Tacenda Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Maestrophil said: I agree. Many of us - at least I - have given JD a long fair shake. I used to listen to him a lot when I was searching for answers and spent quite a while consuming his podcasts, until I saw a consistent shift on his part to an anti-LDS agenda. You can't blame people for staying away from poison when they see it. I recognize that there are those who see JD as a hero and/or a courageous warrior for truth, and I say bully for them. However, Tacenda, and others must understand why many of us see JD as a person with a negative message. I do understand why you would think he is negative towards the church, I wholeheartedly agree. I just wish the interview was done by someone else so these people are heard. Maybe Laurie will be interviewed by someone like Doug Fabrizio on Radiowest. I'm not saying John Dehlin hasn't done some good, by helping some stay in the church and by helping people feel like they can deal better with faith crisis. He isn't that fantastic at interviewing, but has the psychology degree which may help. I'm up in the air about him still. I hear he will be interviewing the teacher at BYUI that was recently fired for supporting LGBTQ's on FB. We'll see... Kenngo, I wonder if you could reach out to Laurie, I bet she'd love hearing from you. Do we as members, oops, I guess I'm kind of on the fringe, but should faithful members of the church still show her some love? I think so. As long as Laurie isn't harming anyone. I'll bet her family would like that, so as to not feel ousted or shunned also, because of their father's choice. Or I should say mother's choice. Edited July 20, 2017 by Tacenda
hope_for_things Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: What you are talking about would amount to redefining the Church of Jesus Christ out of existence. It would be transforming a horse into an aardvark. You don't understand Mormonism very well if you think the items you have mentioned are negotiable or subject to change. I disagree, and as a life long member I think I understand Mormonism quite well. None of those items are non-negotiable in my opinion. 27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Perhaps what you and like-minded others need to do is to start your own church that you can tinker with and mold to your liking instead of trying to transform someone else's. You wouldn't have to wait for anything to evolve. From the starting gate you could have your church profess all the things you dream of as expressed in your post above -- and more besides, such as believing in the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction instead of what it purports to be. Tell you what: To help you get started, I found this website that gives step-by-step instructions on starting a church from scratch. There's even an app you can download. From the website: No thanks, I'm not in the religion starting business. But if those things that you consider non-negotiable do change in the future, then you might want to keep this link, because you may want to start a break off more fundamentalist Mormon group. 1
hope_for_things Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 25 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Sorry to burst your bubble, but you aren't going to see any such doctrinal unfolding along the lines you propose... That is, of course, unless the Church goes apostate, and that's not going to happen. Well, if it does change, it sounds like you and Scott might want to stick together, he's already done some research about how to form a new church. 1
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: Thanks, that is important to acknowledge. We put our leaders up on pedestals, not just prophets in an LDS context, but other leaders in the broader culture as well... didn't have a chance to even mention that the history is accurate and have a discussion about the myths that we've created around our hero's that in some ways deify our hero's. Hopefully another time with this individual they will be open to a more complicated discussion. Putting stories and glimpses of peoples hearts on a pedestal or wall or hearth can be a good thing. As long as we're not making a caricature of the person, but are drawing from such stories/glimpses the kinda stuff that will make us and our chidlren bettern people. Just Scyld/Shield was held up as an example, both among the people and those who led, as a reminder of what could/should be. The reason I started this reply was to share a glimpse I got of the Swedish/Danish side of my little family tree/shrubbery. I was preparing a history of the first couple in the Scanihoovian branch of to join the chuch. I noticed from a short account written by a cousin who had known them both, that she said Bengta was blind at a certain age. And I did a doubletake, and looked at the rough-skeleton chronology I had drafted up, and realized that meant she was blind before they married. And was facing challenges of other sorts. And he courted/married her. *That* is the kind of story I want my children's children to one day know. Hoping that kinda thing is on a pedestal or hearth. I like the tech option today, where people have a smartTv where the hearth used to be, and masterpieces of art swap out every day, hour, or few minutes. Would be cool to have something like that about the worthwhilse masterpieces from our family narratives/scriptures. Where walking by, or reading, the kids might occasionally look up and notice an objecdt lesson from the past that made that family what it is. Conversation starters for parents to ofer or be invited into a situation to teach and testify..or to allow the halfling to do the same. A wee greenhouse. Did the man in that relationship initially have superior positioning, akin to some of the things you mentioned about founding fathers and such? Depends on your meaning. Some might say that he did. Or that she did. But the outcome was an honorable mutual decision. That's what matters, isn't it? :::throwing down the gauntlet::: Just decided I wanna build a smartTV solution that does precisely that. (Had publicly committed earlier to wade in on a smartTv channel anywho...so adding that facet will be a fun piece.) Hoping some of you choose to help, and/or compete, and/or occasionally watch with the halflings. The world might be a wee bit brightr either way. Might even document what it took to build so others can follow suit, if they one day feel stirred to do so. Rambled long enough. Not sure what that has to do with a priesthood leader in drag. Mebbe when his full story matures, it'll be something to look at and say, hmmm. Thoughts? Suggestions? Tomatos? Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7
Bobbieaware Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Well, if it does change, it sounds like you and Scott might want to stick together, he's already done some research about how to form a new church. We could call it the Real Reorganized Church of ...
hope_for_things Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, hagoth7 said: The reason I started this reply was to share a glimpse I got of the Swedish/Danish side of my little family shrubber. I was preparing a hisotry of him and his Bengta, and I noticed from a short account written by a cousin who had known them both, that she said Bengta was blind at a certain age. And I did a doubletake, and looked at the rough-skeleton chronology, and realized that meant she was blind before they married. And in a difficult way in other matters. Sounds like a sweet story, and a good tradition to establish in a family. I believe in stories that uplift and inspire, they create meaning in our lives, even though they are sometimes exaggerated or overly simplified, they can be of great value.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I disagree, and as a life long member I think I understand Mormonism quite well. None of those items are non-negotiable in my opinion. No thanks, I'm not in the religion starting business. Just in the religion-transforming business, it would seem. Quote But if those things that you consider non-negotiable do change in the future, then you might want to keep this link, because you may want to start a break off more fundamentalist Mormon group. One of the things that the resurrected John the Baptist told Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery on the occasion of the restoration of the priesthood was that it would never again be taken from the earth. Which says to me that attempts to hijack the Church of Jesus Christ will come to naught. You can count on that. You'll have a much easier time starting your own group. No troublesome matters like authority and priesthood keys to worry about. Edited July 20, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
hope_for_things Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: We could call it the Real Reorganized Church of ... RRC, I like it. As long as you can convert one of Joseph Smith's descendants in order to have the Real legitimate authority again.
hope_for_things Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: One of the things that the resurrected John the Baptist told Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery on the occasion of the restoration of the priesthood was that it would never again be taken from the earth. Which says to me that attempts to hijack the Church of Jesus Christ will come to naught. You can count on that. You'll have a much easier time starting your own group. No troublesome matters like authority and priesthood keys to worry about. Seems like there were some prophecies, although nothing in the canon that I can remember, but something I've heard people talk about in church where there would be a falling away of high leaders in the church in the last days. Maybe Uchtdorf or someone us more progressive types like, will separate and we'll form a new faction. Have you ever heard of that prophecy? I'm sure it was talked about in my circles as a kid, but I don't know what the origins are.
Danzo Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Then why are heterosexuals allowed to stay in the church if they have affairs or are sexually active? I know of a few cases, where none of them were ex'd. I don't know why you would expect results to always be uniform I have also heard of homosexuals who have not been exed either. There isn't perfect consistency all around, also circomstances are often different in each case. However All of the people I personally know who have been excommunicated have been excommunicated for heterosexual relations outside of marriage. I know it happens for other reasons, but I just hear about those on the internet. 2
Alan Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 Joining this thread very late. I would just like to respond to the thread title by saying; no your Stake President is not a woman. 3
cinepro Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 12 hours ago, strappinglad said: 1. the parents do all they can to discourage the surgery and try to obtain treatment etc. The son feels rejected and commits suicide. 2. The parents do all they can to support their son in his decision, the surgery is done and later , disheartened that nothing has changed in his life, the son commits suicide (as studies have shown happens all to often) . In which scenario are the parents off the hook? In both cases, the parents have done "all they can" to help their son. I wouldn't consider them "on the hook" either way. But in either case, they would feel crushing sorrow and they would go the rest of their lives always wondering where they had gone wrong and if they could have done more. Hopefully this isn't a no-win scenario. This does also raise the more practical questions, such as if he comes to Church, do I have a problem with him using the same bathroom as my 13-year-old daughter? I really don't (other than it being a little awkward, I don't think there is any chance of harm coming to her), but I would probably need to explain to her what is going on. But what about other families in the ward? What if my daughter was 8? What if the son decides he wants to use the men's restroom but is dressed as a woman? How do the parents of the young boys feel about that? Again, not because I think there is any danger. It's just a really awkward situation that people aren't naturally disposed towards handling. 1
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: ..No thanks, I'm not in the religion starting business... "It's a prestigious line of work, with a long, and glorious tradition!" Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7
ksfisher Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: How does the church manage things like marriage, priesthood, temple work, etc. I think the ultimate solution is to just stop managing it all together. Let people be sealed to whoever they want to be sealed to. Let people identify as whatever gender they want to identify as. Give the priesthood to both genders. Update the tradition about chastity to mean monogamous relationships, not specific to gender or sexual preference. I think this is the path of fairness and the path that we're being called by divine inspiration to go towards. What you seem to be implying here is that you are receiving divine inspiration as to how to guide the church that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are not. That would seem to be a complete revolution in the affairs of the church, that God would no longer go through the leadership of the church and instead make known His will for the church through someone who has not been called to do so. This model for change within the church would seem to violate this principle laid down in Doctrine and Covenants 132:8 "Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion." 1
Bernard Gui Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: At first I would disagree and think that it would never happen in a million years, then I remembered that Joseph Smith was sealed to men, so the same sex. I guess like the apologists mention..it's just being sealed to stay together in the eternities as family. I am sealed to my father and sons. Last I checked, they are men, but who knows any more? 2
Bobbieaware Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: RRC, I like it. As long as you can convert one of Joseph Smith's descendants in order to have the Real legitimate authority again. Don't need to, as we'll follow the LDS "Uhat Church" model.
Bernard Gui Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, cinepro said: In both cases, the parents have done "all they can" to help their son. I wouldn't consider them "on the hook" either way. But in either case, they would feel crushing sorrow and they would go the rest of their lives always wondering where they had gone wrong and if they could have done more. Hopefully this isn't a no-win scenario. This does also raise the more practical questions, such as if he comes to Church, do I have a problem with him using the same bathroom as my 13-year-old daughter? I really don't (other than it being a little awkward, I don't think there is any chance of harm coming to her), but I would probably need to explain to her what is going on. But what about other families in the ward? What if my daughter was 8? What if the son decides he wants to use the men's restroom but is dressed as a woman? How do the parents of the young boys feel about that? Again, not because I think there is any danger. It's just a really awkward situation that people aren't naturally disposed towards handling. It's a strange world in which we live. Getting stranger every day. Edited July 20, 2017 by Bernard Gui 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Seems like there were some prophecies, although nothing in the canon that I can remember, but something I've heard people talk about in church where there would be a falling away of high leaders in the church in the last days. Maybe Uchtdorf or someone us more progressive types like, will separate and we'll form a new faction. Have you ever heard of that prophecy? I'm sure it was talked about in my circles as a kid, but I don't know what the origins are. No. It sounds like spurious rumor to me. Although there have been individual leaders in high positions who have fallen away or been excommunicated, mainly during Joseph Smith's era. The Three Witnesses are noteworthy examples, and some members of the Twelve. The most recent modern examples are Richard R. Lyman in the 1930s (over polygaamy, as I recall) and George P. Lee in 1989 for apostasy. Edited July 20, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Bernard Gui Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) Just a thought, but when being called as a stake president, couldn't one who for life has doubted his sexual identity gracefully decline? Edited July 20, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
SteveO Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Just a thought, but when being called as a stake president, wouldn't one who for life has doubted his sexual identity gracefully decline? The oppression of the church forced him to live a lie his entire life...he took the red pill only recently
hope_for_things Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, ksfisher said: What you seem to be implying here is that you are receiving divine inspiration as to how to guide the church that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are not. That would seem to be a complete revolution in the affairs of the church, that God would no longer go through the leadership of the church and instead make known His will for the church through someone who has not been called to do so. This model for change within the church would seem to violate this principle laid down in Doctrine and Covenants 132:8 "Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion." I believe revelation is sometimes individual, and sometimes its collective and happens through cultural and societal moves. God works in mysterious ways.
Bernard Gui Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, SteveO said: The oppression of the church forced him to live a lie his entire life...he took the red pill only recently I have been in situations when I was asked if there were any reason I could not serve in a certain calling. I felt I had to come clean and deal with the issues. It is possible to decline without disclosing the reason. Edited July 20, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 22 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: http://www.sltrib.com/home/5522210-155/after-leading-lds-congregations-and-designing According to Wikipedia, s.v. "gender dysphoria," last accessed today: ................................................................. Thoughts? Does the LDS Church have an official statement on hermaphrodism and gender reassignment surgery (some of which is done with newborns). I am unaware of such.
hope_for_things Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: No. It sounds like spurious rumor to me. Could have been one of those folk tales, a three Nephite kind of story. Lots of those from my childhood, just wish I could remember them all.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 21 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: RRC, I like it. As long as you can convert one of Joseph Smith's descendants in order to have the Real legitimate authority again. The legitimate authority, after the death of the Church president and the resultant dissolution of the First Presidency, resides with the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
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