Another Mormon Leak: This one is Damaging to Church Public Image

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I guess what I object to is your use of the pejorative anti-Mormon in this thread and the implied implication that somehow when Mormon's baptize Adolf Hitler it's somehow the fault of those people who expose this fact.

The fault lies in the joy of proclaiming it. 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

All that power, it sounds intoxicating. :/

If your interpretation is true, the Kingdom of Heaven sounds like it's tightly controlled by a bureaucracy. The papers must be signed in triplicate, otherwise God is powerless to step in and make wise judgement? It's the church, not God, that decides who is exalted and who is not?

 

The priesthood in the Church IS the power of God.  And we have that decree on paper as well as in paperless formats.

Come, join with us, and make sure that your name is added to our records.

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

The fault lies in the joy of proclaiming it. 

You assume that someone is finding joy in proclaiming it.  I see no basis for that assumption.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You assume that someone is finding joy in proclaiming it.  I see no basis for that assumption.

Just my experience with this topic as a thread on a number of anti-Mormon websites, again and again. Either way, see it as you will. 

[Ahab]

52 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I guess what I object to is your use of the pejorative anti-Mormon in this thread and the implied implication that somehow when Mormon's baptize Adolf Hitler it's somehow the fault of those people who expose this fact.

No Mormon in his right mind would proclaim that Hitler has been baptized by a Mormon.  We don't baptize and have never baptized any dead person and when we do baptisms FOR the dead we are only baptizing ourselves and offering our own baptisms as a proxy baptism FOR the dead.

The more you talk the more evident it is that you don't really know very much of the truth of "Mormonism".

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The priesthood in the Church IS the power of God.  And we have that decree on paper as well as in paperless formats.

Come, join with us, and make sure that your name is added to our records.

Come, submit your forms in triplicate to the Central Bureaucracy. In 6 to 8 weeks your files will join with our files, and you shall find everlasting joy to your soul in the halls of our cabinet files.

Seriously though, I know that's one possible approach to the gospel, but IMO it's the approach with the LEAST spiritual life in it. 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Come, submit your forms in triplicate to the Central Bureaucracy. In 6 to 8 weeks your files will join with our files, and you shall find everlasting joy to your soul in the halls of our cabinet files.

Seriously though, I know that's one possible approach to the gospel, but IMO it's the approach with the LEAST spiritual life in it. 

Your opinion has been noted in our records.

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

The fault lies in the joy of proclaiming it. 

Did you read my OP?  How exactly can my OP possibly be interpreted as expressing Joy?  Might I also remind you that MD&D Mods allow us to discuss the leaks.  So in your opinion I'm at fault for posting a thread on the leak that has been given approval by board mods, that does not express JOY in the posting but instead expresses my concern that it will embarrass the church?  Ummm... might I suggest that the fault lays with you?

Quote

Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

 

[randy]

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 0:51 AM, JulieM said:

So, if Hitler accepts the gospel in the spirit world, his baptism is a done deal and so are his temple ordinances?  

How is it that he wouldn't have been worthy in life for these ordinances, but because he's dead, it's ok for him to receive them?

People here are posting that these ordinances need to be done in case he chooses to accept them now....but again, why is that ok to perform them for him when it wouldn't have been ok when he lived?

Because "in life" we must act as our own agents when it  comes to the earthly ordinances.  Once we have passed on, and we for whatever reason chose not to act, we are no longer able to act as our own agents.  We need others to stand in for us. But the principles of agency, forgiveness, mercy and JUSTICE will all be meted out in righteousness by the Lord.  Hitler will receive the exact eternal reward his Lord deems fit for him. 

It is not up to us, regardless of how seemingly "obvious" it may appear on the surface and to others..it's not up to us to decide and pass judgement as to what constitutes an "opportunity" in this life, or as has been beautifully said by another poster...we cannot pass judgement upon others regarding their worthiness or their capacity to be redeemed by the Lords Atonement.

It also still needs to be remembered that Hitler and all the "bad guys and gals' will still have their "judgement day", like we all will.  That one may prove itself to be a bit more of a dilemma for them. At the end of the day, as the others have articulated well...we do the work, then we leave it in the Lords most capable and loving hands and judgement.  I am confident that in the end ...all will sort itself out as it should.  No worries...be happy!      Oh, and for the record...no embarrassment here.

Edited February 27, 2017 by randy

[Gray]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

Your opinion has been noted in our records.

Zing! Nice

[cdowis]

9 hours ago, Gray said:

All that power, it sounds intoxicating. :/

It appears that you don't read the scriptures.

Here is one that will set your hair on fire.  Re 3 [21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I also suggest John 17:19-23.

If your interpretation is true, the Kingdom of Heaven sounds like it's tightly controlled by a bureaucracy. The papers must be signed in triplicate, otherwise God is powerless to step in and make wise judgement? It's the church, not God, that decides who is exalted and who is not?

The day will come when you will come to regret mocking God.  Just something to think about.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by cdowis

[Gray]

14 hours ago, cdowis said:

It appears that you don't read the scriptures.

Here is one that will set your hair on fire.  Re 3 [21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I also suggest John 17:19-23.

 

 

You're certainly entitled to your private interpretation of scripture. 

 

14 hours ago, cdowis said:

 

 

 

The day will come when you will come to regret mocking God.  Just something to think about.

Unless you think the bureaucracy gospel is itself God, I don't think I have anything to worry about. I never went in for ecclesiolotry myself. 

[Guest]

On February 27, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

Did you read my OP?  How exactly can my OP possibly be interpreted as expressing Joy?  Might I also remind you that MD&D Mods allow us to discuss the leaks.  So in your opinion I'm at fault for posting a thread on the leak that has been given approval by board mods, that does not express JOY in the posting but instead expresses my concern that it will embarrass the church?  Ummm... might I suggest that the fault lays with you?

 

I was speaking to the topic of the thread. As this is a public message board, most replies are intended to speak to the larger issue and not just to the individual. When I speak to (or reply to) an individual, I will single out, via edit...the comment to which I am speaking. Or I will mention the poster by name. This is why I did not say "you took joy in it", I did not single you out. So please do not be offended. You can let that go...I do not ever sent out to offend anyone intentionally. I do understand that it can happen, but not by choice. I thought I made that clear more than once now...if not my apologies. 

 

[Avatar4321]

On 2/21/2017 at 5:13 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

You are not embarrassed by any of this?  Whoa ok

Why on earth would anyone be embarrassed by any of this?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Why on earth would anyone be embarrassed by any of this?

The implication is that there are some people for whom Jesus did not suffer and are therefore beyond the power of His Atonement. And we know who they are.

 

i have often wondered if the victims of atrocities would find it in their souls to forgive their antagonists and petition God not to hold the offense against them. We certainly have the great Example of this deep level of forgiveness, and we have heard of some who of us were able to do this.

Would it be possible that Hitler....and other monsters, even if their act was to kill only one person...might someday come face to face with the individual Jews, Poles, Czechs, Russians, Hungarians, French, English, American, Dutch, fellow Germans, Canadian, Ukranian, Gypsies, deformed or retarded people, and all the others he murdered and ask each one individually to please forgive him? And they did!? Wouldn't that be something! 

One of the most important steps in 12 Step Addiction Recovery programs is the one in which we make a list of every person we have ever offended or hurt in any way, and then decide that when and where possible we will make amends to them, in other words, ask their forgiveness. My list is long. Many on it have passed on, but I have become willing to ask them to forgive me when the right time comes. I can imagine the long line standing behind Peter to greet me at the gates of heaven when I come up and ask to enter. I'll see so-and-so..."Would you please forgive me?"  "Please, I am so sorry!" "Oh my friend...I have no excuse. Will you forgive the hurt I caused?" And then "Oh, you! I had forgotten. Please forgive me." And on down the line. And then at the end we can say to the Father, relying on the grace of His Son, will You forgive me, too?

I can imagine a time in the eternities, perhaps sooner rather than later, when even the likes of Hitler would come on bended knee before the Father and say"I have hurt many of my btothrrs and sisters. I have begged their forgives. " and then  plead for the mercy of His Son to be extended to him even it is only to cool for a moment (or even hope against hope for eterniity) the fires of guilt raging within, and wonder of wonders, the answer might be Yes.

Do we really want to put limits on the glorious Atonement? Can we tell God he cannot forgive when we are beggars ourselves?

Edited March 1, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On February 26, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Calm said:

But still while they may not know, you know and you choose to act or do not act on the knowledge you have and are judged on that, not on what others may do.

Of course.

 

[saemo]

On 2/22/2017 at 8:31 PM, 3DOP said:

Ouch!

Mormon bludgeon! Thanks a lot for THAT fraternal correction. Wow. Mormon bludgeon! Heh. Okay. Let me be more plain with you and my Mormon friends. I will offer more disagreement whenever I think there is any potential that somebody could benefit from a defense of Catholic doctrine and practice. Not so much lately.   

So...just for the record, I think Mormons worship a different God, and their religion is inspired by Satan, (along with every non-Catholic religion). However nobody is wrong about everything, and I think it would be consistent with a profound belief in the mercy of the God they believe in, if they should feel uneasy about the idea that some forms of villainy are beyond the reach of God's forgiveness.

From my understanding of it, within the traditional LDS framework, it seems difficult to be assured that any villain is beyond God's mercy. I think you might share that view as a fellow Catholic.

I have not knowingly said anything against Catholicism, or any other Christian sect in my only post on this thread which is about whether potential mercy for Hitler is embarrassing. I think it is not embarrassing.  

I have written repeatedly on these pages over the years about St. Francis de Sales' apologetic against Luther and the Protestants who simply ignore I Cor. 15:46. Catholics have a plausible explanation for the expression "baptism for the dead". But holding to a Catholic understanding of the meaning of baptism for the dead, does not make it impossible for the Catholic to judge the consistency of the LDS practice within LDS beliefs.

I think it would be presumptious of LDS faithful, to start judging the worthiness of different classes of sinner as though there are some who can be assumed to be excluded. That was why I took it upon myself to be "the Mormon bludgeon against Christians." If it is the position of "Christians" that it would be embarrassing if any particular person who ever lived was saved by God's grace, then they are not knowledgable Catholic Christians. Based on his embarrassment, Johnny Cake, whatever he believes, does not appear to be closer to the Catholic faith than when he might have been LDS.

If we had the cultural background, life experiences and temptations that a man with the eventual ambition and power Adolf Hitler had, can we know we would have acquitted ourselves better? It seems like it to me, until I plumb the depth of my own soul, where I can find enough darkness to make me hope that there are no limits to God's mercy. It has never been my own innate goodness that has kept me from sin. Lack of opportunity and God's grace can account for a fairly well-hidden heart that is nonetheless quite ugly. All that is good belongs to God. The rest is mine. I need all sinners to be able to hope to be saved.

I appreciate your rebuke and take it with brotherly affection. I cannot say that I entirely agree with your evaluation but I understand the perception. I have come to think that it is usually useless to try to persuade people of my point of view unless they can see that I am trying to give their point of view a fair shake. That takes more time than just diving in to arguments. Feel free to give me a prod whenever you think I am getting too soft. I'll ignore if you are totally out to lunch!

I was thinking about jumping into one of those apostasy threads the other day. Somebody said something out of left field about how "the Catholics" believe that papal infallibility played a role in changing the mode of baptism. It won't help anybody for me to make the correction. I doubt if anybody even paid it any attention. I would like to proclaim my faith as much as ever, but I am not going to push it. I've thought we might have to wait for another pope to come along before we are newsworthy around here again.

Anyway, good to see you, may you have a very good Lent, and the happy Easter that is its wonderful fruit.

All the best,

3DOP

I never said you did, or said, anything wrong. Some here use you as a bludgeon against Christians. Obviously I was wrong in assuming you'd tire of being used.

 I have grown tired of being bludgeoned.  Leaving it all behind and moving forward, just me, here in the land of Zion, and very little Catholic stuff around me. Though we did get a new Bishop, finally,  on Tuesday. Have yet to see how he approaches Mass improv, which picked up in the 21 months the Cathedral chair was empty. 

So, I see where you're coming from, maybe some day you'll realize Mormons here are feeding on your discontent,  obvious signs of Apostasy with a capital A writ large and in red paint. Rock on.

See ya! But probably not.  I'm out. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by saemo