The New Face of Mormon Racism

[Calm]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I don't believe the sin of racism should affect one's standing in the Church.

That would lead to questions like:

"Are you racist?"

It's another sin people just need to learn to overcome.

If one is promoting teachings contrary to the gospel and actions that will cause division and harm to others, I think it should indeed affect one's standing.

If one keeps one's ideas to oneself for the most part and tries to fulfills one's callings without intentionally saying things that could cause harm, counseling may be in order (can you imagine the impact on a convert minority family if their first home or visiting teacher was very racist?), but I would not say Church discipline.

[Calm]

"The Church art contests are worldwide, and these too are vehicles of Gentile nations’ cultures being leveraged to share the Gospel."

I am not understanding this comment, could you explain?

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

If one is promoting teachings contrary to the gospel and actions that will cause division and harm to others, I think it should indeed affect one's standing.

If one keeps one's ideas to oneself for the most part and tries to fulfills one's callings without intentionally saying things that could cause harm, counseling may be in order (can you imagine the impact on a convert minority family if their first home or visiting teacher was very racist?), but I would not say Church discipline.

Something bugs me about making the Church the moral police having to judge between various reports of "sins" of members. Maybe I will post more on it later, but the racism you are talking about here is more the overt kind if I read you right, and depends on intent, etc. I think it would open up a terrible can of worms.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Something bugs me about making the Church the moral police having to judge between various reports of "sins" of members. Maybe I will post more on it later, but the racism you are talking about here is more the overt kind if I read you right, and depends on intent, etc. I think it would open up a terrible can of worms.

Yes, think of my position of similar to how politics is handled.  If your political beliefs are made the priority in your life and you become an activist against Church positions because of that, you can get excommunicated (think preaching gay marriage publicly, that the Church is wrong vs. personally believing that, but not discussing it at church and leaving it to God to correct in his own time...assuming you are right) where if gospel principles and community takes priority to your political views, it is generally okay, if not great. (for discipline for racism, perhaps you attempt to get other ward members to oppose the calling of a minority bishop or refuse to accept their authority or you teach that OD2 is false doctrine).

Callings are currently made with awareness of the disabilities people have, including those they impose on themselves by holding on to foolish traditions.  

Do you think a quietly racist (not an activist, but they have made enough comments such as asking to change who they home teach for leaders to recognize there are issues) individual should be given a calling teaching impressionable children knowing that some of their ideas could come out in lesson time?  Or someone who believes wards should be segregated be made EQ president, YW advisor, or ward mission leader?

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I don't believe the sin of racism should affect one's standing in the Church.

That would lead to questions like:

"Are you racist?"

It's another sin people just need to learn to overcome.

I think it's less being racist than how she is in terms of media representing the church. Of course I'd hope the Stake President would give her the opportunity to repent and stop behaving like this in public. But at a certain point is it really that different from what the protests of people pushing for women having the priesthood during conference? They are making a public performance and pushing doctrine counter to the teachings of the church. If Kate Kelly runs into trouble, shouldn't this person?

Again the issue isn't being racist if people are trying to change. Rather it's doing so in the media in a way that is explicitly leading people into apostasy. She's not just being racist but is trying to lead people into racism. That's apostasy.

[Danzo]

I have always thought the best way to reduce racism in the church is to have people work,love, serve and pray together with those that are from different backgrounds. Nothing promotes racism more than segregating and isolating various groups.

One of the drawbacks of having Spanish and other units based on language and culture is that it separates us based on race and ethnicity.   

Recently, our stake dissolved the Spanish branch in the stake and assigned the Spanish speaking members to groups located in the various towns.  I was called as the group leader.  We have a Spanish language Sunday school class and translation is provided via headset for sacrament meeting.  I think that this has generated very positive results.  The Spanish member of our ward have benefited from getting to know the us and serving with the English speaking members.  The English speaking members have also benefited from being able serve with and interact with the Spanish speaking members.   Both groups have had to leave their comfort zones.   I have seen a greater love and understanding from the members.  People don't seem to be as vocal about the "immigrant problem" or the "illegal" problem, even though it is very open and acknowledged that most of the members of the Hispanic group are illegal ( creates issues with youth activities when the parents don't have drivers licenses).  We just had a Hispanic family sealed together in the temple a couple of weeks ago. It was really great going to a Spanish session and seeing the English speaking members of our ward wearing the headsets.  The temple even had to have the closed captioning because there weren't enough headsets for the full Spanish session.  

 

When you love and serve someone, it is impossible see them as anything other than a child of our Heavenly Father.

 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I have always thought the best way to reduce racism in the church is to have people work,love, serve and pray together with those that are from different backgrounds. Nothing promotes racism more than segregating and isolating various groups.

One of the drawbacks of having Spanish and other units based on language and culture is that it separates us based on race and ethnicity.   

Recently, our stake dissolved the Spanish branch in the stake and assigned the Spanish speaking members to groups located in the various towns.  I was called as the group leader.  We have a Spanish language Sunday school class and translation is provided via headset for sacrament meeting.  I think that this has generated very positive results.  The Spanish member of our ward have benefited from getting to know the us and serving with the English speaking members.  The English speaking members have also benefited from being able serve with and interact with the Spanish speaking members.   Both groups have had to leave their comfort zones.   I have seen a greater love and understanding from the members.  People don't seem to be as vocal about the "immigrant problem" or the "illegal" problem, even though it is very open and acknowledged that most of the members of the Hispanic group are illegal ( creates issues with youth activities when the parents don't have drivers licenses).  We just had a Hispanic family sealed together in the temple a couple of weeks ago. It was really great going to a Spanish session and seeing the English speaking members of our ward wearing the headsets.  The temple even had to have the closed captioning because there weren't enough headsets for the full Spanish session.  

 

When you love and serve someone, it is impossible see them as anything other than a child of our Heavenly Father.

 

To me, this is the way to go.  Kudos to your stake.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I have always thought the best way to reduce racism in the church is to have people work,love, serve and pray together with those that are from different backgrounds. Nothing promotes racism more than segregating and isolating various groups.

One of the drawbacks of having Spanish and other units based on language and culture is that it separates us based on race and ethnicity.   

Recently, our stake dissolved the Spanish branch in the stake and assigned the Spanish speaking members to groups located in the various towns.  I was called as the group leader.  We have a Spanish language Sunday school class and translation is provided via headset for sacrament meeting.  I think that this has generated very positive results.  The Spanish member of our ward have benefited from getting to know the us and serving with the English speaking members.  The English speaking members have also benefited from being able serve with and interact with the Spanish speaking members.   Both groups have had to leave their comfort zones.   I have seen a greater love and understanding from the members.  People don't seem to be as vocal about the "immigrant problem" or the "illegal" problem, even though it is very open and acknowledged that most of the members of the Hispanic group are illegal ( creates issues with youth activities when the parents don't have drivers licenses).  We just had a Hispanic family sealed together in the temple a couple of weeks ago. It was really great going to a Spanish session and seeing the English speaking members of our ward wearing the headsets.  The temple even had to have the closed captioning because there weren't enough headsets for the full Spanish session.  

 

When you love and serve someone, it is impossible see them as anything other than a child of our Heavenly Father.

 

This is spot on! Just as the church didn't segregate African American wards back in the days of segregation. This is great! I also believe the church needs to not segregate or I should say, exclude the gay married couples with children. The more you get to know them, the more the blinders come off there too. 

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I have always thought the best way to reduce racism in the church is to have people work,love, serve and pray together with those that are from different backgrounds. Nothing promotes racism more than segregating and isolating various groups.

One of the drawbacks of having Spanish and other units based on language and culture is that it separates us based on race and ethnicity.   

Recently, our stake dissolved the Spanish branch in the stake and assigned the Spanish speaking members to groups located in the various towns.  I was called as the group leader.  We have a Spanish language Sunday school class and translation is provided via headset for sacrament meeting.  I think that this has generated very positive results.  The Spanish member of our ward have benefited from getting to know the us and serving with the English speaking members.  The English speaking members have also benefited from being able serve with and interact with the Spanish speaking members.   Both groups have had to leave their comfort zones.   I have seen a greater love and understanding from the members.  People don't seem to be as vocal about the "immigrant problem" or the "illegal" problem, even though it is very open and acknowledged that most of the members of the Hispanic group are illegal ( creates issues with youth activities when the parents don't have drivers licenses).  We just had a Hispanic family sealed together in the temple a couple of weeks ago. It was really great going to a Spanish session and seeing the English speaking members of our ward wearing the headsets.  The temple even had to have the closed captioning because there weren't enough headsets for the full Spanish session.  

When you love and serve someone, it is impossible see them as anything other than a child of our Heavenly Father.

 

Perhaps technology will someday allow for Sacrament Meetings and classes to have mixed language sessions so that nonEnglish speakers can fully participate, be leaders, etc. without the limitations that imperfect language understanding causes these days.  At this point, everyone would have to have a headset for that to work.  With the universalness of cellphones, running translation through those might work, but likely would lose the attention of kids, however little that is.

At this point though, I wonder how many of these mainstreamed members are called into leadership or teaching positions.  Do you have info on that?

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

"The Church art contests are worldwide, and these too are vehicles of Gentile nations’ cultures being leveraged to share the Gospel."

I am not understanding this comment, could you explain?

https://history.lds.org/article/international-art-competitions-details?lang=eng

“Every three years [beginning in 1987], Latter-day Saint artists from around the world are encouraged to participate in a theme-based competition hosted by the Church History Museum in Salt Lake City. The purpose of this competition is first, to showcase the breadth and diversity of Latter-day Saint artists and, second, to help develop the Church History Museum art collection through purchase awards.”

The section, “Aesthetic diversity and commonality” in a Wikipedia article on Mormon art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_art Of note in this article, “Mormon art does not claim a particular style or aesthetic. Considered a young religion, Mormonism is not quite 200 years old and has primarily expanded in the 20th century, when artistic and cultural freedom concurrently increased. Today, there are more members of the LDS church outside of the United States than within. Accordingly, Mormon art varies widely in style.”

And, “Richard G. Oman, expert on LDS art and curator of acquisitions for the LDS Church History Museum prior to 2010, states …that the church purposefully holds no limitations on LDS artistic style in order to promote stylistic diversity: "The absence of an official liturgical art has kept the Church from directing its artists into specified stylistic traditions. This has been especially conducive to variety in art as the Church has expanded into many different cultures, with differing artistic styles and traditions."

The Gentile nations referred to in the Book or Mormon refer to the European nations of the Apostasy and the nations and people where the Restoration took place (USA, England, etc.). The religious-themed artwork arising during the days of the Apostasy, Reformation and Restoration would reflect the cultures of these Gentile nations, and as time goes on, reflect new cultures in those nations where LDS artists originate. Their creations are subject to cultural expression and are also vehicles for sharing the Gospel message in a culturally appropriate way both with those who relate to the culture and absorb the message and with those who simply appreciate the beauty and the message. As the Church expands into the “isles of the sea” and other places where the “remnants” of the covenant people and the “covenant people” live, their cultures will be reflected in their religious artwork.

As I write this I’m realizing the article only addresses culture and tradition, and not ethnicity or race. Which makes me ask, is it racist for an artist of one ethnicity or race to depict his God as being of a different ethnicity or race when his culture or tradition accepts the distinction?  Likewise, for an artist to depict the race or ethnicity of his God contrary to his culture’s norms?

 

[clarkgoble]

53 minutes ago, Danzo said:

One of the drawbacks of having Spanish and other units based on language and culture is that it separates us based on race and ethnicity.   

I don't think it's clearly on one side or the other. There's definitely the benefits you mention. Yet simultaneously some people find it very hard to adjust to a fairly white suburban culture. Our neighbors who moved in a few years back originally went to our ward but their son was struggling because he didn't feel like he fit in with the youth. They started going to the spanish ward because of that.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I don't believe the sin of racism should affect one's standing in the Church.

That would lead to questions like:

"Are you racist?"

It's another sin people just need to learn to overcome.

I think that if someone is advocating for racism publicly, and publicly saying horrible things about other members of the church who are in good standing, and drawing attention to their membership in the church while they do it, then it absolutely should affect one's standing in the church.  

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that if someone is advocating for racism publicly, and publicly saying horrible things about other members of the church who are in good standing, and drawing attention to their membership in the church while they do it, then it absolutely should affect one's standing in the church.  

The older generation were such racists I'm sad to say. I don't want to say who, but they surrounded me growing up and even after marriage. A few who were related to me. It's got to go. 

[Jeanne]

52 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The older generation were such racists I'm sad to say. I don't want to say who, but they surrounded me growing up and even after marriage. A few who were related to me. It's got to go. 

Oh...I know what you mean..I had to stand in the corner in kindergarten because of it..ugh...had no idea certain words were offensive.  Wish I could give you a rep point

52 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Jeanne

[bluebell]

56 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The older generation were such racists I'm sad to say. I don't want to say who, but they surrounded me growing up and even after marriage. A few who were related to me. It's got to go. 

They were, because it's what they were taught was acceptable.  

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think it's clearly on one side or the other. There's definitely the benefits you mention. Yet simultaneously some people find it very hard to adjust to a fairly white suburban culture. Our neighbors who moved in a few years back originally went to our ward but their son was struggling because he didn't feel like he fit in with the youth. They started going to the spanish ward because of that.

I agree that it can be much more comfortable for both English speaking and Spanish speaking to segregate themselves into different units.  But Segregation has its drawbacks as well. Whether the benefits outweigh the costs is something that will vary according to individual circumstances.  If choice is to segregate into separate units, I believe a strong effort to have as many joint events as possible should be made.   This is especially important for youth and primary.  For the most part, the members of the Spanish units are not planning on returning to their native country. It is quite likely that the Spanish units would become unnecessary for the second and third generations.  I know that all of my LDS Hispanic nieces and nephews have married English speaking spouses and no longer attend Spanish Units (even though they grew up attending Spanish Units). 

If someone is struggling to fit in with the youth, it might be better to address the problem with youth group.  It may be that your Hispanic neighbor is not the only one the youth in your ward didn't make feel welcome. 

I know that I am grateful that the youth and especially the youth leaders of our ward seem to go the extra mile to help the Hispanic youth feel welcome.  They make an extra effort to provide rides to activities.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The older generation were such racists I'm sad to say. I don't want to say who, but they surrounded me growing up and even after marriage. A few who were related to me. It's got to go. 

I know a number in the younger generations who view our generation as quite racist.  I suspect as time passes, our level of racism will be seen to higher and higher by those who come long after us.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[Danzo]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

At this point though, I wonder how many of these mainstreamed members are called into leadership or teaching positions.  Do you have info on that?

One of the boys in our group was just called into the deacons quorum presidency.

We have two of the group that have been called as primary teachers.

The former president of the Spanish branch was called as a councilor in the bishopric (a different ward than the one I attend).  He was also asked to speak at stake conference. His English was very broken and a bit difficult to understand, but everyone I talked to agreed that the spirit was strong. He is a good and faithful priesthood leader. (only been a member for about 10 years).

My wife, who also grew up attending a Spanish Unit after she joined the church at age 13, has had many teaching and leadership callings in English units (primary president, Teacher, Young woman's presidency, etc)

When I lived in Arizona, our bishop at the time had grown up in a Spanish unit.  Some times we would switch to Spanish in ward council since most of the ward council were native speakers or had served Spanish speaking missions.

There can be  a bit of struggle with some Hispanic members (and the English members when they relate to them) but I feel the struggle tends to benefit both the English and the Spanish members when we engage in it. 

 

[Duncan]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I don't believe the sin of racism should affect one's standing in the Church.

That would lead to questions like:

"Are you racist?"

It's another sin people just need to learn to overcome.

what incentive do you think racists need to know in order to overcome it? what message do they need to hear and accept?

[poptart]

This annoys me, no one ever says anything when a heterosexual white male is denied in favor of the flavor of the month minorities for jobs and spots in competitive school programs.  Look at WA, right now a school is shut down claiming racism, except its the white kids who are being shut out. Before anyone calls me out on this i'm not all caucasian, mom went to BYUH and I had to grow up hearing people call her brown trash.  Makes me wonder what will happen to the USA when white people really are the minority.

[Calm]

I am less concerned about youth as they pick up language easier...though feeling awkward at that age can have a huge impact (it is likely why my daughter is completely inactive at 26).  However, adults, especially older adults...we had several immigrants go inactive until they transferred to a ward where there were at least some who spoke their language.  

Many of the older adult  immigrants up in Canada never learned English, but stayed socially within their family groups (I am talking about nonLDS immigrants as there was a high population of Asian immigrants in our area and I got to know lots of kids through the schools; it was pretty much impossible to get immigrant parents and grandparents involved in volunteer work at the schools, though they would come to all the award assemblies, choir and band performances).  The kids usually took less than a year to be fully integrated socially.  

I don't know what it is like here in the States, don't get the chance to meet families as much now kids are out of school and all the health stuff...I would assume kids probably have a slower time of adapting because in Canada it was generally the wealthier and better educated with some English already who were immigrants in our area.  I tutored one girl who was sent over with her younger brother to live with friends for a couple of years just to learn English in an English environment (we are talking 4th grade...can't imagine most American parents sending a young kid off for education reasons)

[Danzo]

16 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what incentive do you think racists need to know in order to overcome it? what message do they need to hear and accept?

Like all sinners, they should be taught faith in the lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism and the gift of the holy ghost.

They need to be taught to  pray for the gift of Charity.

They need to be taught that the worth of soul is great in the sight of God. 

The church, thank goodness allows sinners, to attend.  There isn't a special Jerk repellent to keep these people out.

[clarkgoble]

38 minutes ago, Danzo said:

If someone is struggling to fit in with the youth, it might be better to address the problem with youth group.  It may be that your Hispanic neighbor is not the only one the youth in your ward didn't make feel welcome. 

I agree and I suspect "fitting in" is just a common problem with youth of that age that all wards need to address. But I also think there are real social differences. Like you and the others I ultimately think removing these wards would be beneficial. The main problem is language since there are a surprising number of people who don't speak English well. But I know just on our street there's probably a half dozen families that go to the Spanish ward. (My neighbors are the O'Brians which always cracks me up when I think of them going to the Spanish ward given the name)

While integration ought be the goal, I think we should realize that this is harder than I think we assume.

Edited June 2, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am less concerned about youth as they pick up language easier...though feeling awkward at that age can have a huge impact (it is likely why my daughter is completely inactive at 26).  However, adults, especially older adults...we had several immigrants go inactive until they transferred to a ward where there were at least some who spoke their language.  

Many of the older adult  immigrants up in Canada never learned English, but stayed socially within their family groups (I am talking about nonLDS immigrants as there was a high population of Asian immigrants in our area and I got to know lots of kids through the schools; it was pretty much impossible to get immigrant parents and grandparents involved in volunteer work at the schools, though they would come to all the award assemblies, choir and band performances).  The kids usually took less than a year to be fully integrated socially.  

I don't know what it is like here in the States, don't get the chance to meet families as much now kids are out of school and all the health stuff...I would assume kids probably have a slower time of adapting because in Canada it was generally the wealthier and better educated with some English already who were immigrants in our area.  I tutored one girl who was sent over with her younger brother to live with friends for a couple of years just to learn English in an English environment (we are talking 4th grade...can't imagine most American parents sending a young kid off for education reasons)

 

That is generally the case. The older Spanish speaking adults seem to have a harder time learning English.  The Older English speakers have a harder time learning Spanish.  It is worth the effort for both parties.  Our bishop has started taking a Spanish course so he can better communicate, I don't know how successful he will be, but the Spanish speakers notice and appreciate the effort.

[MiserereNobis]

17 minutes ago, poptart said:

Makes me wonder what will happen to the USA when white people really are the minority.

On the surface this appears to express a very racist sentiment.  Care to elaborate?