JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: I quoted you the current teaching on the topic which states that murderers can be forgiven. And, this whole thread is about how Hitler, a murderer, has had his ordinances performed. Unless or until the church comes out saying that it was done counter to temple policy (and they certainly might), those two references should handle your CFR. Not really. Joseph Fielding Smith was very specific regarding his teachings and instructions of passing over names of murderers and that we are not to perform their ordinances. So as far as we know, that part of the policy hasn't changed? That's what my CFR was for (any statements correcting what JFS directed us to do or not do when we come upon a name of a known murderder). 1
cacheman Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) I believe the church has stated that the vicarious ordinances of Hitler were nullified. If so, what does that mean, and how does it occur? -cacheman Found a link to the letter: Edited February 22, 2017 by cacheman added a link 2
Jane_Doe Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Is it ok to question? Of course you can question. No one contested that. 43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I'm sincerely surprised that the believers here haven't questioned this correctness of doing this proxy work or felt embarrassed or felt indignation and concern over the negative light that is now going to be cast over the church because of someone performed Hitler's proxy work. Again, why should we be embarrassed for acknowledging the full power of the Atonement? 43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I can honestly say that even at my most dedicated entrenched point as a member of the church this action would have embarrassed me and I would have stood up and publically questioned it and denounced it as completely inappropriate and pushed for some action on the part of the 1st presidency to undo the work. Why nerf Christ's power so? 43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I honestly don't understand why so many here are accepting of this. Why is there no outcry? Because Christ's power is something to celebrate in! 43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Maybe you aren't the people that I thought you were...if the general consensus of board members is approval instead of indignation...I've misjudged you. ??? You thought us people to be to nerf Christ??? 43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: The critics of the church are already having a field day with this...meme's are popping up on the Reddit board of Hitler in temple clothes and an Nazi armband proclaiming him as the newest member of the Mormon church And why did this take 20+ years to come to complain about it?
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, cacheman said: I believe the church has stated that the vicarious ordinances of Hitler were nullified. If so, what does that mean, and how does it occur? -cacheman Found a link to the letter: Interesting. Thanks for posting this! Have any ordinances been performed for Hitler since they were nullified, do you know?
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 29 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: And why did this take 20+ years to come to complain about it? Maybe because he just learned of it? Same with people just learning about troubling details from further back in church history. Are they not allowed to discuss them or ask questions just because it's from the past? 1
saemo Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 46 minutes ago, bluebell said: I really have no idea what you are talking about. It wasn't rhetorical and i have no problem with you answering. I wasn't critical that you answered, i was critical of your answer. You should be able to see the difference and not take it personally. I haven't treated you with any disrespect. All i've done is explain, using the scriptures, why i found your answer invalid or unconvincing. Any answer us going to be viewed by you as a criticism, and so, not an answer to you. Meaning there is no answer that you would accept. Of of course you laid a personal insult on me. I'm not pretending that you didn't.
stemelbow Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) I'm embarrassed someone's embarrassed by this embarrassment. I think i'm easily embarrassed though. I'd say it's likely whoever printed out Hitler's name and walked it through the temple getting it all checked off and stuff, did so as a joke to see if it would go through. When masses of names come through it's likely no one paid attention. Of course this is old news though. People made a fuss about it and provoked the letter that's been linked. it happened. Don't tell anyone but I've walked through a few doozies myself. Some attempt to make others feel embarrassed because they just show up to the temple and get a name given to them rather than bringing names. The pressure had built up for me so I started bringing in whatever sounded delightful to me, after I ran into dead ends in my own lines. Aristotles Grandpops Cuz got me a few looks but that was about it. I figured surely Aristotle had a grandpop, and surely that dude had a cousin, and it's possible I am related to him seeing as we all likely have a common ancestor in Charlemagne, as we've been told, so it wasn't all in bad faith. Hotchportfellow Sunday from Easter Island circa 1111, worked too. It was likely that island was inhabited and it was likely someone there was a male at that time. So I figured he needed work done too. Relation to me? Well I got all sorts of loose in defining relation in that case. I'm not revealing the real names and peeps I've brought through the temple because some appeared on said list linked to via mormonleaks. Oops. busted. Edited February 22, 2017 by stemelbow
Thinking Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Posthumous resignations from the LDS Church may be done here.
stemelbow Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Thinking said: Posthumous resignations from the LDS Church may be done here. Thanks. I'm going to cover my bases. If being LDS is going to seal me to an eternity in hell, I might as well get posthumously resigned, after I die, just in case.
The Nehor Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 I think he will roast in hell until his worst offense is stoned for. In other words until the Charlie Chaplin mustache becomes fashionable again.
gopher Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 I logged into FamilySearch and found 5 Adolf Hitlers. For all the ordinances in all 5 instances it shows "Not Available" . Same for Eva Braun.
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Church policy has changed. JFS was mistaken to teach that there is more than one unpardonable sin. Where did he state that? He was very specific about not turning names of murderers in or performing saving ordinances for them. But I didn't see where he stated that murder was an unpardonable sin.
Tacenda Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I'm embarrassed someone's embarrassed by this embarrassment. I think i'm easily embarrassed though. I'd say it's likely whoever printed out Hitler's name and walked it through the temple getting it all checked off and stuff, did so as a joke to see if it would go through. When masses of names come through it's likely no one paid attention. Of course this is old news though. People made a fuss about it and provoked the letter that's been linked. it happened. Don't tell anyone but I've walked through a few doozies myself. Some attempt to make others feel embarrassed because they just show up to the temple and get a name given to them rather than bringing names. The pressure had built up for me so I started bringing in whatever sounded delightful to me, after I ran into dead ends in my own lines. Aristotles Grandpops Cuz got me a few looks but that was about it. I figured surely Aristotle had a grandpop, and surely that dude had a cousin, and it's possible I am related to him seeing as we all likely have a common ancestor in Charlemagne, as we've been told, so it wasn't all in bad faith. Hotchportfellow Sunday from Easter Island circa 1111, worked too. It was likely that island was inhabited and it was likely someone there was a male at that time. So I figured he needed work done too. Relation to me? Well I got all sorts of loose in defining relation in that case. I've done ordinances with little information that was given me, that I didn't bring in, it would make me wonder. But I'd think they would figure it out on the other side. Like only one name printed on a slip I was given. Maybe their last name or first name only, and a birth year.
Johnnie Cake Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 44 minutes ago, JulieM said: Interesting. Thanks for posting this! Have any ordinances been performed for Hitler since they were nullified, do you know? Thanks for posting this...it appears that my indignation was appropriate...now I need to ask why others didn't share my indignation? As for this thread, I'm done...think I'll go skiing... cheers Edited February 22, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
stemelbow Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Since the vast majority of people who have lived aren't in any possible way identifiable by us, I ain't concerned about doing the ordinances fro everyone whose name we can verify. But our better bet is we do one large ordinance for everyone who had ever lived, which would include Hitler and call it good. Then we can all be embarrassed, and the work would be done. Hastening my caboose. It'd be done. Another item to save for my when I'm prophet list. 1
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Since the vast majority of people who have lived aren't in any possible way identifiable by us, I ain't concerned about doing the ordinances fro everyone whose name we can verify. But our better bet is we do one large ordinance for everyone who had ever lived, which would include Hitler and call it good. Then we can all be embarrassed, and the work would be done. Joseph Fielding Smith doesn't agree with your suggestion to "do one large ordinance for everyone": "I cannot imagine a murderer like Nero, for example, having the work done for him and being entitled to the blessings of the celestial kingdom along with Isaiah who laid down his life for the truth."
Jane_Doe Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 51 minutes ago, JulieM said: Maybe because he just learned of it? Same with people just learning about troubling details from further back in church history. Are they not allowed to discuss them or ask questions just because it's from the past? Quite possibly. It seems reasonable.
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 35 minutes ago, JulieM said: Not really. Joseph Fielding Smith was very specific regarding his teachings and instructions of passing over names of murderers and that we are not to perform their ordinances. So as far as we know, that part of the policy hasn't changed? That's what my CFR was for (any statements correcting what JFS directed us to do or not do when we come upon a name of a known murderder). but he's dead though right? we have a modern prophet and different policies 1
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Duncan said: but he's dead though right? we have a modern prophet and different policies There hasn't been a change in policy (by any Prophet since JFS or by our living Prophet today). The ordinances were nullified.
MiserereNobis Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Bob Marley's temple work has been done? Right on. Now, can a Mormon who has access with an account (or however that works) check to see if someone has done Jerry Garcia's work? (b. August 1 1942, d. August 9 1995). This Deadhead right here is wondering
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 31 minutes ago, JulieM said: There hasn't been a change in policy (by any Prophet since JFS or by our living Prophet today). The ordinances were nullified. Priesthood keys are powerful things. They can be used to either bind or loose. On this issue I think our only responsibility is to do the ordinance work for everybody, correctly. Those with the keys are the ones to decide whether to bind or loose.
bluebell Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, saemo said: Any answer us going to be viewed by you as a criticism, and so, not an answer to you. Meaning there is no answer that you would accept. Of of course you laid a personal insult on me. I'm not pretending that you didn't. You don't seem to be understanding what i'm saying so I'm not sure there's any reason to keep up the dialogue. I'll just say that I hope all answers to my posts are critical in nature. All that means is that the answers are judging the merit and flaws of the arguments presented. Those are the kinds of posts and replies we should all strive for. As far as i remember i haven't said anything about criticism or viewing any answers as criticism. I'm sorry if you felt personally insulted. That was never my intention. 2
bluebell Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 2 hours ago, cacheman said: I believe the church has stated that the vicarious ordinances of Hitler were nullified. If so, what does that mean, and how does it occur? -cacheman Found a link to the letter: Thanks for posting! If this whole 'hitler's now a mormon!!' thing gets traction in the news I bet the mormon newsroom will release a statement and hopefully they'll include more info.
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: On this issue I think our only responsibility is to do the ordinance work for everybody, correctly. Apparently not, since these ordinances were nullified. Why do you think that was done by the leaders if it was correct to perform them for Hitler? For me, it's evidence that there has been no policy change as some have claimed here (when they were defending the ordinances being done for Hitler). Edited February 22, 2017 by JulieM
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, JulieM said: Apparently not, since these ordinances were nullified. Why do you think that was done by the leaders if it was correct to perform them for Hitler? For me, it's evidence that there has been no policy change as some have claimed here (when they were defending the ordinances being done for Hitler). My next sentence, from what you just quoted from me, answered that question. Our responsibility is to do the work for everybody, correctly, AND THOSE WITH THE KEYS ARE THE ONES TO DECIDE WHETHER TO BIND OR LOOSE.
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