The New Face of Mormon Racism

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, poptart said:

This annoys me, no one ever says anything when a heterosexual white male is denied in favor of the flavor of the month minorities for jobs and spots in competitive school programs.  Look at WA, right now a school is shut down claiming racism, except its the white kids who are being shut out. Before anyone calls me out on this i'm not all caucasian, mom went to BYUH and I had to grow up hearing people call her brown trash.  Makes me wonder what will happen to the USA when white people really are the minority.

There will probably be places with pockets of various types of racism and others where there is little.  The areas where whites worked hardest to actually integrate (which to me means letting everyone get involved in setting up programs, etc, not just coming in doing charity work or making others their projects) probably will have the least prejudice towards whites.  The areas where whites didn't do as well will likely have problems if this happens sooner than later.  Whether or not whites are still dominant politically will have a big influence on racism, imo (the more dominance, the more racism imo).

It is several generations in the future, imo, and who knows what global and national dynamics will be going on by then though.

There was very little racism among the elementary level kids up in the Canadian school my kids went to.  What was interesting was in high school, many of the Asian kids started to segregated themselves apparently because their parents talked a lot about how they were superior to the lazy and less intelligent white kids.  The Asian kids I knew laughed about that, but their parents were ones who had worked hard to get them integrated when they were younger, which was often how I got to know them well (room mother for years and tutored math and English) and who tried to establish friendships as well (such as inviting us over for meals).

If kids were left to themselves, it might disappear pretty quickly as integration grows.  But they are not, so who knows.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Danzo said:

 

That is generally the case. The older Spanish speaking adults seem to have a harder time learning English.  The Older English speakers have a harder time learning Spanish.  It is worth the effort for both parties.  Our bishop has started taking a Spanish course so he can better communicate, I don't know how successful he will be, but the Spanish speakers notice and appreciate the effort.

Making the effort made a huge difference, imo.

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I agree and I suspect "fitting in" is just a common problem with youth of that age that all wards need to address. But I also think there are real social differences. Like you and the others I ultimately think removing these wards would be beneficial. The main problem is language since there are a surprising number of people who don't speak English well. But I know just on our street there's probably a half dozen families that go to the Spanish ward. (My neighbors are the O'Brians which always cracks me up when I think of them going to the Spanish ward given the name)

While integration ought be the goal, I think we should realize that this is harder than I think we assume.

It can be very difficult.  I have been intimately involved in it for the past 9 months and have attended both Spanish and English Units for the last 16 years. Sometimes, for some people, a Spanish unit might be better in the short term, but even in these cases, I think we need to realize that in the end the goal should be to have the Units integrated as soon as possible.  The concept of Zion requires us to be one. Both the English and Spanish members will realize the greatest blessings when united. Far too often the Spanish Units are hidden in some corner of the stake where they are left alone and the other members of stake don't have to interact with poor people who speak differently. Since the English never have to interact with people of different races, they can then start blaming all of there problems on those strange brown people. Racism has a chance to develop.  

[poptart]

9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

On the surface this appears to express a very racist sentiment.  Care to elaborate?

stuff like this

http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/threat-closes-evergreen-state-college-amid-high-race-tensions/528732951
 

Just left the state, was too expensive and I had family to help out.  Over the past year the SJW nonsense has just gotten out of hand, and it seems like everyone likes to point their finger at the white hetersexual male and his unchecked privelege.  Don't misunderstand me, didn't mean to come off as racist but I get so annoyed at the race card being played all the time.  I have a simple solution to all of this, we stop being whatever shade of white/off white we appear to be and just be Americans, or better yet human beings. 

[poptart]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

There will probably be places with pockets of various types of racism and others where there is little.  The areas where whites worked hardest to actually integrate (which to me means letting everyone get involved in setting up programs, etc, not just coming in doing charity work or making others their projects) probably will have the least prejudice towards whites.  The areas where whites didn't do as well will likely have problems if this happens sooner than later.  Whether or not whites are still dominant politically will have a big influence on racism, imo (the more dominance, the more racism imo).

It is several generations in the future, imo, and who knows what global and national dynamics will be going on by then though.

There was very little racism among the elementary level kids up in the Canadian school my kids went to.  What was interesting was in high school, many of the Asian kids started to segregated themselves apparently because their parents talked a lot about how they were superior to the lazy and less intelligent white kids.  The Asian kids I knew laughed about that, but their parents were ones who had worked hard to get them integrated when they were younger, which was often how I got to know them well (room mother for years and tutored math and English) and who tried to establish friendships as well (such as inviting us over for meals).

If kids were left to themselves, it might disappear pretty quickly as integration grows.  But they are not, so who knows.

Funny, dated a Japanese who went to HS up there and she said the same thing, the Asian kids would segregate themselves and quite often think they were better than the white kids. 

I grew up poor and saw a lot of bad things and as an adult it took its toll mentally, one thing I did learn is its a bad idea to have ideas like that out in the open.  An old LDS landlord of mine was not really fond of the Chinese in Vancouver and from what I gathered a lot of people feel that sentiment.  When it comes down to it people are mean, spiteful vindictive creatures and given the chance will get revenge the first chance they get.  Even in Seattle there is a growing resentment of Asian immigrants and it will probably keep getting worse. 

[bsjkki]

6 minutes ago, poptart said:

stuff like this

http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/threat-closes-evergreen-state-college-amid-high-race-tensions/528732951
 

Just left the state, was too expensive and I had family to help out.  Over the past year the SJW nonsense has just gotten out of hand, and it seems like everyone likes to point their finger at the white hetersexual male and his unchecked privelege.  Don't misunderstand me, didn't mean to come off as racist but I get so annoyed at the race card being played all the time.  I have a simple solution to all of this, we stop being whatever shade of white/off white we appear to be and just be Americans, or better yet human beings. 

Controversial quote, "“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Controversial quote, "“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

Unfortunately this has never happened anywhere in the States in the last 500 years at least, so the ideal is all well and good, but it is currently impossible to achieve.

At best this can occur in small segments of life, but if access to those small segments is affected by race (and it is for now), discrimination is still occurring. (Think of college submissions that judge solely on test scores, racial treatment currently has an effect of who is getting the highest test scores generally speaking).

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[poptart]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately this has never happened anywhere in the States in the last 500 years at least, so the ideal is all well and good, but it is currently impossible to achieve.

At best this can occur in small segments of life, but if access to those small segments is affected by race (and it is for now), discrimination is still occurring. (Think of college submissions that judge solely on test scores, racial treatment currently has an effect of who is getting the highest test scores generally speaking).

Fun fact, a lot of people lie about their race.  If possible they even say they're gay/bi to get an edge.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, poptart said:

Funny, dated a Japanese who went to HS up there and she said the same thing, the Asian kids would segregate themselves and quite often think they were better than the white kids. 

I grew up poor and saw a lot of bad things and as an adult it took its toll mentally, one thing I did learn is its a bad idea to have ideas like that out in the open.  An old LDS landlord of mine was not really fond of the Chinese in Vancouver and from what I gathered a lot of people feel that sentiment.  When it comes down to it people are mean, spiteful vindictive creatures and given the chance will get revenge the first chance they get.  Even in Seattle there is a growing resentment of Asian immigrants and it will probably keep getting worse. 

And Russians see themselves as the height of culture and resented Americans coming over to tell them how to run businesses with the money they invested and Canadians often see themselves as the least prejudiced of cultures (tell that to older residents of Quebec and the former First Nations who were taken from their homes and placed in schools).

And anyone who refuses to adapt to the group will likely be resented by many in that group.  Human nature.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

Fun fact, a lot of people lie about their race.  If possible they even say they're gay/bi to get an edge.

All depends on where you live and what group privileges you want access to.

I suspect a lot more have lied about not being gay.

[Calm]

The reasoning behind asking a certain group to be absent from campus that day appears to be so as to help those 'left behind' to greater appreciate their impact, not to exclude them or have them feel what it is like to be excluded:

"The idea for the first Day of Absence came from a play of the same name by African American playwright, Douglas Turner Ward. Presented in 1965 as a “reverse minstrel show” (black actors in whiteface), the play is a social commentary on race relations in the U.S., and satirizes the South’s refusal to see African Americans as equal members of the community. In the play, a town wakes up to find all of its African American citizens have disappeared, leaving those left to reflect on the meaning of their community without these essential members.

The Day of Absence, as it was originally known, began in the 1970s when Faculty member Maxine Mimms, inspired by the play, approached administrator Stone Thomas about the idea of joining with other faculty and staff of color in spending a work day away from campus as a grassroots collective action. In the decades following, Day of Absence grew to become an opportunity for all students, faculty and staff at Evergreen to explore and celebrate the richness of our diversity by facilitating conversations about issues of difference. In 1992, Day of Presence was added in order to reunite the college community and honor diversity and unity as a whole campus."

http://www.evergreen.edu/multicultural/day-of-absence-day-of-presence

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[bsjkki]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately this has never happened anywhere in the States in the last 500 years at least, so the ideal is all well and good, but it is currently impossible to achieve.

At best this can occur in small segments of life, but if access to those small segments is affected by race (and it is for now), discrimination is still occurring. (Think of college submissions that judge solely on test scores, racial treatment currently has an effect of who is getting the highest test scores generally speaking).

The Ivy League would be filled with Asians...are the tests designed to give Asians an edge? For now, this minority group is discrimated against. http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21669595-asian-americans-are-united-states-most-successful-minority-they-are-complaining-ever

[poptart]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

All depends on where you live and what group privileges you want access to.

I suspect a lot more have lied about not being gay.

Russians, the height of culture?  Hmm, okay then, I'd have given that prize to the French, Spanish, Germans, English etc.  There's a reason why outside of English the other international languages are Spanish and French. 
Also the food, looove French and Spanish food, doubt Russian cousine comes close but what do I know.

You are absolutly correct, it all depends on where you live.  Thing is, for diversity hires gay people of color can have an edge, and be an HR reps worst nightmare.  Knew someone who kept trying to find a way to fire their senior engineer for taking off for weeks at a time to take care of his partner and yep, he was gay.  Firing him would have resulted in a discrimination lawsuit so fast.

Lol I pulled a fast one at an old job, when the topic of spousal benefits came up I asked about domestic partnerships having the same rights.  After that no one asked if I had a gf/kids etc.  Man I was prepared to have rainbow flags at the desk and play tarzan boy as loud as possible (joking on the last part)

[Calm]

"Look at WA, right now a school is shut down claiming racism, except its the white kids who are being shut out"

The white kids are not being shut out, but are invited to attend scheduled off campus activities just as minority groups have done in past years.

It does appear as if the threat came from a white racist POV ("communist scumbag") so not an example of reverse racism as far as I can tell.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The Ivy League would be filled with Asians...

So it would hardly be an example of how to go about removing racism, correct?

[poptart]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

"Look at WA, right now a school is shut down claiming racism, except its the white kids who are being shut out"

The white kids are not being shut out, but are invited to attend scheduled off campus activities just as minority groups have done in past years.

It does appear as if the threat came from a white racist POV ("communist scumbag") so not an example of reverse racism as far as I can tell.

Thats not what i'm hearing from my buddies in Tacoma right now...

 

 

[bsjkki]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

So it would hardly be an example of how to go about removing racism, correct?

It's an example of the quest for diversity that leads to discrimination against a minority group. I went back and read the whole thread. Some of the comments from the original post are real annoyances. If I was a very smart WOC and people assumed I got into BYU only because of my color, I would find that really annoying but it's the affirmative action policies that lead to the false conclusion. My daughter graduated with an awesome job making a lot of money in a male dominated field. She would often hear the comment she only got her job because she was a woman...really annoying...she is awesome at her job and hired on with a company she had worked for for two years. These false assumptions are fueled by the quest for diversity where people are not judged only by their abilities but by their race/orientation/gender.I think diversity is important but If people are not being judged solely on their merit, resentments, false assumptions, and discrimination will continue to exist. 

It is difficult to remedy the abuses of the past with a quest for a color blind future (which should be the ideal..right?)

 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

It's an example of the quest for diversity that leads to discrimination against a minority group. I went back and read the whole thread. Some of the comments from the original post are real annoyances. If I was a very smart WOC and people assumed I got into BYU only because of my color, I would find that really annoying but it's the affirmative action policies that lead to the false conclusion. My daughter graduated with an awesome job making a lot of money in a male dominated field. She would often hear the comment she only got her job because she was a woman...really annoying...she is awesome at her job and hired on with a company she had worked for for two years. These false assumptions are fueled by the quest for diversity where people are not judged only by their abilities but by their race/orientation/gender.I think diversity is important but If people are not being judged solely on their merit, resentments, false assumptions, and discrimination will continue to exist. 

It is difficult to remedy the abuses of the past with a quest for a color blind future (which should be the ideal..right?)

 

The problem comes, imo, from the tendency to judge the individual by the group they are in...thus the assumption of affirmative action being the cause rather than asking about actual individual history.

I think any assumption that the only reason someone got in was affirmative action and their personal efforts are irrelevant is offensive.  Even with Affirmative Action, people still have to work, make a significant effort.  Some appear to assume AA is a free ride.  What Affirmative Action generally means to me is that they have had to work harder in their community which for whatever reason was not as complementary to developing the skills measured by standardized evaluations as predominant white communities the majority students come from.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[Duncan]

44 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Like all sinners, they should be taught faith in the lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism and the gift of the holy ghost.

They need to be taught to  pray for the gift of Charity.

They need to be taught that the worth of soul is great in the sight of God. 

The church, thank goodness allows sinners, to attend.  There isn't a special Jerk repellent to keep these people out.

that's true but sadly they can be the jerk repellant keeping others out

[Danzo]

Just now, Calm said:

The problem comes, imo, from the tendency to judge the individual by the group they are in...thus the assumption of affirmative action being the cause rather than asking about actual individual history.

I think the bigger problem is our tendency, as humans, to put labels on people. Once there is a label, we can stop finding out about them and make them our enemy, or our friend.  There are all types of labels that we invent to judge people.  Perhaps "racist" is one of those labels.  Once we have applied that label, there is no need to get to know the person better. They  are "Racist", or "Black", or "Illegal", or "Liberal" or "trump Supporters" "Muslim"  or whatever, therefore we know all about them and can safely avoid them and their kind.

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

that's true but sadly they can be the jerk repellant keeping others out

I think it is safe to say that each of us has an opportunity to be the jerk as well as be repelled by the Jerk.

[bsjkki]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

The problem comes, imo, from the tendency to judge the individual by the group they are in...thus the assumption of affirmative action being the cause rather than asking about actual individual history.

Our institutions lump people into groups but I completely agree that as individuals, we should avoid doing the same. 

Having served in a spanish speaking branch--that debate is complex too. Most of our branch was inactive when it was started. We had tremendous growth bringing back inactives and through missionary work because church was held in spanish. The spirit can be felt no matter language is spoken even if the words can not be understood. It is easier for non-English speakers to attend church in their own language and it helped with missionary work. Is it the ideal? Maybe not but it helped our members become active again after feeling discouraged attending english only services.

Edited June 2, 2017 by bsjkki

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I think the bigger problem is our tendency, as humans, to put labels on people. Once there is a label, we can stop finding out about them and make them our enemy, or our friend.... therefore we know all about them and can safely avoid them and their kind.

I think we probably mean more or less the same thing...to me the "label" is the name of the group we classify them as without regard to individual qualities...or if the label is even accurate.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Our institutions lump people into groups but I completely agree that as individuals, we should avoid doing the same. 

Having served in a spanish speaking branch--that debate is complex too. Most of our branch was inactive when it was started. We had tremendous growth bringing back inactives and through missionary work because church was held in spanish. The spirit can be felt no matter language is spoken even if the words can not be understood. It is easier for non-English speakers to attend church in their own language and it helped with missionary work. Is it the ideal? Maybe not but it helped our members become active again after feeling discouraged attending english only services.

There is need to categorize in order to help people.  If we spent sufficient effort to understand everyone individually, there would be no resources left to help them.  It is all about appropriateness and balance.

[mfbukowski]

I have always found it fascinating about the emphasis on pioneers while being told that "We have no culture in the church but CHURCH CULTURE."

Yeah, one which deifies the pioneers.   I mean I appreciate the preservation of the gospel despite persecution, but come on already.

The church has recently put out a family history program for kids to find "pioneers in their ancestry" and "missionaries in their ancestry".

I spoke to someone high in the family history leadership about the fact that I did not have pioneers OR missionaries in my family history because all my folks came from Poland in the 1860's and I am the first member.

This expert in genealogy told me that I had not gone back far enough into my great grandfather's brothers and cousins and that if I went back far enough I would find some.

All this was with a straight face, with an attitude of trying to help me- he really had no comprehension what it would be like to not just put your name into the data base and have it all done for you from what people had already entered.

He's a perfectly wonderful man whom I love dearly but he had absolutely no clue whatsoever.  None.  Zero, nada.

I just smiled and said thank you.

I continue to find lost relatives that way but none ever had a prayer of even hearing the name of Joseph Smith much less being a pioneer or a missionary.  For some reason I cannot find any missionary records for Poland in the 1850's.   Can anyone help?

And this is a new program. 

What if I was born in a third world country where there WERE NO records at all?  Where there was essentially no government to even keep records?