My (Ex) Stake President is a Woman

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, Danzo said:

 

From the dictionary, Emphasis mine

 

"lie

noun

noun: lie; plural noun: lies

1. 1.
   an intentionally false statement.

   "Mungo felt a pang of shame at telling Alice a lie"

   :	untruth, falsehood, fib, fabrication, deception, invention, fiction, piece of fiction, falsification; More

    

Yes, that's one definition.  Here's another:

"3. an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood"

I believe where one crosses the line with accusations is to call the person a liar.  I do not believe they are a liar, if they believe what they are stating is the truth (even if it is not the truth).  We've probably all stated things that we later learned wasn't accurate or wasn't the truth or that we were mistaken.  That doesn't mean we are a liar.

I don't believe the leaders we're discussing were liars.  However (even as others have stated), the advise they gave was not correct or true.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by ALarson

[USU78]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, that's one definition.  Here's another:

"3. an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood"

I believe where one crosses the line with accusations is to call the person a liar.  I do not believe they are a liar, if they believe what they are stating is the truth (even if it is not the truth).  We've probably all stated things that we later learned wasn't accurate or the truth or we were mistaken.  That doesn't mean we are a liar.

So  ...  you choose the unfamiliar, arcane, knowing it will be taken as the familiar and usual?  Is there no mendacity in that?

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

So  ...  you choose the unfamiliar, arcane, knowing it will be taken as the familiar and usual?  Is there no mendacity in that?

You can call something that's not true whatever you'd like to call it.  It's still not the truth.

What california boy was advised to do by his leaders was not true.  That's why the church no longer advises those who are gay to marry the opposite sex.  That has been disastrous and heart breaking for so many men, women and children involved.  

[USU78]

21 minutes ago, ALarson said:

You can call something that's not true whatever you'd like to call it.  It's still not the truth.

Then I may call you a liar when you use the term "lie" in order to create an impression of intentionality when you intend to convey mere falsity?

Words matter.

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Words matter.

Yes they do.  That's why I'm not supportive of calling these leaders liars just because what they stated was not true.  I feel using that word is unfair to them from what I know of this situation. 

I think we're both in agreement, so let's not get caught up in semantics here.

(I was actually defending these leaders with my argument.)

Edited July 26, 2017 by ALarson

[Calm]

It is easy enough to use the term "falsehood" to avoid the likely inferring of intentionality when "lie" is read/heard due to its more common definition.

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Then I may call you a liar when you use the term "lie" in order to create an impression of intentionality when you intend to convey mere falsity?

Not if you're being honest.  I've stated all along that I don't believe they intentionally told california boy something that was not the truth.  I've also stated several times that I don't believe they were liars.

How about we move on now....?

[ALarson]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is easy enough to use the term "falsehood" to avoid the likely inferring of intentionality when "lie" is read/heard due to its more common definition.

And the dictionary gives "lie" as a synonym for "falsehood":
 

Quote

 

false·hood

ˈfôlsˌho͝od/

noun

the state of being untrue.

"the truth or falsehood of the many legends that surround her"

a lie.

plural noun: falsehoods

synonyms:lie, untruth, fib, falsification, fabrication, invention, fiction, story, ****-and-bull story, flight of fancy; More

 

 

 

 

I don't believe it has to be intentional for it to be a lie or an untruth.  However, I do not believe these leaders were liars or intended to tell california boy something they knew was not the truth. However, it was not the truth.

Maybe you're thinking of using the word "lie" as a verb and I'm using it as a noun here (from Webster: "an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer").

I was defending these leaders, but if people want to disagree with me on that, ok.

Otherwise, let's move on....

Edited July 26, 2017 by ALarson

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And the dictionary gives "lie" as a synonym for "falsehood":
 

I simply started with asking a question (if a lie or untruth is unintentionally told, does that make someone a liar?).  My answer to that was "no" and I do not believe these leaders were liars.

NOW, can we move on?  I was defending these leaders, but if people want to disagree with me on that, ok.  Otherwise, let's move on....

I think it is great you defend the leaders, I just think it makes for more productive conversation to avoid the use of "lie" given the greater negative connotations it has in comparison to its synonym "falsehood" (synonyms are not automatically interchangeable/identical, but rather similar in meaning so one needs to take care).

[ALarson]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it is great you defend the leaders, I just think it makes for more productive conversation to avoid the use of "lie" given the greater negative connotations it has in comparison to its synonym "falsehood" (synonyms are not automatically interchangeable/identical, but rather similar in meaning so one needs to take care).

I believe it matters whether or not you're using the word as a verb or a noun.  I was using it as a noun.  I don't believe the leaders set out to "lie" (verb...an action), but I do believe an untruth was told (i.e.,  a "lie" ...noun).  

But, I'm moving on as this is getting into silly semantics over something it appears we agree on (that the leaders were not liars).

Edited to add:

And, now I have a headache and wish that I hadn't had so much time to kill today   All this back and forth about something we essentially agree on!  I will use falsehood....or untruth....if I choose to continue here on this thread.  Ha!

Edited July 26, 2017 by ALarson

[california boy]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Every time you say you were lied to you said it was intentional.

You have been saying it for years.

You say it in nearly every thread I encounter you.

Learn the meanings of words you intend to use, unless, of course, you already know and intend their misuse.

Yss I have said that I was lied to.  And in fact that is true.  When you make a promise to someone and say that God has told you something, and in fact God had never told them anything, then it is a lie.  I think they WANTED God to tell them that.  But wanting God to say something and actually having God say something is two different things.  So yes, they lied about saying it was a promise from God himself.  Did they do it maliciously?  No I don't think that nor have I ever said it was malicious.  Was it a lie? Absolutely.  The intent may not have been to lie.  But saying something came from God himself when in fact it did not makes their statement a lie.  

But I never said it was intentional.  If you can find such a post I have ever made, then show ti to me.  Since you say it is in every threat You have encounter me in, that should not be so difficult to find.  

[USU78]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

Yss I have said that I was lied to.  And in fact that is true.  When you make a promise to someone and say that God has told you something, and in fact God had never told them anything, then it is a lie.  I think they WANTED God to tell them that.  But wanting God to say something and actually having God say something is two different things.  So yes, they lied about saying it was a promise from God himself.  Did they do it maliciously?  No I don't think that nor have I ever said it was malicious.  Was it a lie? Absolutely.  The intent may not have been to lie.  But saying something came from God himself when in fact it did not makes their statement a lie.  

But I never said it was intentional.  If you can find such a post I have ever made, then show ti to me.  Since you say it is in every threat You have encounter me in, that should not be so difficult to find.  

You are saying it was intentional right now.  In this post.  In your first paragraph.

You just can't bring yourself to impute any kind of good or kind or at least neutral motive to anybody, can you?  Everybody's evil but you.

Sheesh.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think it is great you defend the leaders, I just think it makes for more productive conversation to avoid the use of "lie" given the greater negative connotations it has in comparison to its synonym "falsehood" (synonyms are not automatically interchangeable/identical, but rather similar in meaning so one needs to take care).

Just to be clear, I have never called any leader a liar.  But I have absolutely said that I was lied to.  Perhaps falsehood may be a better term.  But to be quite honest, this "falsehood" that these leaders told so impacted my life and my wife's life and my children's lives, I have no problem using the word lie.  Words do have consequences as I well know.  The words that these leaders used had HUGE consequences in my life.  They had no right to tell me something that was not true.  It was a lie.

I would like nothing more than for one of these church leaders to stand in front of me and my family and tell me exactly why what they told me was not a lie.  Because from my viewpoint, they have no defense for the lives that they have damaged and the families that were destroyed over this false representation of God himself.  They deserve the harsher word lie in my opinion.

[california boy]

12 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You are saying it was intentional right now.  In this post.  In your first paragraph.

You just can't bring yourself to impute any kind of good or kind or at least neutral motive to anybody, can you?  Everybody's evil but you.

Sheesh.

You can interrupt my words any way you want.  And if you think my words are to harsh, then so be it.  I really don't care.

This is also what I said.

Quote

Did they do it maliciously?  No I don't think that nor have I ever said it was malicious.  Was it a lie? Absolutely.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by california boy

[USU78]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

Just to be clear, I have never called any leader a liar.  But I have absolutely said that I was lied to.  Perhaps falsehood may be a better term.  But to be quite honest, this "falsehood" that these leaders told so impacted my life and my wife's life and my children's lives, I have no problem using the word lie.  Words do have consequences as I well know.  The words that these leaders used had HUGE consequences in my life.  They had no right to tell me something that was not true.  It was a lie.

I would like nothing more than for one of these church leaders to stand in front of me and my family and tell me exactly why what they told me was not a lie.  Because from my viewpoint, they have no defense for the lives that they have damaged and the families that were destroyed over this false representation of God himself.  They deserve the harsher word lie in my opinion.

And you bear no responsibility at all, notwithstanding your misgivings.  You were required, as BY stated, to gain your own personal revelation and not rely on leaders.  You were no child.  You were of age.  You made your own choice after seeking input from others.

Waaa Waaa.  Somebody gave you what, for you, was bad information.  Guess what?  It wasn't bad for everybody.  I have anecdotal evidence in confidence.

And please understand, I think it was a terrible idea, but as you well know Church leaders sought best available medical/psych advice before advising folks back in the day.  You know they were relying on others' advice in giving their advice.

You refuse to forgive.  And you refuse to take personal responsibility.  

Yet you made and continue to make yourself into a pathetic victim of your own passivity.  You made and continue to make yourself into the very person BY warned against.

I'd rather see you heroic than passive:  laudable in true valor instead of pathetic in your passivity; genuine and not false.

You were the actor here.  You were not acted upon.

ETA:  You really shouldn't make yourself the issue in these threads.  You invite responses like I just made, distasteful though it was for me to write.  I beg you, for the love of G-d, find another outlet.  I wish you only well.  Your life as expressed here gives new meaning to tragedy [in the classic sense].  I now bow out of the conversation.  I leave you the last word.

Poster removed

[california boy]

21 minutes ago, USU78 said:

And you bear no responsibility at all, notwithstanding your misgivings.  You were required, as BY stated, to gain your own personal revelation and not rely on leaders.  You were no child.  You were of age.  You made your own choice after seeking input from others.

Waaa Waaa.  Somebody gave you what, for you, was bad information.  Guess what?  It wasn't bad for everybody.  I have anecdotal evidence in confidence.

And please understand, I think it was a terrible idea, but as you well know Church leaders sought best available medical/psych advice before advising folks back in the day.  You know they were relying on others' advice in giving their advice.

You refuse to forgive.  And you refuse to take personal responsibility.  

Yet you made and continue to make yourself into a pathetic victim of your own passivity.  You made and continue to make yourself into the very person BY warned against.

I'd rather see you heroic than passive:  laudable in true valor instead of pathetic in your passivity; genuine and not false.

You were the actor here.  You were not acted upon.

ETA:  You really shouldn't make yourself the issue in these threads.  You invite responses like I just made, distasteful though it was for me to write.  I beg you, for the love of G-d, find another outlet.  I wish you only well.  Your life as expressed here gives new meaning to tragedy [in the classic sense].  I now bow out of the conversation.  I leave you the last word.

They didn't tell me their advice came from the best medical/psych advice of the day.  THEY SAID IT CAME FROM GOD.

And who said I didn't forgive them?  Just because I forgave them, does not change the fact that they told me something that was totally not true.  I am not now going to pretend that they never made such a promise.  

You can make any judgement you want about me.  You can say it is all my fault if it makes you feel better.   I don't care.  But I am going to share my story when appropriate. And that is all I am doing.  Reporting what was promised and what proved to be a false promise.  It is a cautionary tell to others to not be as naive as I was in believing that church leaders speak for God, even when they say they are.  I wish someone had shared such a story with me.  I had no idea church leaders would do such a thing.  Now I know better.  

[ttribe]

33 minutes ago, USU78 said:

And you bear no responsibility at all, notwithstanding your misgivings.  You were required, as BY stated, to gain your own personal revelation and not rely on leaders.  You were no child.  You were of age.  You made your own choice after seeking input from others.

Waaa Waaa.  Somebody gave you what, for you, was bad information.  Guess what?  It wasn't bad for everybody.  I have anecdotal evidence in confidence.

And please understand, I think it was a terrible idea, but as you well know Church leaders sought best available medical/psych advice before advising folks back in the day.  You know they were relying on others' advice in giving their advice.

You refuse to forgive.  And you refuse to take personal responsibility.  

Yet you made and continue to make yourself into a pathetic victim of your own passivity.  You made and continue to make yourself into the very person BY warned against.

I'd rather see you heroic than passive:  laudable in true valor instead of pathetic in your passivity; genuine and not false.

You were the actor here.  You were not acted upon.

ETA:  You really shouldn't make yourself the issue in these threads.  You invite responses like I just made, distasteful though it was for me to write.  I beg you, for the love of G-d, find another outlet.  I wish you only well.  Your life as expressed here gives new meaning to tragedy [in the classic sense].  I now bow out of the conversation.  I leave you the last word.

Yes, as if his posting here forced you to be obnoxious, rude, and crass. What a joke.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

 I will use falsehood....or untruth....if I choose to continue here on this thread.  Ha!

I think it will help future conversations avoid being sidetracked.