The New Face of Mormon Racism

[Calm]

Mfb, Are you sure he doesn't mean the "relative finder"?  That connects you to neighbors, friends, celebrities, etc. through shared ancestors.  You might be the first member in your direct line and their immediate families, but one of your greats might have had another great great grandchild who married someone who was a cousin of a general authority...or some such thing.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calm

[halconero]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Russians, the height of culture?  Hmm, okay then, I'd have given that prize to the French, Spanish, Germans, English etc.  There's a reason why outside of English the other international languages are Spanish and French. 
Also the food, looove French and Spanish food, doubt Russian cousine comes close but what do I know.

This could have absolutely nothing to do with the globally situated British, French and Spanish colonial enterprises of course.

1 hour ago, poptart said:

You are absolutly correct, it all depends on where you live.  Thing is, for diversity hires gay people of color can have an edge, and be an HR reps worst nightmare.  Knew someone who kept trying to find a way to fire their senior engineer for taking off for weeks at a time to take care of his partner and yep, he was gay.  Firing him would have resulted in a discrimination lawsuit so fast.

I love anecdotes.

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Lol I pulled a fast one at an old job, when the topic of spousal benefits came up I asked about domestic partnerships having the same rights.  After that no one asked if I had a gf/kids etc.  Man I was prepared to have rainbow flags at the desk and play tarzan boy as loud as possible (joking on the last part)

Aw, you should have! I have a rainbow sticker on my computer. Realized it was a good idea to help vulnerable clients open up and feel comfortable so I could help them with their immigration issues,

[halconero]

On 2017-06-01 at 5:50 PM, bluebell said:

I think what makes it hard to picture Jesus is that He didn't have a Jewish father.  We know from scripture that he didn't stand out in looks so He had to have looked similar to everyone else to a large extent, but what that means exactly is hard to guess.

 

There's also the fact that Middle Eastern people have phenotypical variation as well. Some could have the typical olive skin, but some could have a skin tone like your typical Ashkenazi individual.

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Mfb, Are you sure he doesn't mean the "relative finder"?  That connects you to neighbors, friends, celebrities, etc. through shared ancestors.  You might be the first member in your direct line and their immediate families, but one of your greats might have had another great great grandchild who married someone who was a cousin of a general authority...or some such thing.

Tried it- relative finder shows 0 returns.  My wife is related to every person on earth, but I am going to change my name to Adam as far as Mormons are concerned.   The first of the breed!

I have some DNA matches at 4th cousin level with people in the databases but so far no documentable connections found.  Also there are many non-members obviously in the DNA databases.  Some of those matches live in the same regions my people are from here in the US, but so far no common ancestors.  And none of those 4th cousins are LDS so far.

Edited June 3, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Los Angeles demographics

Quote

The racial/ethnic/cultural composition of Los Angeles as of the 2005-2009 American Community Survey was as follows: Hispanic or Latino (of any race): 47.5% Non-Hispanic Whites: 29.4% Asian: 10.7%

That was 12 years ago.

It really feels weird to go into Walmart in Utah or any store and see white people.   Here I am often the only one in the store who is white.   There are actually all-white wards in Utah.   I don't think there are ANY here- I have not seen one.

I feel like I am in Europe when I am in Utah- perhaps Scandinavia.

I saw a blond person walking down the street here the other day.  Amazing.  Seriously. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by mfbukowski

[clarkgoble]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It really feels weird to go into Walmart in Utah or any store and see white people.   Here I am often the only one in the store who is white.   There are actually all-white wards in Utah.   I don't think there are ANY here- I have not seen one.

When I got off my mission the only time I saw a majority of white people had been on Sundays. It was really weird going into Smiths the week off my mission in Provo and not seeing a single black person. Fortunately the region is becoming much more racially diverse. The other ward in our meeting house has a black Bishop. While blacks still are a distinct minority here (1.8%) you see many more than you used to. And of course there are a ton of hispanics. Somewhere around 13%. While I don't like diversity for diversity's sake, I think there is a lot of value in getting more diversity in Utah for the church. It helps the members and also is a sign we're doing missionary work better. I'd still like to see many, many more.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Tried it- relative finder shows 0 returns.  My wife is related to every person on earth, but I am going to change my name to Adam as far as Mormons are concerned.   The first of the breed!

I have some DNA matches at 4th cousin level with people in the databases but so far no documentable connections found.  Also there are many non-members obviously in the DNA databases.  Some of those matches live in the same regions my people are from here in the US, but so far no common ancestors.  And none of those 4th cousins are LDS so far.

Wow.  We are just going to have to find an eligible male blond (autocorrect...why wouldn't it allow blood?) relative who my daughter wants to hitch up with to get you tied in on your side.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Calm

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I have always found it fascinating about the emphasis on pioneers while being told that "We have no culture in the church but CHURCH CULTURE."

I've noticed a lot of places still emphasize the pioneers but also emphasize the pioneers of various other groups who well after the trek brought the church to people. That seems like a powerful metaphor especially in places like Africa or the Pacific. It's kind of like we emphasize the American Revolution on the 4th of July but also emphasize everyone who has built up the Republic.

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Wow.  We are just going to have to find an eligible male blond (autocorrect...why wouldn't it allow blood?) relative who my daughter wants to hitch up with to get you tied in on your side.

Too late, my only son married a sweet lifer who has a VERY Mormon name with tons of Mormon relatives.  I mean it is not Smith but might as well be.

So we got that link in place already!   My grandkids can now feel ethnically Mormon.

Don't know if I like that or not....      Being unique is....   well, unique!

 

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I've noticed a lot of places still emphasize the pioneers but also emphasize the pioneers of various other groups who well after the trek brought the church to people. That seems like a powerful metaphor especially in places like Africa or the Pacific. It's kind of like we emphasize the American Revolution on the 4th of July but also emphasize everyone who has built up the Republic.

Yep- I always go to Pioneer Day dressed as myself!

 

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I know a number in the younger generations who view our generation as quite racist.  I suspect as time passes, our level of racism will be seen to higher and higher by those who come long after us.

Now racism seems to be measured by percentage of minorities in the mix compared to the local population. By that standard the Church would be racist since it has a disproportionately high percentage of Gentiles. I just can't go for these equality of result types of standards.

[clarkgoble]

22 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Now racism seems to be measured by percentage of minorities in the mix compared to the local population. By that standard the Church would be racist since it has a disproportionately high percentage of Gentiles. I just can't go for these equality of result types of standards.

I think the definition of racism has definitely changed, but a lot of practices that were once normative are now seen as racist such as many jokes or terms. So while there is definitely some overreach and equivocation, I think there's also a lot of practices that are problematic. I confess that even as a Gen-X I cringe when I hear people older than me normally talking race. Just lots of offensive things said without understanding why they are offensive. Especially stereotypes or jokes related to stereotypes. And anger when called out. (And I'm not talking about little things)

I'll grant you that the tendency to conflate structural racism (meaning unequal treatment by structures regardless of intent) with behavioral racism is unfortunate. And I tend to disagree strongly with the tendency to cast racism through a lens of power relations which tends to absolve many groups of overtly racist behavior. However even with all that there's a still a lot of racism that needs fixed.

Edited June 3, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Tried it- relative finder shows 0 returns.  My wife is related to every person on earth, but I am going to change my name to Adam as far as Mormons are concerned.   The first of the breed!

I have some DNA matches at 4th cousin level with people in the databases but so far no documentable connections found.  Also there are many non-members obviously in the DNA databases.  Some of those matches live in the same regions my people are from here in the US, but so far no common ancestors.  And none of those 4th cousins are LDS so far.

Just means you actually get to do genealogy. I know many people who would be very jealous. It seems like for many members these days most of the work is fixing errors when people do their genealogy and screw up all the correct data that's already there. My dad has taken to doing genealogy work for family friends because everything is done as far as records will go. (With permission I should add)

It was weird as all this was done when I was a kid yet my patriarchal blessing said I'd do a bunch of genealogy work. I couldn't figure out how it could be done. Then one day my dad discovered thousands of names he thought had been submitted never had been processed. I was at BYU at the time (1995) and got to submit them. I remember going in when the library opened with the disk my dad had sent me. The computer was still chugging when the library closed. The Cardston temple for the next 5 years just did the names I'd submitted. I got to do the temple work for about 3 generations back. It was kind of cool and and example of how things get fulfilled in unexpected ways.

As an aside I also submitted a long list of famous scientists and mathematicians like Gauss who'd never had their work done. This was just before it was made against the rules to do it for people you weren't directly related to. It was kind of cool going through the temple for Gauss who was a bit of a hero of mine. He'd spent most of his life trying to gain what we'd call a testimony. He was a really devout religious person who helped a lot of women in science at a time that was frowned upon. Yet he just had problems having religious experiences. It was a pretty spiritual experience for me.

Edited June 3, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Bob Crockett]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Los Angeles demographics

That was 12 years ago.

It really feels weird to go into Walmart in Utah or any store and see white people.   Here I am often the only one in the store who is white.   There are actually all-white wards in Utah.   I don't think there are ANY here- I have not seen one.

I feel like I am in Europe when I am in Utah- perhaps Scandinavia.

I saw a blond person walking down the street here the other day.  Amazing.  Seriously. 

However, I went to a Guns N Roses concert at Dodger Stadium last year and remarked to friends that I hadn't seen more white persons in one place before in my life.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Bob Crockett

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

However, I went to a Guns N Roses concert at Dodger Stadium last year and remarked to friends that I hadn't seen more white persons in one place before in my life.

Aha! The culture within.

Musical segregation.  I remember in the '60's I did not like "soul" music- I was into folk and acid rock, the more metallic the better.  Now I love the same music I did not appreciate then, it is like a new discovery of stuff I remember well but did not see from the same perspective.

But on the other hand, if you are an Angeleno, the very fact that you made the comment makes my point that diversity is what you are totally used to.

Of course if you are a Utahn, then I will have to figure out another explanation to make myself right anyway.

 

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

However, I went to a Guns N Roses concert at Dodger Stadium last year and remarked to friends that I hadn't seen more white persons in one place before in my life.

Did you notice license plates on the cars to see if most were from out of state?

[Avatar4321]

there is an old face to Mormon racism?

perhaps we should just obey the words of our Savior and love and forgive others no matter what their shortcomings

 

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Just means you actually get to do genealogy. I know many people who would be very jealous. It seems like for many members these days most of the work is fixing errors when people do their genealogy and screw up all the correct data that's already there. My dad has taken to doing genealogy work for family friends because everything is done as far as records will go. (With permission I should add)

It was weird as all this was done when I was a kid yet my patriarchal blessing said I'd do a bunch of genealogy work. I couldn't figure out how it could be done. Then one day my dad discovered thousands of names he thought had been submitted never had been processed. I was at BYU at the time (1995) and got to submit them. I remember going in when the library opened with the disk my dad had sent me. The computer was still chugging when the library closed. The Cardston temple for the next 5 years just did the names I'd submitted. I got to do the temple work for about 3 generations back. It was kind of cool and and example of how things get fulfilled in unexpected ways.

As an aside I also submitted a long list of famous scientists and mathematicians like Gauss who'd never had their work done. This was just before it was made against the rules to do it for people you weren't directly related to. It was kind of cool going through the temple for Gauss who was a bit of a hero of mine. He'd spent most of his life trying to gain what we'd call a testimony. He was a really devout religious person who helped a lot of women in science at a time that was frowned upon. Yet he just had problems having religious experiences. It was a pretty spiritual experience for me.

I really do genealogy.  I am griping about pioneer worship.

I get to do stuff most Mormons don't even know about, just for folks as close as my great grandparents.   I dig through microfiche shots of parish records from 150 years ago from Polish parishes on the east coast.  First you have to know where they lived which is not that hard.  Then you get to figure out what parish they probably attended- and then you get to find out if there are records from that time available anywhere.

Then you pour over those records looking for surnames in Polish script but fortunately most of the text is in Latin which I can read.

The world I research in has no indexing, and the records if they exist may still be in tiny hamlets in Poland if they survived the Communist era.   Good luck in finding the records- if they exist they were moved to regional churches 50 or 100 miles from where they originated.  We are talking big books hand written on now yellowed paper or sometimes vellum.

It's fun but hard to get a lot of names.

It's not like typing in your name on ancestry and having it all appear magically before you.   Most Mormons have no clue.

The point is all these genealogy programs for youth are nice, if you are of pioneer heritage.  If you are not, you are left out.

If I were a kid, I could not participate other than asking for some holy cards my parents might have in a drawer somewhere.  When those were exhausted I would be left out unless I knew how to order and pay for renting microfiche records etc.

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

there is an old face to Mormon racism?

perhaps we should just obey the words of our Savior and love and forgive others no matter what their shortcomings

 

I think the reference was probably to Blacks and the Priesthood

[Avatar4321]

21 hours ago, bsjkki said:

It's an example of the quest for diversity that leads to discrimination against a minority group. I went back and read the whole thread. Some of the comments from the original post are real annoyances. If I was a very smart WOC and people assumed I got into BYU only because of my color, I would find that really annoying but it's the affirmative action policies that lead to the false conclusion. My daughter graduated with an awesome job making a lot of money in a male dominated field. She would often hear the comment she only got her job because she was a woman...really annoying...she is awesome at her job and hired on with a company she had worked for for two years. These false assumptions are fueled by the quest for diversity where people are not judged only by their abilities but by their race/orientation/gender.I think diversity is important but If people are not being judged solely on their merit, resentments, false assumptions, and discrimination will continue to exist. 

It is difficult to remedy the abuses of the past with a quest for a color blind future (which should be the ideal..right?)

 

not as difficult as we make it. Jesus did the heavy lifting. We just need to repent and forgive

[mnn727]

Quote

At least one aspect of the Church is more like a hospital or an aid station, provided for those who are ill and want to get well, where one can get an infusion of spiritual nutrition and a supply of sustaining water in order to keep on climbing.

 

Jeffrey R Holland

[BlueDreams]

On 6/2/2017 at 11:53 AM, Danzo said:

I have always thought the best way to reduce racism in the church is to have people work,love, serve and pray together with those that are from different backgrounds. Nothing promotes racism more than segregating and isolating various groups.

One of the drawbacks of having Spanish and other units based on language and culture is that it separates us based on race and ethnicity.   

Recently, our stake dissolved the Spanish branch in the stake and assigned the Spanish speaking members to groups located in the various towns.  I was called as the group leader.  We have a Spanish language Sunday school class and translation is provided via headset for sacrament meeting.  I think that this has generated very positive results.  The Spanish member of our ward have benefited from getting to know the us and serving with the English speaking members.  The English speaking members have also benefited from being able serve with and interact with the Spanish speaking members.   Both groups have had to leave their comfort zones.   I have seen a greater love and understanding from the members.  People don't seem to be as vocal about the "immigrant problem" or the "illegal" problem, even though it is very open and acknowledged that most of the members of the Hispanic group are illegal ( creates issues with youth activities when the parents don't have drivers licenses).  We just had a Hispanic family sealed together in the temple a couple of weeks ago. It was really great going to a Spanish session and seeing the English speaking members of our ward wearing the headsets.  The temple even had to have the closed captioning because there weren't enough headsets for the full Spanish session.  

 

When you love and serve someone, it is impossible see them as anything other than a child of our Heavenly Father.

 

I agree that in the long run there will be a time where there will be no more manner of "-ites." But I am concerned that the effort in integration can be premature. This is something I've thought a lot about scripturally and particularly since I've attended a number of specialty wards (specifically, Native American ward, Polynesian ward, I believe. A Spanish and Portuguese on a handful of occasions. Oh and Genesis, though it's not a ward really). In UT in my seas of white people this helped me and others in a number of ways. For myself personally it was what I'd describe as a breath of fresh air (ok really I'd tell people I'd go so I wouldn't go crazy...but that was definitely an exaggeration). But it was simply an ease and comfort that sometimes I really needed. I get ge need to learn and grow and that that comes by brush up against each other. But that is every day for me. Every day. And in school particularly where I took a bunch of social issues classes and ended up being the expert go-to minority in every one of them. Sometimes it was a deep reprieve to go to church and heal in a specialty ward in a way I couldn't at a normal one. Since I usually go to singles wards, I especially appreciated an immediate sense of community connection, since boundaries weren't a thing and the brown world is pretty small in UT (though growing). I'm less pressed now and don't go to my usual specialty ward for a very specific unrelated issue...but I miss it and have thought about attending with my roommate to a Polynesian ward once a month again. And I really enjoy my ward now. Love my bishop and the people. But again something sometimes I just need a specific hospital that day for my spiritual healing. 

For others there's concerns about minority outreach and callings. Your stake has integrated well and that's wonderful. But those results can't be garunteed for all and because it would still entail a white majority, minority concerns and needs can be forgotten, unknown, and/or misunderstood. There's a tendency to have reduced opportunity for leadership callings. There's a tendency of isolation...though rarely meant. There can be insensitivities. And where I was at and for the people I've known in UT, the culture shock can just be painful to swallow. I had one friend who had done student and specialty wards, got married, and went to a family ward up in a more well-to-do area. She didn't make it a day before trying to find a Spanish ward. Not because she couldn't speak english, but because she couldn't stomach what was being peddled over the pulpit. I'm super nervous about attending a regular UT ward one day. I know it'll happen, but I already have contingency plans, to make it work. This includes attending Genesis. 

I've mentioned this before, but I see specialty wards as what happened with the people of Ammon. They were given a distinctive place within Nephite lands. There they became a way station for varying people who had special backgrounds that would have been otherwise difficult to come to the gospel otherwise. That's specialty wards to a tee.  At least the ones I've been to. 

 

Time for my flight to take off!

With luv,

BD 

[BlueDreams]

On 6/2/2017 at 6:48 PM, mfbukowski said:

What if I was born in a third world country where there WERE NO records at all?  Where there was essentially no government to even keep records?

You have a permanent trump card for not doing it . For reals though. When this comes up and I start to feel like I should probably do something, I point out that my dad's side came from an area that lost in a civil war and had a tendency towards oral histories anyways. That I basically need to fly half way cross the world or get an expert to see if there's anything there.

my mom's side of course is that pioneer stock and has work that spans several centuries. So it feels like everyone who's been apart of the Church for a few generations is probably my distant relative. 

 

With luv,

BD 

[mikegriffith1]

In most cases, people treat you according to how you act. Respect is a two-way street. If you want to be treated with respect, be respectful. When you display an attitude of entitlement and seem intent on seeing insult where none was intended, people will probably view you negatively and will not treat you the way they treat people who conduct themselves in a respectful, credible manner.

We had a black member in our racially diverse ward who expected the Church to pay for his airfare to SLC to see General Conference. He asked the bishop for two admission tickets to General Conference for him and his wife. When the bishop gave him his tickets, the brother asked about his flight arrangements. The bishop explained that it was up to members to arrange for their transportation. Long story short, the black member made it known far and wide that the bishop's refusal to use fast offering funds to pay for his air travel was racist and discriminatory, and he left the Church over the matter.

My experience is that race has little to do with how people act or how they are treated. Rather, it is a matter of the "traditions of their fathers," i.e., the attitudes, beliefs, and worldview that people learn from their parents and peers. When you are taught from early childhood that you're a victim, that this or that people are out to get you, that you are entitled to other people's money, that society "owes" you a huge debt, etc., etc., you are probably going to fulfill your own prophecy.

I have noticed a big difference between blacks born and raised in America and blacks who came here recently from Africa. There are, of course, some exceptions. Getting back to the account of the black brother who believed he was the victim of racism because the bishop wouldn't pay for his airfare to SLC, the black African members in our ward had no sympathy for his attitude and thought it was embarrassing.

And I'll say one more thing: The most overt racists I've met have been black. I've met some white racists too, along with a few Latino ones, but the worst ones I've encountered have been black.

Edited June 4, 2017 by mikegriffith1

[thesometimesaint]

SEE http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/politics/56449431-90/percent-utah-population-2012.html.csp