Hitler's Temple Work Done?

[Ouagadougou]

So, I'm sure some might have seen this or heard already, but apparently Hitler's temple work was done back in 1993.

A friend sent me the recent Mormon Leaks release of public figures baptized in the church (posthumously) -- and Hitler was on the list.  I don't want to violate any rules, so I didn't provide the link, but can if that is allowed. 

A few questions:

- Is Hitler really somebody that should be baptized in the church (posthumously)?  IMO, no way. 

- I believe in the atonement/repentance (up to a point I guess), but Hitler getting baptized less than 50 years following his death?  IMO, no way should he have been baptized; he should probably never be allowed. 

- He also was endowed, and sealed to his wife and parents.  Why would this be necessary for a terrible person like Hitler?

- Can his temple work be cancelled/undone?  

- Are there people so bad that baptism and temple work will never be allowed for them?  I think Hitler (and other terrible individuals) might fit into this category, if that is the case.

Edit:

In accordancee with the following statement, this post is with regard to Hitler's temple work being done (found in the leak):

"We decided that we will be allowing discussions on these "mormonwikileaks".  The following rules will be applied to them.

1. Discuss the information in the leak only. 
2. Discussions that delve into the speculation will be cut off.
3. Once the discussion turns circular and rehashing of the same thing over and over again it will also be closed."

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Ouagadougou

[Calm]

Is Hitler human?  Is it our right to decide who is and isn't capable of repenting?  If we can block doing it for Hitler, why not anyone else, including the next door neighbor we think is too hard hearted to ever open up to the Gospel?  Or the exspouse who we see as a despicable human being?

We are commanded to provide ordinances for all at this time.

Chances are his work was done multiple times in the past.  Safeguards are now in place where most celebrity baptisms are caught and the person can lose their privilege of submitting names.  If the work is seen as unauthorized, it probably was removed.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

It may have been done.
Personally I would use the same term as was used in the early days of the Church.  It would be about as effective as "baptizing a bag of sand".

King David shed just one man's innocent blood and spent an entire lifetime seeking merely salvation in God's kingdom and holding little hope of exaltation.
And he was barely able to secure forgiveness due to the seriousness of his crime.
Those guilty of murder aren't even allowed to be baptized into the Church without FP permission, and even then only on exception basis.

A man that has committed the unpardonable sin of shedding innocent blood millions of times over with no sign of remorse is beyond the reach in my opinion.  A pointless ordinance. 

But he will hardly be the only person to receive vicarious ordinances for who they will have little effect.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is Hitler human?  Is it our right to decide who is and isn't capable of repenting?  If we can do it for Hitler, why not anyone else, including the next door neighbor we think is too hard hearted to ever open up to the Gospel?  Or the exspouse who we see as a despicable human being?

We are commanded to provide ordinances for all at this time.

Chances are his work was done multiple times in the past.  Safeguards are now in place where most celebrity baptisms are caught and the person can lose their privilege of submitting names.  If the work is seen as unauthorized, it probably was removed.

I agree with all this.
I am not saying the work shouldn't be done.  I AM saying I don't think repentance is possible in his situation.  But you are right.  We don't get to choose for whom the work gets done.
 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

So, I'm sure some might have seen this or heard already, but apparently Hitler's temple work was done back in 1993.

A friend sent me the recent Mormon Leaks release of public figures baptized in the church (posthumously) -- and Hitler was on the list.  I don't want to violate any rules, so I didn't provide the link, but can if that is allowed. 

A few questions:

- Is Hitler really somebody that should be baptized in the church (posthumously)?  IMO, no way. 

- I believe in the atonement/repentance (up to a point I guess), but Hitler getting baptized less than 50 years following his death?  IMO, no way should he have been baptized; he should probably never be allowed. 

- He also was endowed, and sealed to his wife and parents.  Why would this be necessary for a terrible person like Hitler?

- Can his temple work be cancelled/undone?  

- Are there people so bad that baptism and temple work will never be allowed for them?  I think Hitler (and other terrible individuals) might fit into this category, if that is the case.

Edit:

In accordancee with the following statement, this post is with regard to Hitler's temple work being done (found in the leak):

"We decided that we will be allowing discussions on these "mormonwikileaks".  The following rules will be applied to them.

1. Discuss the information in the leak only. 
2. Discussions that delve into the speculation will be cut off.
3. Once the discussion turns circular and rehashing of the same thing over and over again it will also be closed."

 

Why would you (or any human) believe that they had the right or ability to judge that another is unfit for repentance?  Those are pretty big shoes to fill-keeper of the salvation gate. 

Besides that though, a person's temple work having been done does not mean anything in regards to their afterlife.  God (and the person) has the final say.  If Hitler is unredeemable, then his temple work being done does not change that in the least.  All it does is provide the blessing in case God does not believe he is unredeemable.  

[Ouagadougou]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

man that has committed the unpardonable sin of shedding innocent blood millions of times over with no sign of remorse is beyond the reach in my opinion.  A pointless ordinance. 

I agree 100%.  

[Ouagadougou]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

19 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

 

Why would you (or any human) believe that they had the right or ability to judge that another is unfit for repentance?  Those are pretty big shoes to fill-keeper of the salvation gate. 

 

Because he killed millions of people.  Not too difficult to judge, IMO.  

[longview]

I am not in the position of judging Hitler 'Eternally' either now or in the next world.  But I would not be in a hurry to decide on his ordinance work.  On the other hand, i know from reading historical books that Adolf had a horrific abusive drunk for a father.

If people have been doing ordinance work for despots and other bad characters, I would expect the Holy Ghost to make his decisions for 'ratifying' those ordinances.  If He does not ratify, then the silly people will have wasted their time.  If it should be done, we have the safety net in the Millenium where ALL loose ends will be taken care of.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Because he killed millions of people.  Not too difficult to judge, IMO.  

If judging someone (regardless of who they are or what they've done) isn't difficult, then you don't understand the process and shouldn't be doing it.

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I agree 100%.  

Yet, JLHPROF still thinks his temple work should be done.  

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Because he killed millions of people.  Not too difficult to judge, IMO.  

What if he'd only killed 999,999? Or 99, or 9?  Should he only be forgiven for 7 that he killed?  Or 70 times 7?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Because he killed millions of people.  Not too difficult to judge, IMO.  

What if he suffered brain damage as a child that removed the ability to recognize right and wrong or to see others as like himself, to have empathy?

[Duncan]

Like others have said better than I none of us are in a position to judge him, if Christ's atonement doesn't cover his sins then does it for any of us? It's between him and God and i'm neither of those people. Recall this tidbit of info from then Elder George F. Richards of the Twelve shared in his diary and later a conference talk, 1946 I think

"I have seldom mentioned this to other people, but I do not know why I should not. It seems to me appropriate in talking along this line. I dreamed that I and a group of my own associates found ourselves in a courtyard where, around the outer edge of it, were German soldiers—and Fuhrer Adolph Hitler was there with his group, and they seemed to be sharpening their swords and cleaning their guns, and making preparations for a slaughter of some kind, or an execution. We knew not what, but, evidently we were the objects. But presently a circle was formed and this Fuhrer and his men were all within the circle, and my group and I were circled on the outside, and he was sitting on the inside of the circle with his back to the outside, and when we walked around and I got directly opposite to him, I stepped inside the circle and walked across to where he was sitting, and spoke to him in a manner something like this:

“I am your brother. You are my brother. In our heavenly home we lived together in love and peace. Why can we not so live here on the earth?” And it seemed to me that I felt in myself, welling up in my soul, a love for that man, and I could feel that he was having the same experience, and presently he arose, and we embraced each other and kissed each other, a kiss of affection.

Then the scene changed so that our group was within the circle, and he and his group were on the outside, and when he came around to where I was standing, he stepped inside the circle and embraced me again, with a kiss of affection.

I think the Lord gave me that dream. Why should I dream of this man, one of the greatest enemies of mankind, and one of the wickedest, but that the Lord should teach me that I must love my enemies, and I must love the wicked as well as the good?"

 

I am by no means a Hitler supporter but things about his eternal welfare that's not my call

 

 

[JulieM]

38 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

So, I'm sure some might have seen this or heard already, but apparently Hitler's temple work was done back in 1993.

A friend sent me the recent Mormon Leaks release of public figures baptized in the church (posthumously) -- and Hitler was on the list.  I don't want to violate any rules, so I didn't provide the link, but can if that is allowed. 

A few questions:

- Is Hitler really somebody that should be baptized in the church (posthumously)?  IMO, no way. 

- I believe in the atonement/repentance (up to a point I guess), but Hitler getting baptized less than 50 years following his death?  IMO, no way should he have been baptized; he should probably never be allowed. 

- He also was endowed, and sealed to his wife and parents.  Why would this be necessary for a terrible person like Hitler?

- Can his temple work be cancelled/undone?  

- Are there people so bad that baptism and temple work will never be allowed for them?  I think Hitler (and other terrible individuals) might fit into this category, if that is the case.

Edit:

In accordancee with the following statement, this post is with regard to Hitler's temple work being done (found in the leak):

"We decided that we will be allowing discussions on these "mormonwikileaks".  The following rules will be applied to them.

1. Discuss the information in the leak only. 
2. Discussions that delve into the speculation will be cut off.
3. Once the discussion turns circular and rehashing of the same thing over and over again it will also be closed."

I remember reading about this before and also that the church (leaders?) tried to delete these records or conceal them too and then denied it had been done.

I think it was Helen Radkey that researched it and wrote about this happening.  I'll try to find where I read it!

ETA:

Here's what Radkey wrote about it:

http://nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_records.htm

Edited February 21, 2017 by JulieM

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yet, JLHPROF still thinks his temple work should be done.  

Haha just with the part I quoted  

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

What if he'd only killed 999,999? Or 99, or 9?  Should he only be forgiven for 7 that he killed?  Or 70 times 7?

What if...what if...the fact is he killed millions.  I'm amazed that people are somehow trying to defend Hitler's baptism as if he is worthy of it.

[bluebell]

Just now, Ouagadougou said:

What if...what if...the fact is he killed millions.  I'm amazed that people are somehow trying to defend Hitler's baptism as if he is worthy of it.

You aren't understanding.

No one is defending his baptism because he's worthy of it.  What is being defended is the idea that we can't say who is capable of repentance and who isn't.  Only God can say that.

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

What if he suffered brain damage as a child that removed the ability to recognize right and wrong or to see others as like himself, to have empathy?

He was very calculated at what he did and showed to remorse.  I have 0% empathy for Hitler...sorry...but 0%. 

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

I remember reading about this before and also that the church (leaders?) tried to delete these records or conceal them too and then denied it had been done.

I think it was Helen Radkey that researched it and wrote about this happening.  I'll try to find where I read it!

ETA:

Here's what Radkey wrote about it:

http://nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_records.htm

And some think Hitler might have been baptized more than once!  No power of discernment for those working in the temple, especially if his name reads:

"Adolf Hitler

Died 30 April 1945

Berlin, Germany"

No red flags were raised when someone did his baptism, family seaings to parents and wife and endowments?!  

 

 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

And some think Hitler might have been baptized more than once!  No power of discernment for those working in the temple, especially if his name reads:

"Adolf Hitler

Died 30 April 1945

Berlin, Germany"

No red flags were raised when someone did his baptism, family seaings to parents and wife and endowments?!  

 

 

Do you agree that Hitler needs to accept all of the ordinances offered in the temple to be able to receive all of the blessings God is able to give him, if God so desires in his grace to bless him that much?

Or are you just a wee bit miffed that someone who did as much evil as Hitler did might somehow qualify for God's grace and all of his blessings?

Not that Hitler will necessarily accept all of God's grace and help but I do believe God is the ultimate good person who desires to bless everybody with as much good as they will accept.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Ahab

[Ouagadougou]

Just now, Ahab said:

Do you agree that Hitler nerds to accept all of the ordinances offered in the temple to be able to receive all of the blessings God is able to give him, if God so desires in his grace to bless him that much?

Or are you just a wee bit miffed that someone who did as much evil as Hitler did might somehow qualify for God's grace and all of his blessings?

Not that Hitler will necessarily accept all of God's grace and help but I do believe God is the ultimate good person who desires to bless everybody with as much good as they will accept 

So Hitler qualifies for God's blessings of baptism...but not innocent kids with gay parents?

You just proved my point...

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

He was very calculated at what he did and showed to remorse.  I have 0% empathy for Hitler...sorry...but 0%. 

He was clearly wrong in some of his views.  He believed a lot of bad things, and acted according to his bad beliefs.

But maybe, just maybe, Hitler may someday discover  that his bad beliefs were bad, and want to repent from acting on bad beliefs, and accept good beliefs instead of his bad/false/evil beliefs. So that God may bless him with as much good stuff as God us able to give.

I hope so, and believe it is possible with God's help.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

So Hitler qualifies for God's blessings of baptism...but not innocent kids with gay parents?

You just proved my point...

Innocent kids just have to wait until they are old enough to act on their own as adults without being subject to "gay parents".

The delay is just one of the consequences for having "gay parents".

[Duncan]

Just now, Ouagadougou said:

So Hitler qualifies for God's blessings of baptism...but not innocent kids with gay parents?

You just proved my point...

until they are 18 and can decide for themselves

[Storm Rider]

13 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

So Hitler qualifies for God's blessings of baptism...but not innocent kids with gay parents?

You just proved my point...

I am not sure you are capable of understanding this principle because it has been addressed.  Worse, you give an example that innocent kids of gay parents aren't "qualified" for God's blessing of baptism.  Could you please point the exact church policy that dictates that the children of gay parents are eternally excluded from being baptized?  Just one example will do; go ahead we will wait for the example.  You see the silliness of such a comparison, maybe.  No one, as in not a single child of God, is prevented from being baptized permanently.  

Oua, you and many others - me included - would not go out of our way to do the temple work for Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, are any number of individuals who have been horrible individuals in this life.  However, last time I heard not a single one of us has the appointed the judge of all humanity.  I do not regret that another person may choose to have the work done of any person that has ever lived regardless of what we know of their actions in life.  

The principle is to learn not to judge, to seek to do the work for all of our ancestors and not just the ones we deem are "worthy" to receive the temple ordinances.  If you don't feel capable of doing an ordinance for your ancestors then that is a personal problem that you will need to talk over with God.  We are judged on our own choices and actions - not those of others.  If we are going to be concerned about something we should focus on ourselves...full stop.