Christ

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Howso?  Bertrand Russell hated religion(s), yet admitted that secularism offered no sure foundation for morality.  All value systems are subjective.

I agree that they are subjective, but a value system that you actually believe in is more anchoring.  I think there are plenty of secular pragmatic arguments for moral principles which are beneficial to society, and when the well-being and safety of society is protected it plays into the self-interest of the individual.  

My point is that  it is a belief in the reason for morality that is anchoring, if you remove belief in the religious arguments for morality, then you have nothing but secular reason and argument for morality, which is certainly better than nothing.

Edited June 19, 2017 by pogi

[MiserereNobis]

Not only do I believe in Christ and the atonement, but I'm also absolutely in love with Catholic traditions and rituals and morality.  There is no need for the two to be mutually exclusive

ETA: besides, without Christianity, we wouldn't have any of that old-timey gospel music, right Pogi?

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

ETA: besides, without Christianity, we wouldn't have any of that old-timey gospel music, right Pogi?

Can I get an Amen?!!

Even the devil steals his riffs and licks from gospel roots music and teaches them to his minions (Rock and Rollers) in exchange for their souls!  I dare say that every form of popular music today finds at least some of its roots in the gospel. 

[poptart]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Can I get an Amen?!!

Even the devil steals his riffs and licks from gospel roots music and teaches them to his minions (Rock and Rollers) in exchange for their souls!  I dare say that every form of popular music today finds at least some of its roots in the gospel. 

Depends on the music, I don't bother with a lot of the stuff out there, when I think of Christian music this comes to mind.

 

[3DOP]

5 hours ago, poptart said:

Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc.  I'm really curious, deep down i think most christians don't believe it.  I tend to look at religion as a way to pass on values and keep society/public morality in check, yet i know people who always profess a sincere belief in diety from the church.  Considering the cruel, brutal and relatively short nature of life do any of you truly believe in your religion?  Why?

I wrote to somebody else recently, that my religion is stupendous.

The Catholic faith as I perceive it is, if you will, love gone mad, (from our self-centered perspectives). I always say I believe it. The Bible? The atonement? Not primarily. Not first. I believe the Church is Christ's Mystical Body. I do believe the Bible (73 Books), and God's redeeming grace, (as I would rather put it) but only because I believe that God revealed these things to the Church first. At least in my intellect. Of course, I am tempted to unbelief. My problem seems more in the in the will and the imagination. Thankfully, "non-religion" seems unreasonable, even crazy, when I look at it most soberly. Like everybody who would be saved, I have to ignore my wild imagination almost all of the time, and my wounded will some of the time, although it does seem like as I get closer to to the end, I increasingly desire that the very good God be glorified by His creatures. I take consolation in this.

I don't know how "deep down" I believe. It seems like since I am sometimes disobedient to God's commandments, it is probable that my faith is rather shallow. Pray for me poptart. I am saying a prayer for you.

3DOP

[3DOP]

43 minutes ago, poptart said:

Depends on the music, I don't bother with a lot of the stuff out there, when I think of Christian music this comes to mind.

 

St Nicholas du Chardonnet! There is a wonderful story behind how the Society of St. Pius X obtained "ownership" of this church. I know a priest who grew up in this church. Asperges me, Domine hyssopo et  mundabor. Lavabis me, et super nivem de albabor. (after Paschal time) That music is called The Mass of the Angels. There are others for different seasons and occasions. Where in the heck did you find this poptart? No matter. You are hanging around the right places!

Edited June 19, 2017 by 3DOP

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, poptart said:

Depends on the music, I don't bother with a lot of the stuff out there, when I think of Christian music this comes to mind.

I am thinking more of this kind of roots music:

 

etc.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Genuine question.  I started going to a ward again and wow what a difference, everyone really likes eachother.  They even allow and invest time/money on non members freely.  I've not seen a lot of compassion from people here growing up and in the past 20 years seen Christianity in the states take a nosedive,  about the only ones who really show any proof of good living that I've seen are the LDS faithful.   I actually felt welcome.  Hate to come off as a bitter atheist but as someone who grew up the way i did I've seen a lot horrible religious people.  I'm genuinely curious about the mormon church, for one it's nice to know there actually are people who would be that kind, something I've not seen a lot of.

I understand, I did not grow up in the LDS Church. I did see much of people in my Baptist Faith, who were not very Christian, but not all were unfaithful, so to speak. In the South in the 50's, 60's and 70's there were people who professed the be Christian, but were horrible racist, would not let anyone of any other race attend Church with them. Certainly the LDS Church has had many of the same issues, but we have corrected and atoned for this, but even to this day (here in the South) Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's remarks still ring true, "11:00 on Sunday is the most segregated hour of the week". But thankfully, in my home (after my mother remarried, when by bio-father married another woman while still married to my mother and ran off) I had the example of what Christianity should be. I did not leave the Baptist Faith because I did not love those in it, I left because after reading the Book of Mormon, I was converted. I have remain these 38+ years because that testimony has grown. Also because for the lionshare of the members I have known, they live their Faith, and no just give lip service to it. I have also tried to do the same, because I am a true believer in the Atonement of Christ and in the mission of the Church. I bear witness that these things are true, since that was after all your primary question. 

[poptart]

20 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

I wrote to somebody else recently, that my religion is stupendous.

The Catholic faith as I perceive it is, if you will, love gone mad, (from our self-centered perspectives). I always say I believe it. The Bible? The atonement? Not primarily. Not first. I believe the Church is Christ's Mystical Body. I do believe the Bible (73 Books), and God's redeeming grace, (as I would rather put it) but only because I believe that God revealed these things to the Church first. At least in my intellect. Of course, I am tempted to unbelief. My problem seems more in the in the will and the imagination. Thankfully, "non-religion" seems unreasonable, even crazy, when I look at it most soberly. Like everybody who would be saved, I have to ignore my wild imagination almost all of the time, and my wounded will some of the time, although it does seem like as I get closer to to the end, I increasingly desire that the very good God be glorified by His creatures. I take consolation in this.

I don't know how "deep down" I believe. It seems like since I am sometimes disobedient to God's commandments, it is probable that my faith is rather shallow. Pray for me poptart. I am saying a prayer for you.

3DOP

I look at the Catholic church as this, an institution that ment well and still stands because it's one of the best.  Look what they have had to do historically, step in when all hell let loose.  After the empire colapsed and Europe had one invasion after another followed by disease it was the church that stepped in.  When you had heretics spouting nonsnense and poisonous doctorine that harmed the public good you had the council of naecia step in and do the job no one else would, when you had the moors and turks slaughtering christians left and right and knights acting like thugs it was Pope Urban who sent them to the holy land to stop it, or try anyway.  I think its the lebanese christians that can not only trace their roots back to the origonal church, but also the knights templar.  When Boemond and the rest of the first legit crusade went through what was byzantium they stopped at Antioch before heading to Jerusalem, I think the ones in Lebanon are whats left of those christians.  Off topic, I am very much for defending those people and I do believe in Christian unity, we're all in this together or not at all. 

Unfortunatly, the church got too big for their britches, hence why we had people like luther.  The irony, for all the fuss the protestants put up with its Rome thats tossing them a lifeline, and from the looks of it Poland who is now the Churches biggest defender.
I love the church and for me personally thats Christianity, the church militant.  If you believe in the idea of the Crucifiction you realize that someone who owed you nothing gave all for you, shut up and help create his kingdom on earth.  That's also why I didn't get too far with them here, It disgusts me how Catholics here gloss over things like the holy father speaking at congress and cherry picking what they want.  I've seen the poor and different ignored while petty politics ruled the minds of many a catholic, layman and clergy alike.  Personal favorite, how they choose to dislike masons even though Pope Francis told them to back off, cherry picking just like the protestants. 

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am thinking more of this kind of roots music:

 

etc.

I have an image of bugs bunny singing swing low sweet chariot now.....

21 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

St Nicholas du Chardonnet! There is a wonderful story behind how the Society of St. Pius X obtained "ownership" of this church. I know a priest who grew up in this church. Asperges me, Domine hyssopo et  mundabor. Lavabis me, et super nivem de albabor. (after Paschal time) That music is called The Mass of the Angels. There are others for different seasons and occasions. Where in the heck did you find this poptart? No matter. You are hanging around the right places!

I went to the Trinitine Mass in WA, it was awesome.  Granted nothing that fancy but still everything else was the same.  The priest was awesome, would bash materialism every chance he had.  Even told me once when I said I don't feel guilty for some things I should "my son, your opinion/feelings don't matter, you commited a sin in the eyes of God, repent, fess up and knock it off" 

More musical fun.

I've been to temple square and Rome, i'll probably be burned for saying this but o well.  That to me is Christianity, you can feel the piety on the other side of the screen.  Above all else you owe your allegience to diety and you honor him in all you do, that includes his mom.  I don't see a lot of that here in the states sadly and the decline continues.  My hope is someone like Poland helps turn it around. 

[poptart]

6 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I understand, I did not grow up in the LDS Church. I did see much of people in my Baptist Faith, who were not very Christian, but not all were unfaithful, so to speak. In the South in the 50's, 60's and 70's there were people who professed the be Christian, but were horrible racist, would not let anyone of any other race attend Church with them. Certainly the LDS Church has had many of the same issues, but we have corrected and atoned for this, but even to this day (here in the South) Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's remarks still ring true, "11:00 on Sunday is the most segregated hour of the week". But thankfully, in my home (after my mother remarried, when by bio-father married another woman while still married to my mother and ran off) I had the example of what Christianity should be. I did not leave the Baptist Faith because I did not love those in it, I left because after reading the Book of Mormon, I was converted. I have remain these 38+ years because that testimony has grown. Also because for the lionshare of the members I have known, they live their Faith, and no just give lip service to it. I have also tried to do the same, because I am a true believer in the Atonement of Christ and in the mission of the Church. I bear witness that these things are true, since that was after all your primary question. 

Mom went to BYUH and looks nothing like me and yeah it was those people she had to deal with when I was a child.  They were awful, I mean awful.  Also a lot of them were catholic, old school catholic.  My moms first husband cheated on her and when she married my father she didn't wear white.  I see people here wear white on their 3rd, 4th wedding and what not.  When it comes down to it I cannot stand amoral people, they end up causing so much harm to themselves and their children and feel no shame over it.  A friend and I were talking about this, he went to a catholic school in Iowa where they do have the old school values and we've both seen the change over the past 20 years, about the only ones in the states who have stood the test of time is the LDS church.  I've known catholics who thought nothing of dragging their kids through divorce court, the only sincere ones i've met tended to be poles and Hispanics.  Somehow the LDS, even the not so nice ones held it all together hence why I ask about belief.  I hear that phrase I know this to be true and from what i've seen it's the membership that makes it all possible. 

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Can I get an Amen?!!

Even the devil steals his riffs and licks from gospel roots music and teaches them to his minions (Rock and Rollers) in exchange for their souls!  I dare say that every form of popular music today finds at least some of its roots in the gospel. 

Reminds me of the scene from O Brother Where Art Thou where they pick up the guitar playing kid who sold his soul to devil to play.  I love how when the others get baptized, George Clooney says, "well, looks like I'm the only one who remains unaffiliated."

Great film.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree that they are subjective, but a value system that you actually believe in is more anchoring.  I think there are plenty of secular pragmatic arguments for moral principles which are beneficial to society, and when the well-being and safety of society is protected it plays into the self-interest of the individual.  

My point is that  it is a belief in the reason for morality that is anchoring, if you remove belief in the religious arguments for morality, then you have nothing but secular reason and argument for morality, which is certainly better than nothing.

Most of what passes for secular morality is based on inherited, traditional religious values -- which only lasts for about one generation after the actual religion has been jettisoned.  Then naked self-interest begins to take over, and the alpha-males begin to assert themselves, leading to a dog-eat-dog competition to see who will end up at the top of the heap.  The value of women then becomes largely symbolic ostentation, for trophy-wife display.

Then anything and any morality may be implemented, including the extermination of any class or group which is disliked, together with totalitarian dictatorship (which is very efficient).   As demonstrated by the best philosophers, logic and reason are no basis for an ethical or moral system, because any system may be justified through what are really self-serving and circular arguments -- leading to the rabbit hole of pure subjectivity, which you admit is the case.

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, Duncan said:

I'm sure you've heard the old rhyme, "Mary had a little lamb, it grew to be a Sheep and then it joined the Mormon Church and died from lack of Sleep"

No, actually I hadn't but thanks...

except I get my sleep at least...if nothing else...maybe that's because I'm a goat instead....

[Glenn101]

I believe in a literal Christ and in His Atonement and I believe in the Restoration with no apologies.

 

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, halconero said:

Have you ever read Dune? Or Warhammer 40,000? I hate to get all sci-fi here, but sometimes I find cultural or literary devices unrelated to the Gospel sometimes help us get the picture better.

In Dune, Leto Atreides II foresees the future of humanity and all the perils it must cross. He sees extinction, war, sickness, glory, lives upon lives, and more. In the midst of that he sees what he calls the "Golden Path." A thin pathway in the midst of all these end scenarios where humanity perseveres and triumphs. He undertakes great pains, personal sacrifice, and godhood to ensure that humanity follows that path. Likewise in 40k, the godlike Emperor of Mankind, a major psychic, also foresees the future of humankind in the middle of possible extinction scenarios and undertakes efforts to avoid it along this same path.

Now, shifting back to the Gospel. Mormonism doesn't define God or reality in the same way mainstream Christianity does. Truth is simply the way things are. Reality is objective and self-evident rather than the result of some creative first cause (well...the materials were caused to be organized by God, but that's something different). In the middle of this comes a Father who understands the moral, physical, biological, chemical, thermodynamic, and all other laws of the universe, along with the a path that complies with each of these whereby others can become as He is. These laws are as fundamental as the law the of gravity. In the temple we learn that there is no other way for humanity to become like their divine Father, and so we have laid before us this "Golden Path." It's not God who makes life short and brutal. It's the laws, self-evident and self-sustaining outside of God, which make life so. What God does is interject and intervene within the context of those laws in and through miracles, including the ultimate miracle of the Atonement, to recapitulate, repair, and triumph over the effects of these laws. In fact, it would be helpful for anyone, including yourself, to undertake a study of Atonement theory, or "what the function of the Atonement is." As an example of how Atonement theory answers questions, I saw a recent reddit post mocking Christ's Atonement saying that he couldn't have really died for our sins because he didn't stay dead. Well, the theory of Christus Victor answers that easily by outlining how Christ coming back was the victory. It was Jesus kicking death and sin in the teeth, saying "ain't gonna keep me down," and lifting up all of humanity with him.

This post has been a bit all over the place, but what I hope it conveys is the following: For many of us, it's not just the belief in our religion which keeps us going, it's the function it plays. Reality and its often brutal effects does not dispel the existence of God, nor does it make Him a cruel and heartless being. God within Mormonism operates within rules of existence and reality as well, but has created a Golden Path to mitigate pain where He's able to, heal it where He can, and ultimately help others triumph over it.

Be careful here lest you convert him to the Church of Scientology Halcanero....  

Poptart, actually, the cruel, brutal nature of life is what led me back to the Church. I realized there are two types of leaders in the world. Those who use fear and force to keep the "followers" in check, and those who lead in inspiration and love. I realized that Yeshua was the latter  type of leader. He is the force of good against the cruel, cold world. He is my new hero... my exemplar. No more do I fear the cruel brutal world. I do not hide from it. I stick my neck out in places like this forum.

Edited June 20, 2017 by RevTestament

[RevTestament]

38 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Reminds me of the scene from O Brother Where Art Thou where they pick up the guitar playing kid who sold his soul to devil to play.  I love how when the others get baptized, George Clooney says, "well, looks like I'm the only one who remains unaffiliated."

Great film.

Being from the south I can really appreciate this movie. I watched it again this last Christmas vacation... and that is saying something. It is a rare movie I watch more than once. It has great music. It is humorous. We need more movies like it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Mom went to BYUH and looks nothing like me and yeah it was those people she had to deal with when I was a child.  They were awful, I mean awful.  Also a lot of them were catholic, old school catholic.  My moms first husband cheated on her and when she married my father she didn't wear white.  I see people here wear white on their 3rd, 4th wedding and what not.  When it comes down to it I cannot stand amoral people, they end up causing so much harm to themselves and their children and feel no shame over it.  A friend and I were talking about this, he went to a catholic school in Iowa where they do have the old school values and we've both seen the change over the past 20 years, about the only ones in the states who have stood the test of time is the LDS church.  I've known catholics who thought nothing of dragging their kids through divorce court, the only sincere ones i've met tended to be poles and Hispanics.  Somehow the LDS, even the not so nice ones held it all together hence why I ask about belief.  I hear that phrase I know this to be true and from what i've seen it's the membership that makes it all possible. 

I am sorry for your difficulties you have n your youth and problems. You know that White Wedding dressings came into be in large part due o the marriage of Queen Victoria. Before that time, 1st weeding are not it was Snsay best. So it can bout a royal wedding about 150 years. (If memory serves). But indeed marriage vows should be meant when spoken, and obeyed as long as the marriage last, you know . "Death do you Part". 

[poptart]

16 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I am sorry for your difficulties you have n your youth and problems. You know that White Wedding dressings came into be in large part due o the marriage of Queen Victoria. Before that time, 1st weeding are not it was Snsay best. So it can bout a royal wedding about 150 years. (If memory serves). But indeed marriage vows should be meant when spoken, and obeyed as long as the marriage last, you know . "Death do you Part". 

That's life for most people, miserable.  It's disgusting the things people do to each other and even worse when you finally realize they don't care.

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 hours ago, poptart said:

Im curious, how many of you really believe the bible, Christs attonement, etc.

All of it, without reservation or hesitation.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, poptart said:

I started going to a ward again and wow what a difference, everyone really likes eachother.  They even allow and invest time/money on non members freely ... about the only ones who really show any proof of good living that I've seen are the LDS faithful.   I actually felt welcome.

Thank you for sharing this. One of my deeply devout Muslim friends has started attending church with me off and on. He has said almost the exact same things to me. He's from the Middle East, and he said he hardly knew any Muslims there who really believed; it was just culture and tradition for them. His own father is an alcoholic. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Most of what passes for secular morality is based on inherited, traditional religious values -- which only lasts for about one generation after the actual religion has been jettisoned.  Then naked self-interest begins to take over, and the alpha-males begin to assert themselves, leading to a dog-eat-dog competition to see who will end up at the top of the heap.  The value of women then becomes largely symbolic ostentation, for trophy-wife display.

Then anything and any morality may be implemented, including the extermination of any class or group which is disliked, together with totalitarian dictatorship (which is very efficient).   As demonstrated by the best philosophers, logic and reason are no basis for an ethical or moral system, because any system may be justified through what are really self-serving and circular arguments -- leading to the rabbit hole of pure subjectivity, which you admit is the case.

Suffice it to say that there are generations of secularists who have strong personal reasons and beliefs in moral values (inherited from religious values or not).  I strongly believe that these secularists are more anchored in their morals than a disbelieving Christian who denies any spiritual rationale for their inherited spiritual morals, and who has no reason to sustain such morals.  I truly believe that these people could be more morally grounded in secularism than floundering without reason in Christianity. 

Also, Religious morals are no less subjective than secularist morals.

Make no mistake, I am not arguing that secularism is morally supreme.  I am arguing that moral reason can be found in secularism if religious reasons are lost.

I am surprised at your notion that secularists somehow value women less.

 

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, poptart said:

That's life for most people, miserable.  It's disgusting the things people do to each other and even worse when you finally realize they don't care.

You know, I recognize (probably better than most) that there may be medical reasons behind such thinking.
But I can say that if that is your attitude about people and life then I don't think you will be able to understand faith and the atonement.

I believe that a positive attitude is absolutely required to generate faith.  You simply cannot learn to trust God if you think life is horrible all the time.
And I should know, it has been my biggest struggle.  I have a hard time with the trusting side of faith.

Joseph Smith said " “Never be discouraged. . . . If I were sunk in the lowest pit of Nova Scotia, with the Rocky Mountains piled on me, I would hang on, exercise faith, and keep up good courage, and I would come out on top.”

[RevTestament]

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

Suffice it to say that there are generations of secularists who have strong personal reasons and beliefs in moral values (inherited from religious values or not).  I strongly believe that these secularists are more anchored in their morals than a disbelieving Christian who denies any spiritual rationale for their inherited spiritual morals, and who has no reason to sustain such morals.  I truly believe that these people could be more morally grounded in secularism than floundering without reason in Christianity. 

Also, Religious morals are no less subjective than secularist morals.

Make no mistake, I am not arguing that secularism is morally supreme.  I am arguing that moral reason can be found in secularism if religious reasons are lost.

I am surprised at your notion that secularists somehow value women less.

I tend to agree with you somewhat with respect to the secularist philosophers and such, but I believe Robert is speaking in generalizations of a society as a whole. I agree with him to the extent that America is going the secularist route and for most that involves not adopting any replacement philosophy of life and little to no moral system beyond John Lennon's "Imagine" lyrics. This started in the sixties so we have been through one generation and it is increasing exponentially. As I view it, it is rotting America from the inside out. Our colleges have gone nuts. Hence, Poptart's conclusion that the LDS church is about the only haven from it all he can find.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Suffice it to say that there are generations of secularists who have strong personal reasons and beliefs in moral values (inherited from religious values or not).  I strongly believe that these secularists are more anchored in their morals than a disbelieving Christian who denies any spiritual rationale for their inherited spiritual morals, and who has no reason to sustain such morals.  I truly believe that these people could be more morally grounded in secularism than floundering without reason in Christianity. 

Also, Religious morals are no less subjective than secularist morals.

Of course, but we are discussing the difference between traditionally anchored ethical and moral standards and those which are unanchored.  Hypocrisy aside, the jettisoning of traditional morals (which are the heritage of thousands of years of human experience) can go in any direction.  The "brave new world" being offered may seem so wonderful that we forget that the consequences may be tragic (as they are in the former Soviet Union).

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Make no mistake, I am not arguing that secularism is morally supreme.  I am arguing that moral reason can be found in secularism if religious reasons are lost.

Secularism is only a pretense.  The carryover from traditional belief systems is temporary, if unacknowledged, and is too often followed by naked power-grabbing (and all that goes with it).  Secularism is not a moral system any more than pure math and logic are moral systems.  Secular merely means non-religious, and does not carry with it any hint of what you or I might consider high ethical and moral principles.  That is the arena of personal value judgments and is completely subjective.  One might as well adopt the principles of game theory, as many nation-states do now, in deciding what should be done under particular circumstances.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am surprised at your notion that secularists somehow value women less.

Both religionists and secularists can and have placed a low value on women.  The secularists who have been divorced from religion for generations do so largely due to simple power considerations, even though it is stupid to do so (in my opinion).  As Isaac Asimov once pointed out, fully half the geniuses born to humankind are female, and we need as many of those great minds as we can find.  It enriches us all to have women as full participants in society, and it makes our survival more likely as a species.  We can see, however, that many secular nations devalue women,  much to their detriment (Russia, China, USA, etc.).  So why do secularists become so atavistic?  Because they are mammals and have inborn instinctive traits which govern much of their behavior.  Are they aware of those shortcomings (which apply to both men and women)?  No, and that is the root of the problem.  Hopefully we can overcome those genetic limitations in the Celestial Kingdom.  We do not appear able to here and now.

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, but we are discussing the difference between traditionally anchored ethical and moral standards and those which are unanchored.

I think we are talking past each other. I was actually responding to poptart's comment that even though he doesn't really believe in God etc., he finds religion useful as a way to keep morality in check.  I found that odd because unless you believe, religion cannot effectively serve as an anchor for morality.  It is the belief that acts as the binding force to the anchor.  As you say, once that is jettisoned, there is nothing holding you to the morals.  So, I was responding to poptarts turning to religion as a moral anchor more than anything else. 

While secularism itself is not a moral system, there are moral systems and philosophies found within secularism.  I offered secularism as a better alternative for disbelievers because if you can't believe, religion is useless as a moral anchor because there is no reason to obey and live the code.   While secularism is not the ideal choice, there are moral philosophies within secularism which can serve as a better anchor for those who are not bound by religious teachings and principles.  In other words, if you can't believe in religion, it is better to let go and be the best damn secularist you can be - find your own subjective reasons to be a moral person, because it is the subjective reasons that bind us to morality.  Disbelief is useless.  I hope that makes sense.   

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by pogi