poptart Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc. I'm really curious, deep down i think most christians don't believe it. I tend to look at religion as a way to pass on values and keep society/public morality in check, yet i know people who always profess a sincere belief in diety from the church. Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life do any of you truly believe in your religion? Why?
JLHPROF Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Just now, poptart said: Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc. I'm really curious, deep down i think most christians don't believe it. I tend to look at religion as a way to pass on values and keep society/public morality in check, yet i know people who always profess a sincere belief in diety from the church. Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life do any of you truly believe in your religion? Why? I think this is a very strange post. I think most Christians of every denomination believe in Christ and the atonement. Our personal weaknesses as mortals doesn't change that. And despite what an atheist will tell you, most Christians can point to specific experiences in their lives that confirm those beliefs for them, even if those experiences aren't transferrable to others. I truly believe in my religion and so do most people on this board, even if we don't agree on religion. 2
bluebell Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Being a Christian is pretty taxing. It's mostly about service, sacrifice, and becoming holy. I can't imagine going through all that if I didn't really believe it. The payout would not be worth it. 3
Popular Post CV75 Posted June 19, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, poptart said: Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc. I'm really curious, deep down i think most christians don't believe it. I tend to look at religion as a way to pass on values and keep society/public morality in check, yet i know people who always profess a sincere belief in diety from the church. Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life do any of you truly believe in your religion? Why? "Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life" alone, I believe in my religion because the light shines out of darkness and in my heart. I have seen a great light and it shines upon me. But there are other considerations too, and none of them contradict the effects of the light shining forth our of darkness. 5
poptart Posted June 19, 2017 Author Posted June 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I think this is a very strange post. I think most Christians of every denomination believe in Christ and the atonement. Our personal weaknesses as mortals doesn't change that. And despite what an atheist will tell you, most Christians can point to specific experiences in their lives that confirm those beliefs for them, even if those experiences aren't transferrable to others. I truly believe in my religion and so do most people on this board, even if we don't agree on religion. I have friends who are Episcopal, Catholic, etc. And for them it's mostly about tradition, morals and passing on cultural norms. Most people go to church a few times in their lives, as children, for marriage, and towards the end. Christianity helped create hospitals, the university system and various other institutions but i've always wondered about the belief part. 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: Being a Christian is pretty taxing. It's mostly about service, sacrifice, and becoming holy. I can't imagine going through all that if I didn't really believe it. The payout would not be worth it. That sounds pretty Catholic. 12 minutes ago, CV75 said: "Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life" alone, I believe in my religion because the light shines out of darkness and in my heart. I have seen a great light and it shines upon me. But there are other considerations too, and none of them contradict the effects of the light shining forth our of darkness. Go on....
JLHPROF Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, poptart said: I have friends who are Episcopal, Catholic, etc. And for them it's mostly about tradition, morals and passing on cultural norms. Most people go to church a few times in their lives, as children, for marriage, and towards the end. Christianity helped create hospitals, the university system and various other institutions but i've always wondered about the belief part. If you are speaking of the existence of cultural members of each religion (cultural Mormons, cultural Catholics, cultural Christians) as opposed to those who truly believe, I would be willing to acknowledge their existence. However, I think you overstate the case completely when you say " most Christians don't believe it." Some are part of the culture but don't believe, however I don't think "MOST" is an accurate description at all. 3
Duncan Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 I'm sure you've heard the old rhyme, "Mary had a little lamb, it grew to be a Sheep and then it joined the Mormon Church and died from lack of Sleep" If you don't believe then why do all these things for your calling, service in the community et al.? 3
bluebell Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 24 minutes ago, poptart said: That sounds pretty Catholic. Well Catholics are Christians so it makes sense if it does.
poptart Posted June 19, 2017 Author Posted June 19, 2017 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: Well Catholics are Christians so it makes sense if it does. Worldwide Catholics are winning. Kinda sad how protestantism is crumbling, rome tossed the church of england a lifeline, looks like the lutherans may need one soon too.
halconero Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Absolutely, I believe. I went through phases though. Around age 15-23 I would say my faith was grounded primarily in my conception of what was true or not. Basically I believe it was true, acted thusly, and found great personal satisfaction in it. From around age 23-25 I went through what I would call my "functional" phase. I use that term because I did Religious Studies as one of my majors in uni and came to realize that religion wasn't exactly the easiest term to define for a variety of reasons. One of the theories is that of functional religion - That religion is a system of association, ritual, ethics, and cosmologies (a fancy way of saying "worldview," basically the "why" of existence). These might range from what we traditionally define as religious associations, while also including civic religion, activism, etc. It's not that my belief had been destroyed. I wouldn't even use the word "shaken." I guess in a way I realized that belief wasn't "enough" for me at the moment. I didn't put my belief on the shelf, but I did put it back in my religious holster for a bit, putting aside whether or not the Gospel as taught was true, and addressing the function of ordinances, church attendance, temple worship, family history, and scripture study in my life. I have to say, it was a very enriching experience and one that I'll always treasure. As an example, I deeply pondered the function of the sacrament in my life. What did it mean for me to ponder my sins, be in a penitent state, confess them before God and if necessary before the church, and then to eat this bread and drink this water passed to me? Why did that physical act matter? What did it teach me? How did it obligate me to act towards God, myself, and others? Again, it's not that belief didn't play into my partaking of the sacrament. It's that my belief wasn't the question at the moment. Since that time (I'm now 27), I've taken both the functional and substantive parts of my religion and built a very deep and holistic outlook on God, the Gospel, and the Church built around that. It's erased troubling questions that I've had, not because they aren't there, not because I don't want an answer, and not because they're not difficult, but the dissonance is gone. I have an assurity that has come through both the belief and the practice of religion. With regards to your question about the short and brutal nature of life, I think it's because Mormonism doesn't demand that we ignore or brush over that brutality. It accepts it as a reality and seeks to remedy it in the most infinite but lawful way possible. Have you ever read Dune? Or Warhammer 40,000? I hate to get all sci-fi here, but sometimes I find cultural or literary devices unrelated to the Gospel sometimes help us get the picture better. In Dune, Leto Atreides II foresees the future of humanity and all the perils it must cross. He sees extinction, war, sickness, glory, lives upon lives, and more. In the midst of that he sees what he calls the "Golden Path." A thin pathway in the midst of all these end scenarios where humanity perseveres and triumphs. He undertakes great pains, personal sacrifice, and godhood to ensure that humanity follows that path. Likewise in 40k, the godlike Emperor of Mankind, a major psychic, also foresees the future of humankind in the middle of possible extinction scenarios and undertakes efforts to avoid it along this same path. Now, shifting back to the Gospel. Mormonism doesn't define God or reality in the same way mainstream Christianity does. Truth is simply the way things are. Reality is objective and self-evident rather than the result of some creative first cause (well...the materials were caused to be organized by God, but that's something different). In the middle of this comes a Father who understands the moral, physical, biological, chemical, thermodynamic, and all other laws of the universe, along with the a path that complies with each of these whereby others can become as He is. These laws are as fundamental as the law the of gravity. In the temple we learn that there is no other way for humanity to become like their divine Father, and so we have laid before us this "Golden Path." It's not God who makes life short and brutal. It's the laws, self-evident and self-sustaining outside of God, which make life so. What God does is interject and intervene within the context of those laws in and through miracles, including the ultimate miracle of the Atonement, to recapitulate, repair, and triumph over the effects of these laws. In fact, it would be helpful for anyone, including yourself, to undertake a study of Atonement theory, or "what the function of the Atonement is." As an example of how Atonement theory answers questions, I saw a recent reddit post mocking Christ's Atonement saying that he couldn't have really died for our sins because he didn't stay dead. Well, the theory of Christus Victor answers that easily by outlining how Christ coming back was the victory. It was Jesus kicking death and sin in the teeth, saying "ain't gonna keep me down," and lifting up all of humanity with him. This post has been a bit all over the place, but what I hope it conveys is the following: For many of us, it's not just the belief in our religion which keeps us going, it's the function it plays. Reality and its often brutal effects does not dispel the existence of God, nor does it make Him a cruel and heartless being. God within Mormonism operates within rules of existence and reality as well, but has created a Golden Path to mitigate pain where He's able to, heal it where He can, and ultimately help others triumph over it. 1
Popular Post BlueDreams Posted June 19, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, poptart said: Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc. I'm really curious, deep down i think most christians don't believe it. I tend to look at religion as a way to pass on values and keep society/public morality in check, yet i know people who always profess a sincere belief in diety from the church. Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life do any of you truly believe in your religion? Why? Yes. It's one of the things (specifically Jesus and his atonement) I have the fewest doubts on in my life. Why? Because I've experience Christ and his atonement again and again. That's what's healed me from all the cruelty and brutality in a way that nothing has held a candle to in permanent lasting and deep change. I can give a more in depth answer later....but I have to head to work. With luv, BD Edited June 19, 2017 by BlueDreams 5
CV75 Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, poptart said: Go on.... It depends; you can probably identify other conditions you face to take into account. The light shining forth out of darkness is metaphorical. In what ways have you seen it?
clarkgoble Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Religiosity and how much of a focus is on perceived non-social aspects of religion versus the social ones varies tremendously from location to location. I don't think there's any way to easily quantify it. I'd just say that at least in appearance, it seems like social adherence to a religion while disbelieving most components seems much more common in Europe and perhaps in places where the church still forms the central social meeting place. So it's not at all uncommon to have singers in an Anglican church be atheists for instance. Likewise in small towns with a dominant religion often people go to church primarily due to social reasons. But again, I don't think we have a clue about relative numbers. Clearly many people do earnestly believe in their religion though. I'd also say that unless you get into a deep conversation with a person, you don't really know their beliefs or motivations. I don't think I could say much about the beliefs of other people in my ward for instance. And I'm frequently surprised by the big difference of what I believe and how people perceive me.
thesometimesaint Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Being a Christian is pretty taxing. It's mostly about service, sacrifice, and becoming holy. I can't imagine going through all that if I didn't really believe it. The payout would not be worth it. Agreed.
rpn Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 I know that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ lives because of life experiences that have made it clear to me that They know me in each moment, and will help me to the extent They can and still respect my agency and that is good for me. I found out the hard way that living the commandments is infinitely easier than not doing so, no matter how difficult or useless or naive or [insert any other discouraging adj.] others think those commandments to be.
Jane_Doe Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, poptart said: Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc. I'm really curious, deep down i think most christians don't believe it. I tend to look at religion as a way to pass on values and keep society/public morality in check, yet i know people who always profess a sincere belief in diety from the church. Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life do any of you truly believe in your religion? Why? Left by ourselves, life is cruel, brutal, and short. It's part of the reason I do believe in God 100%: seeing through God's eyes and feeling His influence life has sucky moments but it's for Good and growth, and it's not short-- we existed eons before now and will exist eons afterwards. Do I go to church for social reason? No, I'm usually an anti-social person and find many people simply annoying. I go to Church for God. 3
pogi Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, poptart said: I tend to look at religion as a way to pass on values and keep society/public morality in check, yet I know people who always profess a sincere belief in diety from the church. It is only through belief that religion is effective at keeping morality in check. What justification and foundation for morality does religion offer except the religious teachings themselves? If you remove a belief in such teachings, then you are without an anchor to the morality it teaches. I honestly think that you can find a better anchor and justification for morality in secularism if you disbelieve religious principles. Edited June 19, 2017 by pogi
Robert F. Smith Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan said: I'm sure you've heard the old rhyme, "Mary had a little lamb, it grew to be a Sheep and then it joined the Mormon Church and died from lack of Sleep" If you don't believe then why do all these things for your calling, service in the community et al.? Maybe they are obsessive-compulsive? 1
Robert F. Smith Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 22 minutes ago, pogi said: ................................................ I honestly think that you can find a better anchor and justification for morality in secularism if you disbelieve religious principles. Howso? Bertrand Russell hated religion(s), yet admitted that secularism offered no sure foundation for morality. All value systems are subjective. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 2 hours ago, poptart said: ........................................... Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life do any of you truly believe in your religion? Why? Does it all seem so cruel, brutal and nasty when you are eating some carrot cake?
Duncan Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Maybe they are obsessive-compulsive? could be! or some people miss the gospel aspect but like helping out or being seen/egotistical
Robert F. Smith Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 2 hours ago, poptart said: Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc. I'm really curious, deep down i think most christians don't believe it. ................................................ You might want to see the wonderful original graphics on the Atonement published a week or so ago by Book of Mormon Central. “What Did Alma Reveal about the Savior’s Mission? (Alma 7:11–13),” KnoWhy #323, June 7, 2017, online at https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/what-did-alma-reveal-about-the-savior%E2%80%99s-mission . Most Christians probably believe some version of the Atonement, but I am not certain that they really understand it. Yet, without it all is lost.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, Duncan said: could be! or some people miss the gospel aspect but like helping out or being seen/egotistical Maybe they just like to be anxiously engaged in a good cause. Eric Hoffer explained that type rather well in his The True Believer, and in his Passionate State of Mind. People want to feel meaning and purpose in life, and will latch onto nearly anything to find it. Humans are very social beings. 1
Guest Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, poptart said: Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc. I'm really curious, deep down i think most christians don't believe it. I tend to look at religion as a way to pass on values and keep society/public morality in check, yet i know people who always profess a sincere belief in diety from the church. Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life do any of you truly believe in your religion? Why? I do believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and in my Faith. Is this truly a question, or to speak out against our beliefs, or any belief at all? Edited June 19, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee
poptart Posted June 19, 2017 Author Posted June 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I do believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and in my Faith. Is this truly a question, or to speak out against our beliefs, or any belief at all? Genuine question. I started going to a ward again and wow what a difference, everyone really likes eachother. They even allow and invest time/money on non members freely. I've not seen a lot of compassion from people here growing up and in the past 20 years seen Christianity in the states take a nosedive, about the only ones who really show any proof of good living that I've seen are the LDS faithful. I actually felt welcome. Hate to come off as a bitter atheist but as someone who grew up the way i did I've seen a lot horrible religious people. I'm genuinely curious about the mormon church, for one it's nice to know there actually are people who would be that kind, something I've not seen a lot of. 1
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