The New Face of Mormon Racism

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, mikegriffith1 said:

In most cases, people treat you according to how you act. Respect is a two-way street. If you want to be treated with respect, be respectful. When you display an attitude of entitlement and seem intent on seeing insult where none was intended, people will probably view you negatively and will not treat you the way they treat people who conduct themselves in a respectful, credible manner.

We had a black member in our racially diverse ward who expected the Church to pay for his airfare to SLC to see General Conference. He asked the bishop for two admission tickets to General Conference for him and his wife. When the bishop gave him his tickets, the brother asked about his flight arrangements. The bishop explained that it was up to members to arrange for their transportation. Long story short, the black member made it known far and wide that the bishop's refusal to use fast offering funds to pay for his air travel was racist and discriminatory, and he left the Church over the matter.

My experience is that race has little to do with how people act or how they are treated. Rather, it is a matter of the "traditions of their fathers," i.e., the attitudes, beliefs, and worldview that people learn from their parents and peers. When you are taught from early childhood that you're a victim, that this or that people are out to get you, that you are entitled to other people's money, that society "owes" you a huge debt, etc., etc., you are probably going to fulfill your own prophecy.

I have noticed a big difference between blacks born and raised in America and blacks who came here recently from Africa. There are, of course, some exceptions. Getting back to the account of the black brother who believed he was the victim of racism because the bishop wouldn't pay for his airfare to SLC, the black African members in our ward had no sympathy for his attitude and thought it was embarrassing.

And I'll say one more thing: The most overt racists I've met have been black. I've met some white racists too, along with a few Latino ones, but the worst ones I've encountered have been black.

To be fair and accurate most African-americans would find him ridiculous. This isn't indicative of some cultural phenomenon. Just an idiot. 

There are distinctions between africans and african-americans.  Sure. I would state an easy example of people my age who are AA as having parents that grew up during the civil rights movement while my father was growing up in a civil war. The self-selection also means that people who make it here from Africa are extremely tenacious. My father's immigration story sounds like something from out of the 19th century. It included an education that entailed walking to a nearby city to work the fields there to then walk home on the weekends to work the compound lands there. Then saving every penny to come here for school and coming here basically broke. Then living the first bit in a warehouse's upper room with no real bathroom or kitchen....just literally a room with a crap bed in it. While dealing with being about one of probably 15 africans in UT at the time (minimal exaggeration here...that may actually be too high). While managing the side-effects of his childhood from some of the vague stories I get (at one point in his childhood he definitely had PTSD from what he states....you just "got over it" there). And doing other things a little more crazy like marrying for a green card for a year. This also leads to severe problems. All of these steps easily have others who fell out or weren't even given a chance because of the circumstances involved. But the ones who are going to show up in a ward building on another continent are more likely to be stories of survivors and fighters. 

AA's have differing concerns depending the regions they lived in. Some of them can be very difficult and stem from generations of severe oppression. I'll agree that there is baggage that comes from the "traditions of their fathers," if their fathers also very much include the oppressive rulings and practices of white forefathers that led to serious community and relational strains for several generations. Such a relationship leads to different concerns and problems. Either way I think pointing out this one nut as somehow representing something more endemic in the AA community is overreaching if not stereotyping. I have never met a man like that.   

On issues of group racism. Having access to varying groups, I'd say it more correct to say that racism comes in different flavors from varying backgrounds. I cannot say that I follow your observations on this. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

" I have never met a man like that."

I have met someone like that, a white woman.  I highly doubt that kind of attitude is attached to race or gender and is more a personality type (very simplified, they can only see the world in a very self centered way).

Edited June 5, 2017 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

On 6/2/2017 at 5:02 PM, bsjkki said:

It's an example of the quest for diversity that leads to discrimination against a minority group. I went back and read the whole thread. Some of the comments from the original post are real annoyances. If I was a very smart WOC and people assumed I got into BYU only because of my color, I would find that really annoying but it's the affirmative action policies that lead to the false conclusion. My daughter graduated with an awesome job making a lot of money in a male dominated field. She would often hear the comment she only got her job because she was a woman...really annoying...she is awesome at her job and hired on with a company she had worked for for two years. These false assumptions are fueled by the quest for diversity where people are not judged only by their abilities but by their race/orientation/gender.I think diversity is important but If people are not being judged solely on their merit, resentments, false assumptions, and discrimination will continue to exist. 

It is difficult to remedy the abuses of the past with a quest for a color blind future (which should be the ideal..right?)

 

No, I think it's moreso the false assumptions about HOW affirmative action policies even work or what the scope of diversity outreach even takes that leads to the false conclusion. For example I was watching a show that talked about the assumptions that white students were less likely to receive private scholarships for school because their race. It's a common misconception based on the number of race/gender/minority scholarships that are visible. What was actually found in the numbers were that white students were still 40% more likely to receive this form of aid than minorities. 

I know that my heritage played a role in my acceptance to at least my grad program. But it wasn't the biggest factor or the most important. And in a sense, diversity is a form of merit, particularly in that program. 

I don't know if I want a color blind society. My favorite social experiences in my life have come where there were a plurality of cultures where each experience and background were held as valuable to the whole. It's only happened a handful of times in my life, but I loved them. This wasn't about blindness, but equity and valuing. So those experiences were shared and were actively used to help shape the group and others. It went well past the usual ways where I see people "experiencing" diversity that often stops at platitudes and cultural cook-offs. But in how they worked together, the sharing in ideas and traditions, and how the group would work and grow. We're not there yet. We're not all that close in most places, to be honest. 

 

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

" I have never met a man like that."

I have met someone like that, a white woman.  I highly doubt that kind of attitude is attached to race or gender and is more a personality type (can only see the world in a very self centered way).

True. I've met several self-centered entitled brats of all shades and genders. Selfishness is truly colorblind  

[MiserereNobis]

10 hours ago, mikegriffith1 said:

My experience is that race has little to do with how people act or how they are treated. Rather, it is a matter of the "traditions of their fathers," i.e., the attitudes, beliefs, and worldview that people learn from their parents and peers. When you are taught from early childhood that you're a victim, that this or that people are out to get you, that you are entitled to other people's money, that society "owes" you a huge debt, etc., etc., you are probably going to fulfill your own prophecy.

So, you've never seen racism...?  That's a telling indictment of your critical observation skills.

Also, I find it interesting that you talk about "traditions of their fathers" and focus on minority groups and don't discuss the massive tradition in America of looking at blacks as less than human.  It's even in the US constitution...

10 hours ago, mikegriffith1 said:

I have noticed a big difference between blacks born and raised in America and blacks who came here recently from Africa.

Could it be that the historical experiences of blacks in America and blacks in Africa are different?  Tell me how you would feel about America and her ideas of freedom, liberty, equality under law, if your direct ancestors had been enslaved for 200 years and then made 3rd class citizens for another 100 years after that and then viewed with distrust and judgment up to the present day?

[thesometimesaint]

There is nothing I can do about the past, except to learn from it and don't repeat its mistakes.

[Danzo]

On 6/4/2017 at 9:39 AM, BlueDreams said:

. . . There's a tendency of isolation...though rarely meant. There can be insensitivities. And where I was at and for the people I've known in UT, the culture shock can just be painful to swallow. I had one friend who had done student and specialty wards, got married, and went to a family ward up in a more well-to-do area. She didn't make it a day before trying to find a Spanish ward. Not because she couldn't speak english, but because she couldn't stomach what was being peddled over the pulpit. I'm super nervous about attending a regular UT ward one day. I know it'll happen, but I already have contingency plans, to make it work. This includes attending Genesis. 

 

Wouldn't separation and segregation increase the tendency of isolation?  It has been my sad experience that when there is a special unit for an ethnic group, it tends to make the rest of the stake whiter as a result.  I am often saddened by how, as a result these members don't know anyone else.  I remember vividly one youth coordination meeting where someone said something like "I didn't know he was a member and he sits next to me in class"  I also have had a big problem trying to convince (unsuccessful) the ward youth dance standards people that their dress code for their dances were based on culture, not modesty. A person could get kicked out of the dance for wearing the clothing they just went to the temple in.

I think these types of problems can be greatly reduced if people just had the chance to interact with others who are different from them.  

Perhaps that the reason the family ward in the more "well to do area" was peddling stuff that couldn't be stomached over the pulpit. Is because they live in a bubble where they don't have to interact with masses. Having people ditch the ward probably increases the problem.

Its so much easier to develop racist attitudes when you don't ever have to interact with someone different.

 

[BlueDreams]

On 6/5/2017 at 11:51 AM, Danzo said:

Wouldn't separation and segregation increase the tendency of isolation?  It has been my sad experience that when there is a special unit for an ethnic group, it tends to make the rest of the stake whiter as a result.  I am often saddened by how, as a result these members don't know anyone else.  I remember vividly one youth coordination meeting where someone said something like "I didn't know he was a member and he sits next to me in class"  I also have had a big problem trying to convince (unsuccessful) the ward youth dance standards people that their dress code for their dances were based on culture, not modesty. A person could get kicked out of the dance for wearing the clothing they just went to the temple in.

I think these types of problems can be greatly reduced if people just had the chance to interact with others who are different from them.  

Perhaps that the reason the family ward in the more "well to do area" was peddling stuff that couldn't be stomached over the pulpit. Is because they live in a bubble where they don't have to interact with masses. Having people ditch the ward probably increases the problem.

Its so much easier to develop racist attitudes when you don't ever have to interact with someone different.

 

It's not necessarily segregation since attending a specialty ward is not compulsory.  If you're a minority with one of these wards in your area it isn't mandatory or even absolutely expected that you attend. Also not realizing someone in the same class as you isn't mormon can happen without specialty wards available. It's the nature of wards. I've had that happen more than once growing up.

I think that there are costs for everything and at the moment in most areas that there are specialty wards it's simply not the best option. The scenarios that you mention mean that the minorities are the ones who will be taking most of the cost in this. I don't mean this to mean that the white people or english speaker in the wards won't have moments of discomfort in learning to get together or having their preconceptions challenged. But in order for that to happen it means that the minorities often take the brunt of this in first hand experiences. I don't know if i'm explaining this well or even what it's like. I've done this before in different avenues. Mostly school and roommates (though at least half of my roommates have been minorities themselves...not on purpose most of the time...I found it odd though that it would). I liked doing it and often would purposely place myself in situations that would allow for that sort of dialogue to occur. But it can take tolls. Like the first time that I had a kid talk in class about how his parents wouldn't be okay with him dating a minority. I wasn't interested in the dude....but it made me hyper aware of my skin tone.  I still have this nagging voice in my head as I date (or try to) about it. Or having slight comments all the time about things like black lives matter around the same time that someone was shot by the cops blocks away from the suburban neighborhood my black brother is growing up in. Or carefully brokering my words so that I can speak my truth without turning off/offending my white peers. Or getting weird and uncomfortable comments about my skin and hair and beauty and race(s) and whatever else.  Or biting my tongue with other insensitive comments that find their way in at the weirdest times. And even when it is good and productive, still having to teach and teach and share and share the landscape of a minority world. 

And that's before we talk about culture shock. Because I don't experience that as much in a white world/ward. I'm half white. I'm a part of it. Many of my brown friends experienced it far far more. I had a very intense class in my master's programs about race and gender. It was really good....but I realized near the close that for a lot of my peers this was something that they would come and pick up intermittently at best. There would be times that it may play a bigger role. But for the most part, it was a class, it was a lesson, and it was at times a paradigm shift. For me, it was my life, it was my experience, it was my future, and it had pieces of stories for many that I loved. 

Bridging the gap is more than just intermingling. It can help, but it's not an absolute solution. Sometimes it just changes the dynamics of isolation...where the minorities get to feel the brunt of it. Not just in small cultural taboos, but in larger sacrifices such as gospel choirs, addressing cultural specific concerns, and hemming words. 

Some days, I just want some balm of gilead. My friend that I mentioned just wanted a place to feel at home and to be able to give her children a value structure closer to her own in a community. I wish I could have given my other sister a place where she had greater cultural avenues of experience so that the cultural ignorance she experienced as a teen hadn't had such a great effect. I am nervous as heck about (hopefully) raising kids here in UT in this sea of white (though the growing diversity is comforting). I don't want to be someone's lesson manual for life on how to overcome racial, class, and cultural ignorance. I've lucked out with having some very good friends that I can vent this to. I'm privileged in being half-white and having an intimate connection to the majority white LDS experience. But I recognize this and I'm not willing to insist something happen for others that sometimes I don't even want for myself.

Problems may be greatly reduced. But other problems may also be greatly added. I'm not saying this won't one day be the goal. But in a lot of areas that goal is premature and the negative side-effects would more largely fall on the minority members backs.

 

With luv,

BD 

[Rajah Manchou]

Viral Post Shows White Jesus Crashing Mormon Couple’s Engagement Photos
 

[RevTestament]

30 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Viral Post Shows White Jesus Crashing Mormon Couple’s Engagement Photos
 

10 of Johnny Depp's dabloons that the author of that article, David McAfee sluiced his idea from this very thread. He even has Goble's picture of the realistic Jesus.

[Tacenda]

http://www.sltrib.com/home/5371962-155/39-years-later-priesthood-ban-is?fullpage=1

My niece follows these two LDS women. She feels strongly that there is racism in the church, maybe since she adopted two African American children, and has moved across the country and doesn't want to return to Utah from it. I've not witnessed it, say in my ward area, but she's seen it apparently.

[RevTestament]

30 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.sltrib.com/home/5371962-155/39-years-later-priesthood-ban-is?fullpage=1

My niece follows these two LDS women. She feels strongly that there is racism in the church, maybe since she adopted two African American children, and has moved across the country and doesn't want to return to Utah from it. I've not witnessed it, say in my ward area, but she's seen it apparently.

In my ward prior to splitting a couple adopted two African Children. As far as I could tell they were treated like everyone else, but I never discussed the issue with their parents. They seemed quite happy and well-adjusted. This is in Utah county, but more rural areas may still harbor some racist attitudes. 

[Danzo]

13 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

It's not necessarily segregation since attending a specialty ward is not compulsory.  If you're a minority with one of these wards in your area it isn't mandatory or even absolutely expected that you attend. Also not realizing someone in the same class as you isn't mormon can happen without specialty wards available. It's the nature of wards. I've had that happen more than once growing up.

I think that there are costs for everything and at the moment in most areas that there are specialty wards it's simply not the best option. The scenarios that you mention mean that the minorities are the ones who will be taking most of the cost in this. I don't mean this to mean that the white people or english speaker in the wards won't have moments of discomfort in learning to get together or having their preconceptions challenged. But in order for that to happen it means that the minorities often take the brunt of this in first hand experiences. I don't know if i'm explaining this well or even what it's like. I've done this before in different avenues. Mostly school and roommates (though at least half of my roommates have been minorities themselves...not on purpose most of the time...I found it odd though that it would). I liked doing it and often would purposely place myself in situations that would allow for that sort of dialogue to occur. But it can take tolls. Like the first time that I had a kid talk in class about how his parents wouldn't be okay with him dating a minority. I wasn't interested in the dude....but it made me hyper aware of my skin tone.  I still have this nagging voice in my head as I date (or try to) about it. Or having slight comments all the time about things like black lives matter around the same time that someone was shot by the cops blocks away from the suburban neighborhood my black brother is growing up in. Or carefully brokering my words so that I can speak my truth without turning off/offending my white peers. Or getting weird and uncomfortable comments about my skin and hair and beauty and race(s) and whatever else.  Or biting my tongue with other insensitive comments that find their way in at the weirdest times. And even when it is good and productive, still having to teach and teach and share and share the landscape of a minority world. 

And that's before we talk about culture shock. Because I don't experience that as much in a white world/ward. I'm half white. I'm a part of it. Many of my brown friends experienced it far far more. I had a very intense class in my master's programs about race and gender. It was really good....but I realized near the close that for a lot of my peers this was something that they would come and pick up intermittently at best. There would be times that it may play a bigger role. But for the most part, it was a class, it was a lesson, and it was at times a paradigm shift. For me, it was my life, it was my experience, it was my future, and it had pieces of stories for many that I loved. 

Bridging the gap is more than just intermingling. It can help, but it's not an absolute solution. Sometimes it just changes the dynamics of isolation...where the minorities get to feel the brunt of it. Not just in small cultural taboos, but in larger sacrifices such as gospel choirs, addressing cultural specific concerns, and hemming words. 

Some days, I just want some balm of gilead. My friend that I mentioned just wanted a place to feel at home and to be able to give her children a value structure closer to her own in a community. I wish I could have given my other sister a place where she had greater cultural avenues of experience so that the cultural ignorance she experienced as a teen hadn't had such a great effect. I am nervous as heck about (hopefully) raising kids here in UT in this sea of white (though the growing diversity is comforting). I don't want to be someone's lesson manual for life on how to overcome racial, class, and cultural ignorance. I've lucked out with having some very good friends that I can vent this to. I'm privileged in being half-white and having an intimate connection to the majority white LDS experience. But I recognize this and I'm not willing to insist something happen for others that sometimes I don't even want for myself.

Problems may be greatly reduced. But other problems may also be greatly added. I'm not saying this won't one day be the goal. But in a lot of areas that goal is premature and the negative side-effects would more largely fall on the minority members backs.

 

With luv,

BD 

Thank you for your comments.  I don't think segregation has to be compulsory for it to be segregation.  It is the natural tendency (or natural man if you want to call it that) for people to seek their own.   My experience (which probably differs from your own) is that often there is a big expectation that members of the ethnicity attend "their" Unit.  I have often had to have a big struggle when someone chooses not to attend "their" ward or "their" group.  I remember one such struggle a few years ago when I was attending a Spanish unit with my family.  I was a youth leader and one of the youth was bringing her "white" boyfriend to church with her.  The missionaries assigned to the unit didn't want to teach him because he wasn't "Hispanic" (the missionaries were both american so language wasn't a problem).  I asked the kid if he would be interested in the missionary lessons, and he said he was. I had to literally bring the missionaries to a room with this guy and tell them to teach him the first lesson at church.  The boy was eventually baptized, but it was a struggle to convince the missionaries that it wasn't against the rules to teach the gospel to someone who wasn't in their assigned ethnic group.  

Your experience with having people in class (at least at the primary and secondary school levels) that you didn't know were LDS seems like it might be a Utah or Mormon corridor thing.  In my experience, wards usually cover several schools and even with high school, when sometimes the high school district covers more than one ward, people know who is in their class because they attend seminary together.

My experience with ethnic units in the church (at least in my area) is that the groups tend to consist mainly of recent converts and recent arrivals in the country. For this reason, the programs of the church are not administered very well or consistently.  Most of the faithful members will leave the ethnic units as soon as they realize there is a better church program (usually closer to where they live).  This leaves the units staffed by people who are less experienced and the problem with units gets worse.  

One Interesting thing I have observed in my travels abroad is that having ethnic, or specialty units seems to be an american phenomena. In other countries I have seen many ethnicities mingle together at church, from many different countries.  When I have attended church in areas where I was the ethnic and linguistic minority (once recently I believe I was the only white person present), I have felt nothing but love an acceptance from the members.  I realize that that may not always be case here, but I know that it can be the case.  I have seen it happen and look forward to the day when we can see each other as children of our heavenly father.  It won't happen naturally, it will take effort from all parties involved, but i think the result will be worth the effort.

[thesometimesaint]

In the US the LDS are segregated more by Zip Code than ethnicity. 

[BlueDreams]

15 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Thank you for your comments.  I don't think segregation has to be compulsory for it to be segregation.  It is the natural tendency (or natural man if you want to call it that) for people to seek their own.   My experience (which probably differs from your own) is that often there is a big expectation that members of the ethnicity attend "their" Unit.  I have often had to have a big struggle when someone chooses not to attend "their" ward or "their" group.  I remember one such struggle a few years ago when I was attending a Spanish unit with my family.  I was a youth leader and one of the youth was bringing her "white" boyfriend to church with her.  The missionaries assigned to the unit didn't want to teach him because he wasn't "Hispanic" (the missionaries were both american so language wasn't a problem).  I asked the kid if he would be interested in the missionary lessons, and he said he was. I had to literally bring the missionaries to a room with this guy and tell them to teach him the first lesson at church.  The boy was eventually baptized, but it was a struggle to convince the missionaries that it wasn't against the rules to teach the gospel to someone who wasn't in their assigned ethnic group.  

I still disagree with the use of segregation.

I've been to several minority wards, mostly in UT. I haven't gotten the sense that they had struggling programs. They were also wards, for that matter. Depending the ward, many were newbs to the US (though that is definitely not the case for the Native American ward). Missionaries can be a little territorial about who they teach. I saw that when two sisters who spoke mostly spanish and weren't super active wanted the english missionaries to teach their kids. It would end with interesting dynamic of my companion teaching a little bit more the kids, while I and the mothers would end up talking mostly in spanglish about what was being taught. In rhetrospect, I don't know if that was the best dynamic. But the reverse would have probably also run into it's own share of problems. I'm not saying that there aren't problems that may come up. Of course there are. But that what you're proposing could also lead to problems. Some of which would entail losing people in church for a while, particularly in areas where the dynamics leave them as one or two people in an entire area in said minority groups and minority experiences remaining marginalized.  Until that can be better mitigated, I don't see the need for specialty wards going away. 

 

Quote

 

Your experience with having people in class (at least at the primary and secondary school levels) that you didn't know were LDS seems like it might be a Utah or Mormon corridor thing.  In my experience, wards usually cover several schools and even with high school, when sometimes the high school district covers more than one ward, people know who is in their class because they attend seminary together. 

My experience with ethnic units in the church (at least in my area) is that the groups tend to consist mainly of recent converts and recent arrivals in the country. For this reason, the programs of the church are not administered very well or consistently.  Most of the faithful members will leave the ethnic units as soon as they realize there is a better church program (usually closer to where they live).  This leaves the units staffed by people who are less experienced and the problem with units gets worse.  

 

No, the times I was thinking of were in VA and TX. I've only really lived in UT as an adult, sans 2 years when I was 8 and 9 (we moved a lot). It was just the right balance of good amount of members in the area with large school districts. I had a friend who married a guy from our hometown (both active LDS) who never knew each other in high school....even though all of their friend mutually knew them. In UT I'm more likely to assume you're a member.

Quote

One Interesting thing I have observed in my travels abroad is that having ethnic, or specialty units seems to be an american phenomena. In other countries I have seen many ethnicities mingle together at church, from many different countries.  When I have attended church in areas where I was the ethnic and linguistic minority (once recently I believe I was the only white person present), I have felt nothing but love an acceptance from the members.  I realize that that may not always be case here, but I know that it can be the case.  I have seen it happen and look forward to the day when we can see each other as children of our heavenly father.  It won't happen naturally, it will take effort from all parties involved, but i think the result will be worth the effort.

 

Yeah, I could see that. I think US dynamics may warrant this in some respects moreso than other areas of the world. But I can't really say, because the only place I've gone to church that was outside the US was in Mexico where I was the only non-mexican minus the missionaries there. In other areas there's more equity in starting out. Most will not be 3rd or 4th or 8th generation members. And the few that are are far more balanced out. They're all starting out new which means there's less reticence to incorporate other cultural experiences with their own. There's less rigidity about cultural norms. In minority settings, I generally don't feel being a (different) minority as much as I do, say southern UT or some such. This doesn't meant that the people can be kind. And I can't put my finger on why....but there's something that feels welcoming and open to my experience no matter the ethnic minority group. At the same time, I've had a couple of white fold who were in minority-majority settings describe discomfort. But I can't tell if that's just because they're not used to it or because their experience isn't as easy to slip into as it is me. 

 

BAck to work...

With luv,

BD

[Danzo]

56 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I still disagree with the use of segregation.

I've been to several minority wards, mostly in UT. I haven't gotten the sense that they had struggling programs. They were also wards, for that matter. Depending the ward, many were newbs to the US (though that is definitely not the case for the Native American ward). Missionaries can be a little territorial about who they teach. I saw that when two sisters who spoke mostly spanish and weren't super active wanted the english missionaries to teach their kids. It would end with interesting dynamic of my companion teaching a little bit more the kids, while I and the mothers would end up talking mostly in spanglish about what was being taught. In rhetrospect, I don't know if that was the best dynamic. But the reverse would have probably also run into it's own share of problems. I'm not saying that there aren't problems that may come up. Of course there are. But that what you're proposing could also lead to problems. Some of which would entail losing people in church for a while, particularly in areas where the dynamics leave them as one or two people in an entire area in said minority groups and minority experiences remaining marginalized.  Until that can be better mitigated, I don't see the need for specialty wards going away. 

 

No, the times I was thinking of were in VA and TX. I've only really lived in UT as an adult, sans 2 years when I was 8 and 9 (we moved a lot). It was just the right balance of good amount of members in the area with large school districts. I had a friend who married a guy from our hometown (both active LDS) who never knew each other in high school....even though all of their friend mutually knew them. In UT I'm more likely to assume you're a member.

Yeah, I could see that. I think US dynamics may warrant this in some respects moreso than other areas of the world. But I can't really say, because the only place I've gone to church that was outside the US was in Mexico where I was the only non-mexican minus the missionaries there. In other areas there's more equity in starting out. Most will not be 3rd or 4th or 8th generation members. And the few that are are far more balanced out. They're all starting out new which means there's less reticence to incorporate other cultural experiences with their own. There's less rigidity about cultural norms. In minority settings, I generally don't feel being a (different) minority as much as I do, say southern UT or some such. This doesn't meant that the people can be kind. And I can't put my finger on why....but there's something that feels welcoming and open to my experience no matter the ethnic minority group. At the same time, I've had a couple of white fold who were in minority-majority settings describe discomfort. But I can't tell if that's just because they're not used to it or because their experience isn't as easy to slip into as it is me. 

 

BAck to work...

With luv,

BD

Well it looks like your experiences have been different that mine. I suspect if I had your experiences and you had mine, our positions on this issue might be reversed. I guess being in a mixed race/ethnicity marriage and having a mixed race family sometimes puts me in a position where I have to be in both sides.  Sometimes we have been a white family in a Hispanic Unit and sometimes we have been a Hispanic family in a white Unit. All I know is that I can feel the spirit and the love in both places.  And both places are full of people like me who are a work in progress.

It might be that in some cases Integration is better and in some cases the opportunity to attend with your own culture might be the better course.  Its a good thing that leaders can receive inspiration that is specific to the local situation that might be different than in another area.  The church should be run by the spirit and not out of a handbook.

 

[BlueDreams]

8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Well it looks like your experiences have been different that mine. I suspect if I had your experiences and you had mine, our positions on this issue might be reversed. I guess being in a mixed race/ethnicity marriage and having a mixed race family sometimes puts me in a position where I have to be in both sides.  Sometimes we have been a white family in a Hispanic Unit and sometimes we have been a Hispanic family in a white Unit. All I know is that I can feel the spirit and the love in both places.  And both places are full of people like me who are a work in progress.

In someways yes and someways no. I also am in a mixed race family. Part of that mix is Hispanic. I feel the Spirit plenty in my majority white wards and love my current one. But I've loved and felt something balming in some of the minority wards I've attended as well. So there's plenty we have in common  

 

Quote

might be that in some cases Integration is better and in some cases the opportunity to attend with your own culture might be the better course.  Its a good thing that leaders can receive inspiration that is specific to the local situation that might be different than in another area.  The church should be run by the spirit and not out of a handbook.

 

Agreed. 

 

With luv,

BD 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

In the US the LDS are segregated more by Zip Code than ethnicity. 

This is very true.  I've been a member for 30+ years and have lived in multiple wards in four different states and my ward now is the first ward where I've ever had a black ward member.  And there's just him.

I have been a part of wards with Mexicans and native americans, because those ethnicities are pretty common in the states where i've lived, but white people were still the majority.  

[Duncan]

Just now, bluebell said:

This is very true.  I've been a member for 30+ years and have lived in multiple wards in four different states and my ward now is the first ward where I've ever had a black ward member.  And there's just him.

I have been a part of wards with Mexicans and native americans, because those ethnicities are pretty common in the states where i've lived, but white people were still the majority.  

even on your mission?! 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

even on your mission?! 

I wasn't even thinking about my mission but as far as i can remember, yes!  Northern California, in the areas where i served, did not have a lot of black people.  I remember one black guy (who was dating on of our investigators) and that's all.  

[Duncan]

Just now, bluebell said:

I wasn't even thinking about my mission but as far as i can remember, yes!  Northern California, in the areas where i served, did not have a lot of black people.  I remember one black guy (who was dating on of our investigators) and that's all.  

Gadzooks! my second baptism was a Black man and he was concerned about being black in the Church but there was this family that came on and off and they held a party for him and invited us and all their black LDS friends and it was seriously the best party of my mission! hahahahhaa! 

[clarkgoble]

15 hours ago, RevTestament said:

10 of Johnny Depp's dabloons that the author of that article, David McAfee sluiced his idea from this very thread. He even has Goble's picture of the realistic Jesus.

They mentioned the art issue I brought up over at T&S last week too. 

An other story at the trib related to that story was suggestions by black members on solving the issues. They brought up some of the same suggestions I'd made that were dismissed by a surprising number of people.

Edited June 7, 2017 by clarkgoble

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

They mentioned the art issue I brought up over at T&S last week too. 

An other story at the trib related to that story was suggestions by black members on solving the issues. They brought up some of the same suggestions I'd made that were dismissed by a surprising number of people.

Maybe that David McAfee guy has taken a liking to you and is shadowing you Clark... Maybe you should copyright yourself...  

If it happens again, maybe your own article in Patheos would be appropriate...

[clarkgoble]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Maybe that David McAfee guy has taken a liking to you and is shadowing you Clark... Maybe you should copyright yourself...  

If it happens again, maybe your own article in Patheos would be appropriate...

Patheos is just blogs aren't they? I have to admit I'm getting a tad tired of blogging at T&S. So many of the regulars have gotten swamped. So if anyone wants to submit an article for review, let me know. We might post it as a guest post.

[RevTestament]

On 6/7/2017 at 10:38 PM, clarkgoble said:

Patheos is just blogs aren't they? I have to admit I'm getting a tad tired of blogging at T&S. So many of the regulars have gotten swamped. So if anyone wants to submit an article for review, let me know. We might post it as a guest post.

I'm not sure if Patheos is only Blogs. They have a "Mormon Channel." Dan Peterson posts stuff there. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2017/01/first-presidency-muhammad.html