Ouagadougou Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 22 minutes ago, Ahab said: Whether you buy it or not, Hitler does just need to repent from ALL of his sins and yes Hitler does need God to bless him, otherwise Hitler will remain the miserable wicked man you know about from what other people have told you about him. Keep telling yourself that if it helps justify why his temple work was done. You might think it is some how inspiring, but I think it is an embarrassment to the church. And I'm willing to bet most of humanity would agree with me on that, IMO.
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Keep telling yourself that if it helps justify why his temple work was done. You might think it is some how inspiring, but I think it is an embarrassment to the church. And I'm willing to bet most of humanity would agree with me on that, IMO. Most of humanity is wrong on most issues, but if it helps you feel better to you to have other people agree with you then go ahead and do whatever other people believe you should believe. Do you at least believe that if Hitler doesn't accept all of the ordinances God commands and repent from all of his sins that he is destined for an eternity of torment...a fate that Jesus Christ can nullify because of his own atoning sacrifice? Edited February 22, 2017 by Ahab typo 1
cinepro Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan said: I have no idea, I know he has relatives but they would have changed their last name decades ago hahha! A few years ago, there was a TV show called "Happy Endings" about some singles in Chicago, and one of them get set up on a blind date with a guy whose last name is "Hitler" (his family emigrated long before WWII and they never changed the name). 1
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, cinepro said: A few years ago, there was a TV show called "Happy Endings" about some singles in Chicago, and one of them get set up on a blind date with a guy whose last name is "Hitler" (his family emigrated long before WWII and they never changed the name). HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH x a million! the nephew of Hitler, his life should be a movie, "Why I hate my Uncle" would be the title! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Patrick_Stuart-Houston
cinepro Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 43 minutes ago, Ahab said: Whether you buy it or not, Hitler does just need to repent from ALL of his sins and yes Hitler does need God to bless him, otherwise Hitler will remain the miserable wicked man you know about from what other people have told you about him. While I understand the impulse to suddenly hedge on the importance of Temple work and downplay what it actually means, it might be an appropriate time to remind everyone what the Church teaches the members about what, exactly, we are doing when we do Temple work: Becoming Saviors on Mount Zion “If we can, by the authority of the Priesthood of the Son of God, baptize a man in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, for the remission of sins, it is just as much our privilege to act as an agent, and be baptized for the remission of sins for and in behalf of [Hitler], who [has] not heard the Gospel, or the fullness of it.”8 1
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 2 hours ago, JulieM said: Yes, according to what one of our Prophets taught. Here is what Joseph Fielding Smith stated: "MURDERERS DENIED VICARIOUS ORDINANCES. We are called upon to assist in saving our own families. This is the great duty the Lord has given to us, It is our privilege to go back and trace our ancestors as far as we can and then go to the temple and do the work for all of them. The Lord will judge whether they are worthy or not to receive what we have done. Remember, though, we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives. These are left in the hands of the Lord. If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do work for him. . . . I cannot imagine a murderer like Nero, for example, having the work done for him and being entitled to the blessings of the celestial kingdom along with Isaiah who laid down his life for the truth." -Doctrines of Salvation, p. 337 Good quote. However, policy as far as I am aware is we don't make these kinds of choices. Perhaps someone has access to the handbook and can check.
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, JulieM said: It came from one of our Prophets. Has another one since changed this policy? Maybe there have been exceptions for suicides (I don't know), but I doubt there have been policy updates regarding murderers having their temple work done. I'm not aware of any updates, but I have a CFR issued on the other thread and maybe a leader has changed the policy. Suicides are given the benefit of the doubt that something was mentally or spiritually off. Sorry, don't have reference at the moment, just personal knowledge. Edited February 22, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 2 hours ago, JulieM said: Was the person who submitted or who performed Hitler's ordinances related to him (do you know)? I haven't seen where that was stated, but I haven't read the entire thread(s). If he wasn't, the ordinance was not authorized and was likely removed as invalid...from my understanding of past discussions that provided references and personal experiences.
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Calm said: Good quote. However, policy as far as I am aware is we don't make these kinds of choices. Perhaps someone has access to the handbook and can check. If there's been a policy change then why did the leaders nullify these ordinances done for Hitler? Do you have any evidence this part of the policy changed (specifically regarding submitting names of murderers or performing saving ordinances for them)? Edited February 22, 2017 by JulieM
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, Calm said: If he wasn't, the ordinance was not authorized and was likely removed as invalid...from my understanding of past discussions that provided references and personal experiences. I doubt they nullify all work done that wasn't submitted by a family member. Do they?
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, JulieM said: If there's been a policy change them why did the leaders nullify these ordinances done for Hitler? Do you have any evidence this part of the policy changed (specifically regarding submitting names of murderers or performing saving ordinances for them)? Probably because the wrong people did them. He had no children and he hasn't hit the 95 years yet, so falls under needing to ask nearest relative unless personal friend. 1
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, JulieM said: I doubt they nullify all work done that wasn't submitted by a family member. Do they? Some work is submitted through the Church programs, if I understand correctly, so not all names. Personal submissions that don't follow the rules are unlikely to be caught unless a famous person whose name has been flagged. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Whether you buy it or not, Hitler does just need to repent from ALL of his sins and yes Hitler does need God to bless him, otherwise Hitler will remain the miserable wicked man you know about from what other people have told you about him. I don't believe repentance is possible in that situation. 1
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I don't believe repentance is possible in that situation. Repentance involves trying to make restitution as much as possible, and yes in some situations we can't do very much to make amends other than to not do that kind of thing again, but we can do all we can do and that is enough for our Lord if we do all that we can and he then combines that with all that he did.
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Ahab said: Repentance involves trying to make restitution as much as possible, and yes in some situations we can't do very much to make amends other than to not do that kind of thing again, but we can do all we can do and that is enough for our Lord if we do all that we can and he then combines that with all that he did. I'll quote Joseph Smith again: "A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell: he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell. " And I'll steal the Joseph Fielding Smith quote: "Remember, though, we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives. These are left in the hands of the Lord. If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do work for him." 1
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) Hitler's work was done by a member, but was nullified by those who had authority to do so...whoever that was. A member makes a mistake, the Church corrects when made aware of it and continues to work to improve methods of preventing similar mistakes in the future. What is the problem? Edited February 22, 2017 by Calm 1
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'll quote Joseph Smith again: "A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell: he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell. " And I'll steal the Joseph Fielding Smith quote: "Remember, though, we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives. These are left in the hands of the Lord. If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do work for him." Thank you for those quotes. I somehow didn't see those before. Hmm. I'll have to ponder over that stuff for quite a while. Maybe the work for a murderer of an innocent victim would someday be done by a descendent who didn't realize or consider that person to be a murderer of an innocent victim, and I may have someone like that in my own line. I don't know. Seems like mothers who choose to abort one of their own children could get passed over by someone else in her family line. And people who kill in wars might also get passed by. It's not always easy to tell who the innocent people are.
Ouagadougou Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Most of humanity is wrong on most issues, but if it helps you feel better to you to have other people agree with you then go ahead and do whatever other people believe you should believe. Do you at least believe that if Hitler doesn't accept all of the ordinances God commands and repent from all of his sins that he is destined for an eternity of torment...a fate that Jesus Christ can nullify because of his own atoning sacrifice? And you think only Mormons are right. Hitler isn't entitled to receive temple ordinances because of what he did, IMO. How is he at all worthy to receive endowments, baptism, and eternal marriage?
HappyJackWagon Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 This is problematic for a couple of reasons... 1- To the non-member, it appears to be very callous to the atrocities of Hitler's regime. 2- To the LDS, by nullifying vicarious work (in Hitler's case), or simply not allowing saving temple work to be done (holocaust survivors) for what is presumably a PR reason, it raises questions about the essentiality of temple work. 3
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, Ahab said: Seems like mothers who choose to abort one of their own children could get passed over by someone else in her family line. I don't know of any blood more innocent. Quote And people who kill in wars might also get passed by. It's not always easy to tell who the innocent people are. Agreed. But I think the soldier in battle for noble cause has more of a claim of innocence (look at Capt Moroni for instance) than those who kill women and children and even non-combatants. And then there's D&C 121:19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea. Without a right to the priesthood, an endowment is a useless ordinance.
Ouagadougou Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 23 minutes ago, Calm said: Hitler's work was done by a member, but was nullified by those who had authority to do so...whoever that was. A member makes a mistake, the Church corrects when made aware of it and continues to work to improve methods of preventing similar mistakes in the future. What is the problem? Hitler's work was done by members...not just one member. I won't go into details, but if you haven't attended the temple, more than one person are involved in baptisms, sealings, endowments, etc. Nobody raised a red flag when they saw/heard"Adolf Hitler died 1945 Berlin, Germany?" Is temple work that boring and dry that people just go through the motions that "Adolf Hitler" gets missed on multiple occasions during different ordinances? This wasn't just a baptism, it was marriage/sealing to his wife and parents and receiving his endowments. At no point in time during any of these ordinances did any members/temple workers raise a red flag. That is embarrassing and pathetic, IMO.
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said: 2- To the LDS, by nullifying vicarious work (in Hitler's case), or simply not allowing saving temple work to be done (holocaust survivors) for what is presumably a PR reason, it raises questions about the essentiality of temple work. I don't think so. Temple work has always be subject to the acceptance and condition of the deceased. (Hitler). And 1000 years of temple work when Christ is accepted by the Jewish people at the Mt. of Olives should be more than enough time for them to receive the temple ordinances needed. None of this changes the essentiality of temple work.
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: And you think only Mormons are right. Hitler isn't entitled to receive temple ordinances because of what he did, IMO. How is he at all worthy to receive endowments, baptism, and eternal marriage? My point is not that he IS worthy. I just consider it to be possible for him to someday be worthy, after he does whatever it takes for him to be worthy, which would be every step of the repentance process...feeling remorse for his bad/evil behavior, determined not to do those kinds of bad/evil things again, and making amends as much as he can make amends. And of course accepting Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. If he can manage to do all of that, then he would be saved from eternal torment and his blessings would then be predicated by how much good fruit he produced, with the ordinances opening up blessings for him that he would not otherwise have.
ksfisher Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Calm said: Good quote. However, policy as far as I am aware is we don't make these kinds of choices. Perhaps someone has access to the handbook and can check. There is nothing about this in Handbooks 1 or 2 (unless I've missed it). I believe this would be found in the direction given to temple presidents.
HappyJackWagon Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: I don't think so. Temple work has always be subject to the acceptance and condition of the deceased. (Hitler). And 1000 years of temple work when Christ is accepted by the Jewish people at the Mt. of Olives should be more than enough time for them to receive the temple ordinances needed. None of this changes the essentiality of temple work. Ah...the old "millennium" argument. Are not these spirits in prison waiting for their temple work to be done so they can be released? I guess waiting a little while longer isn't a huge deal, but I suppose it would make sense to wait to do most temple work until the millennium when Jesus directs the work personally so we know it is all done correctly. We could get away from all of the "it will all work out in the next life" answers to the perplexing temple questions about sealings. If time really isn't a factor, why not wait? Answer- because members need something on which they can spend their time, whether or not it is being done effectively or accurately.
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