have, It seems to me that, in the name of political correctness, the relevant professional communities have drawn a rather arbitrary line between what constitutes a behavioral health disorder and what does not.  I can't discern any intelligible, consistent principles which underlie the drawing of such lines.  As I said earlier, simply because I perceive myself as the One-Eyed, One-Horned, Flying Purple People Eater, Pigeon-Toed and Undergrowed doesn't mean that someone should gouge out an eye, implant a horn in my skull, perform podiatric surgery on me to make me pigeon toed, and remove a few vertebrae to make me even shorter.

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3- The individual experiences gender dysphoria because they correctly recognize that their biological gender doesn't match their spiritual gender

I certainly don't understand all of the reasons behind why such vicissitudes as gender dysphoria might exist in this fallen world.  However, I think that only someone with a good deal of hubris would think himself qualified to make the sort of judgments one must make in order to agree to perform gender reassignment surgery on someone.  

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If the individual truly has a spirit and a body in which the gender doesn't match, it seems heartless to excommunicate. What is the point of punishing further for something that has already caused significant struggle. The church should be there to lift and support, not wash its hands of a person it deems is unworthy or embarrassing.

You're presuming you know the whole story behind why she was excommunicated. I highly doubt that's the case.  And again, your understanding of the purposes behind excommunication does not match the stated aims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in imposing that sanction.

 

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These individuals deserve compassion and kindness, not harshness and judgment.

Agreed.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm reminded of Scott's recent thread about the supposed rudeness of LDS towards LGBT individuals.

I knew I could count on USU78 to represent that kind of rudeness again.

Ridiculous non sequitur.