My (Ex) Stake President is a Woman

[USU78]

... or one has freedom of action and of moral choice, notwithstanding difficulty of execution of morally significant acts because of inborn/acquired thorns. Plenty of people do.

Untold mischief can and does ensue when one doesn't.

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm absolutely sure you didn't intend actually to pull the pin on that grenade before lobbing it in my direction (and that you even realize that's what you've done) but, in this thread, that's the rough equivalent of a "Have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife?" question.  Even the most masculine man still has feminine traits and even the most feminine woman still has masculine traits, even if such traits are manifest only infrequently and/or only briefly.  The complicated issues surrounding gender dysphoria, ambiguous body parts, and similar issues aside, the feminine traits in a man don't necessarily make him any less of a man and the masculine traits in a woman don't necessarily make her any less of a woman.

I never felt there was anything unusual about President Hall in the limited dealings I had with him, but if I were to say, "Yeah, there was always something that seemed just a little bit ... off ... about him to me," I would be falling prey to at least two phenomena that are very common in the human condition: (1) Hindsight bias, and (2) Gender and other stereotypes. There's a radical notion in Christianity that because Christ is a man, He cannot save, cannot succor, and cannot identify with women: I don't agree.  I once had some things to say about Deity vis-a-vis masculinity and femininity.  See here: 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2016/08/29/on-the-alleged-feminization-of-christianity/

I seriously didn't have those intentions, glad you agree, whew! My husband is more girl-like than me, I always say I'm the man out of the two of us, in regards to him liking crafts and making things for the yard etc.

And a few other things that are more girl-like things that it's hard to describe on here, so you're right. So maybe my question was kind of dumb.

Also, I really wanted to keep on topic, and that was what I thought of, those questions. You know me, always sticking my big foot in my mouth.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

43 minutes ago, USU78 said:

... or one has freedom of action and of moral choice, notwithstanding difficulty of execution of morally significant acts because of inborn/acquired thorns. Plenty of people do.

Untold mischief can and does ensue when one doesn't.

I don't disagree.  I'm not condoning the choices the former Bishop-and-President Hall has made or the actions he took or has taken.  All I'm saying is that some miles are harder to walk, and some moccasins are harder to walk in, and hindsight is always 20/20.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

Her story is indeed an amazing story. ...

No doubt.  However, as amazing as her story is, more amazing by orders of magnitude will be the stories we'll never hear because those at the center of those stories will never tell them ... at least, they'll never tell them in this life:  Stories of those who confide private struggles to reconcile their sexuality with an accompanying abiding desire that is as strong or stronger to remain faithful to the tenets of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, cueste lo que cueste, to Judges in Israel, and Judges in Israel who provide succor and sustenance, who themselves "lift up the hands which hang down" and "strengthen the feeble knees" and who counsel those closest to those experiencing such struggles to do likewise.

Those stories will be the truly amazing ones, and the rewards for that kind of faithfulness (as important as remaining true to oneself might be, often, it's much more difficult to remain true to causes that are much greater than oneself, especially when all the world screams that such faithfulness is irrelevant or insignificant) will be the truly amazing rewards.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[USU78]

31 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't disagree.  I'm not condoning the choices the former Bishop-and-President Hall has made or the actions he took or has taken.  All I'm saying is that some miles are harder to walk, and some moccasins are harder to walk in, and hindsight is always 20/20.

My response was to CB's whining again about his claims of having been allegedly lied to while taking no responsibility for significant moral choices made.

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, USU78 said:

My response was to CB's whining again about his claims of having been allegedly lied to while taking no responsibility for significant moral choices made.

Do you believe california boy is lying regarding what took place?

I enjoy his contributions here and feel he adds a lot to any discussion he enters.  From what I've seen, he tries to be respectful of others, is quick to apologize if he's ever over stepped or offended and is civil.  Your post above is an example of none of those (but is a great example of being rude as was recently discussed).

Edited July 22, 2017 by ALarson

[USU78]

21 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Do you believe california boy is lying regarding what took place?

I enjoy his contributions here and feel he adds a lot to any discussion he enters.  From what I've seen, he tries to be respectful of others, is quick to apologize if he's ever over stepped or offended and is civil.  Your post above is an example of none of those (but is a great example of being rude as was recently discussed).

I take exception to the disingenuous usage of the word "lie," which requires, to be honest and accurate, both objective falsity and mens rea. He always skips that ohsoimportant second part.

Such misuse amounts to whinery. Robs the assertion of importance.

It's getting boring.

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I take exception to the disingenuous usage of the word "lie," which requires, to be honest and accurate, both objective falsity and mens rea. He always skips that ohsoimportant second part.

Such misuse amounts to whinery. Robs the assertion of importance.

It's getting boring.

What? 

I just want to mention...whether gay, or transgender, families are torn apart literally, and figuratively, stemming from religious beliefs. I don't think God/Jesus intended for it to be this way. For a church that is family, or so-called family oriented...it has a lot to learn. 

Our friend's sister is a lesbian. She can't even be near her father because of the heart wrenching problems given she came out gay while a teenager. She's in her 60's now and they still aren't able to be in the same room. He can't seem to get over the fact that she's gay. He and his wife served several missions, and are staunch. I wish sometimes, people in the church would have faith crises once in a while, just to get a grip. I believe that there should be a middle way, for all. 

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

What? 

CB keeps accusing the Brethren of lying. Nobody lied. But he keeps beating the kettle drum and droning on and on and on. That's "what."

[Kenngo1969]

Quote

I wish sometimes, people in the church would have faith crises once in a while, just to get a grip.

 

Are the people of whom you spoke in the rest of your post too judgmental?  Perhaps.  Could they use a change in perspective? Maybe.  But you are seriously misguided if you think that a faith crisis would be the best way to accomplish that.  (And while I don't wish to be unduly judgmental of anyone who is having or who has had a faith crisis, some of us think that faith crises involve losing one's grip in some very important ways on some very important things.)

Edited July 22, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

What? 

I just want to mention...whether gay, or transgender, families are torn apart literally, and figuratively, stemming from religious beliefs. I don't think God/Jesus intended for it to be this way. For a church that is family, or so-called family oriented...it has a lot to learn. 

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

(Luke 12:49-53)

I think that Christ is acknowleding here that within families there will be those who accept and try to live the gospel and those who won't and that this will cause conflict within those families.  While we should do everything we can to mitigate those difficulties our first obligation is to be obedient to God's commands.

[Darren10]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

I think I should address the above posts in a general way rather than answer each of them individually.  Let's start with the issue of the stake president.  Either you believe somone is called by God and God knows the flaws that person has but still wants them to fulfill the calling. Or you believe the person is called by men and they need all the information they can have in order to make an informed decision.  I will leave it up to each of you to decide which scenario you choose to believe.  

The decision on how to resolve these issues is always easier in hindsight.  And all of the information is not always present when making those type of decisions.  Let's take the gay person, trying desperately to do the will of God.  His church leaders make him the solemn promise that if he will just marry a woman, he will eventually no longer be gay.  He will loose his attraction to men.  They reassure him that they are speaking for God.  So is it reasonable for the gay man to believe those church leaders and assume that being gay was just a temporary condition that will have no long term effects on his relationship?  YES IT IS.  Except for the fact that the church leaders were actually deceiving him.  There was no promise from God that he would change.  There was a false belief by church leaders.  THAT was the deception that started this whole scenerio.  If they had been truthful and told the man that he was always going to be gay, then it is quite reasonable that the person would never have married a woman.  Why would he?

Now the person is in the marriage.  The church comes out and says "sorry" that promise from God was not really from God.  You will probably always be gay.  So at that point does the gay man leave the marriage?  Does he leave his children and become a weekend dad?  Did he not make a commitment to raise them?  So he does the honorable thing even though he was totally deceived by church leaders to stay in the marriage until the children have left home.  

During this time, church leader ask the gay man to serve in various capacities.  They reassure him that yes indeed, God has inspired them to call him to that position.  Should the gay man believe those statements to be true?  Did God inspire those men to call him or not.  Does he believe that God knows he is gay and knows what He is doing?  Is it reasonable for him to trust God? 

What if he comes out right there to the bishop or stake president and tells them that he is gay.  That he was lied to by previous church leaders who told him that he would no longer be gay if he just married a woman.  And what if by revealing that, the family falls apart while the children are still young.  They end up without the influence of their father in their daily lives.  Is that a better solution?

While I am not transgender, many of the same false beliefs, hopes and promises by church leaders were made that were deceitful in providing the correct information for those choices that were originally made based o those false promises.  The deceit started with the church.  And now you want to blame the gay person?  Or the transgender person for being deceitful?    

Judge all you want.  But I only ask that you judge the church more harshly than the individual who trusted in those that claimed to be speaking for God who started this whole mess.

  

You did a very honorable thing and waited until your kids were out of the house before ending your marriage though if I personally knew you I would have always implored you to stay in the marriage but at the same ti e fully realizing that decision eould be between you, your spouse, and God. 

Your fortune with church leaders is a sad one. I agree that sone were deceitful towarss you in that what they promised you from your getting married was wrong. I do not think they "lied" to you in that they honestly thought cause X would result in affect Y. It is my experience that in a real spiritual inspiration from God, you may feel and know it is right but perhaps not to its full extent. This has happened to me many times. I know I was inspired to share gospel truths to others only to realize later how I could have framed or timed it better. Other times I was inspired to make a decision to alter a course of action I was taking only to find out later from its negative results why I should have done what I was inspired to do ealier. I "live and learn" as they say and church leaders are no different, neither are you. 

So I suspect that your church leaders truly were inspired to counsel you to marry a woman and that that would help you. Their promise that it would somehow cure you I think was sincere but based upon their worldy wisdom. It was a wrong thing to promise you but I can understand completely how they may have conflated that promise with the inspiration for you to marry. You basically did not get "all the information" you needed to make the correct decision but there is no doubt that you chose many honorable things out your trials. That cannot be taken away from you. 

It's impossible to tell for sure what could have happened had you never been made the promise to no longer be gay if you just married a woman but Inthink one thing had you been told that "statistically speaking you may never become not gay even after marrying a woman" would have aided you in your marriage had you still decided to do it. 

Take care and God bless.

[Darren10]

7 hours ago, USU78 said:

So ... G-d is responsible for the failure and lies of the called? Jonah never flees on a ⛵ because he has no freedom of moral agency?

You should write the lyrics to Primary songs on those big billboards with picture skills like that boat there.

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My husband is more girl-like than me, I always say I'm the man out of the two of us, in regards to him liking crafts and making things for the yard etc.

The cultural habit of assigning such things to one sex over another is part of the problem, imo.  There are likely few likes and dislikes or behaviour that are actually inherently feminine or masculine.  Instead it is our society that has made it so (one great example is the past idea that women were better cooks or liked cooking more than men and thus should be in charge of meal preparation...until one looked at cooking that actually made money and then suddenly it was men only who could be gifted "chefs").

[USU78]

16 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

You should write the lyrics to Primary songs on those big billboards with picture skills like that boat there.

 

I teach the 7-8 year olds

[Calm]

"if I personally knew you I would have always implored you to stay in the marriage but at the same ti e fully realizing that decision eould be between you, your spouse, and God."

Iirc, though I may be mixing up cb with someone else, he was willing to stay married after telling his wife he was gay, it was her choice to get divorced.

My apologies, California Boy, if I am misrepresenting the situation.

[Kenngo1969]

5 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I teach the 7-8 year olds

Can I come sit in on your class sometime?  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

Are the people of whom you spoke in the rest of your post too judgmental?  Perhaps.  Could they use a change in perspective?  Maybe.  But you are seriously misguided if you think that a faith crisis would be the best way to accomplish that.

I disagree, because had I not gone through mine, I painfully will admit to being more judgemental and possibly losing a good relationship with my adult children that are no longer active. 

[Kenngo1969]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I disagree, because had I not gone through mine, I painfully will admit to being more judgemental and possibly losing a good relationship with my adult children that are no longer active. 

I certainly wish you well, and harbor no ill will toward you.  I'm glad you've all found a comfortable place when it comes to dealing with such complex issues.  However, a faith crisis is not a sin qua non to becoming more accepting, and a sample size of one hardly provides sufficient grounds to make the sweeping statement to which I responded.

[Darren10]

58 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I teach the 7-8 year olds

Ahhhhhhhhhh, the plot is uncovering.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Darren10 said:

You did a very honorable thing and waited until your kids were out of the house before ending your marriage though if I personally knew you I would have always implored you to stay in the marriage but at the same ti e fully realizing that decision eould be between you, your spouse, and God. 

Your fortune with church leaders is a sad one. I agree that sone were deceitful towarss you in that what they promised you from your getting married was wrong. I do not think they "lied" to you in that they honestly thought cause X would result in affect Y. It is my experience that in a real spiritual inspiration from God, you may feel and know it is right but perhaps not to its full extent. This has happened to me many times. I know I was inspired to share gospel truths to others only to realize later how I could have framed or timed it better. Other times I was inspired to make a decision to alter a course of action I was taking only to find out later from its negative results why I should have done what I was inspired to do ealier. I "live and learn" as they say and church leaders are no different, neither are you. 

So I suspect that your church leaders truly were inspired to counsel you to marry a woman and that that would help you. Their promise that it would somehow cure you I think was sincere but based upon their worldy wisdom. It was a wrong thing to promise you but I can understand completely how they may have conflated that promise with the inspiration for you to marry. You basically did not get "all the information" you needed to make the correct decision but there is no doubt that you chose many honorable things out your trials. That cannot be taken away from you. 

It's impossible to tell for sure what could have happened had you never been made the promise to no longer be gay if you just married a woman but Inthink one thing had you been told that "statistically speaking you may never become not gay even after marrying a woman" would have aided you in your marriage had you still decided to do it. 

Take care and God bless.

Thank you Darren.  I think it is very difficult for those that did not live though the experience to make judgements on how a person should have behaved or what choices they should have made.  And actually it was my wife that asked for the divorce.  I think she knew that it was not something I could have easily done and at the same time, I think she knew that it was really the right thing for us.  We are still very good friends.  And she is and always has been a very sweet and kind person.  I will always be grateful for her courage and support she has shown me.  

It is why I am so unwilling to make judgements towards others that have made such important life changing decisions.  They are not easy decisions to make and often come after much fasting and prayer.  Sometimes for years.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

"if I personally knew you I would have always implored you to stay in the marriage but at the same ti e fully realizing that decision eould be between you, your spouse, and God."

Iirc, though I may be mixing up cb with someone else, he was willing to stay married after telling his wife he was gay, it was her choice to get divorced.

My apologies, California Boy, if I am misrepresenting the situation.

Your memory is correct.  

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

Her story is indeed an amazing story.  I have no idea what it possibly could be like to struggle with this issue.  It is the one issue that makes being gay look like a walk in the park.  But what I do identify with is knowing how much has to be sacrificed in order to come out.  Yet she was completely willing to take all the public abuse and judgement in order to be honest with herself and to live what is an authentic life for her.  While I don't at all understand what going through something like that might be like, I completely admire such courage.  And knowing the sacrifices and judgement that she has received over coming out, I will not judge her one bit.  I will accept her choice and wish her a happier life.  

A few years ago, I worked with a former male Marine gunnery sgt, but who now wore a female wig and was officially transgendered.  I treated her just like anyone else, and we discussed life in the Marine Corps (because I had also been a Marine).  The whole transgender matter is a deep mystery to me.

[Kenngo1969]

7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A few years ago, I worked with a former male Marine gunnery sgt, but who now wore a female wig and was officially transgendered.  I treated her just like anyone else, and we discussed life in the Marine Corps (because I had also been a Marine).  The whole transgender matter is a deep mystery to me.

I think it is to a lot of people.

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't condone one placing oneself in a class by oneself, and even if one is absolutely right that one has been dealt a lot that is virtually uniquely difficult, the next question is always, Ergo, what?  I agree with your implication that the trouble with pity parties is that the guest list rarely (if ever) is more than one name long.  And I certainly would never condone dishonesty.  

However, all of that having been said, everything that is embarrassing is not equally embarrassing, everything that is inconvenient is not equally inconvenient, and everything that is distressing is not equally distressing.  Even a sincere acknowledgment that something is painful, that it's embarrassing, that it's inconvenient, and that it's distressing is not the same thing as crawling into someone's skin and making the decisions he makes at the time he makes them with the (probably limited) information and perspective he has at that time.  

Agreed.

Estimates are that gender dysphoria affects between 0.05% (born male) and 0.014% (born female) of the population.

Your grammatical/typographical slip is revealing, even if (I'm absolutely sure) entirely unintended.  And even if the judgment you pass is 100% righteous, it is also passed with the benefit of hindsight.  It's easy to look back with that benefit and to say what someone else should have done: Discerning correct courses at the moment of decision, with the (likely limited) information and perspective one has at the time, is not so easy.  And under the standard you have set, I probably should have declined every single calling I've ever received in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

No, it's not, and I'm not condoning what he did, condoning the decisions he made, or trying to minimize the fallout of those decisions to other people, but again, with due respect (and I think you know that I hold you in absolutely the highest regard), because of all of the information and the perspective that is available to you (thanks to the incredible benefit of hindsight), you're looking at another person's situation and saying he should have made different decisions as though all of the information that is available to you now was available to him at the time he made the decisions he made, when that's not the case.

Again, I'm not condoning what he did, but it's easy to look back at another person's situation assuming that all of the information available to us now was available to him at the time he made those decisions, when that's not the case.  Even the most sincere, well-intentioned hindsight bias is still hindsight bias.

I'm not sure what was revealed in my poor grammar. Let me clarify and see If it clears things up. In an interview where one might find it necessary but too painful to reveal something extraordinarily distressing, one can decline simply by saying "no, not at this time," without further explanation. That is an acceptable and honest answer. Saying "yes" and hiding the problem is not a good thing. When I said many of us may have been in this situation I was thinking about other circumstances that we might not be prepared to deal with, not gender issues. Does that help?

I don't know how to gauge levels of embarrassment. That's probably an individual thing; however, honesty is the best for all, whether it be minor like Diet Coke, watching inappropriate media, or catastrophic things like this. The longer the deception goes on, the greater will be the fallout. That's a fact.

I don't want to be perceived as judgmental, but this person has made an intensely personal matter public, has achieved some celebrity as a result (stories, interviews, etc.), but has subjected the Church and its leaders to ridicule, and friends and family to great pain. These things resulted from choices that were made over many years. Recognizing this doesn't constitute judgement in my opinion, but others may disagree. 

My experiences working with loved ones of addicts include a number of situations similar to this. They involved decades of choices made with deep deception. When the truth could no longer be hidden, the hounds of hell were set loose. Only one of these turned out in a somewhat positive way. I can't think of any that should get time in the news, discussion boards, and internet blogs. This all seems very strange to me, but I often rightly confess to being a coot of the very old school.

Perhaps something positive can come from all this...... unfortunate people in a similar position may not have to feel the need to live a life of deception any more, and hindsight may no longer be needed. Paz.