Ouagadougou Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: that's where you're getting tripped up, we can't say if he received the endowments et al all we can say is they were done but where he is now he and the rest of mankind can accept or reject it. How long have you been in the Church? Whole life man.
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Duncan said: do you have any scripture that supports the idea of a limited atonement though? Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, D&C 42:24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out. 25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; 26 But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out. D&C 76:32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. Alma 39: 6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness. Joseph Smith - A murderer, for instance, on that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell: he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell. D&C 42:79 And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land. (Seems to apply to Hitler) 1
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, JLHPROF said: Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, D&C 42:24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out. 25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; 26 But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out. D&C 76:32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. Alma 39: 6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness. Joseph Smith - A murderer, for instance, on that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell: he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell. D&C 42:79 And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land. (Seems to apply to Hitler) you know I think highly of you and so I would agree in some point on the last two references provided but i just don't think we know enough about Hitler to make these kinds of calls, but I don't see why he can't have at least the Temple blessings at least offered but will he accept them? that's where we don't know and I am not going to decide for him, others feel the need but I don't. I am working out my salvation, others can work out their's
JLHPROF Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 20 minutes ago, Duncan said: you know I think highly of you and so I would agree in some point on the last two references provided but i just don't think we know enough about Hitler to make these kinds of calls, but I don't see why he can't have at least the Temple blessings at least offered but will he accept them? that's where we don't know and I am not going to decide for him, others feel the need but I don't. I am working out my salvation, others can work out their's I really don't know what you think we could find out about Hitler that would absolve him of the shedding of millions of people's innocent blood. I don't think Hitler will be allowed to accept those ordinances. Baptism isn't a magical sin eraser. The ordinances need to be done that the laws are equally applied. I don't believe everyone will have the right to accept or refuse them.
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, JLHPROF said: I really don't know what you think we could find out about Hitler that would absolve him of the shedding of millions of people's innocent blood. I don't think Hitler will be allowed to accept those ordinances. Baptism isn't a magical sin eraser. The ordinances need to be done that the laws are equally applied. I don't believe everyone will have the right to accept or refuse them. Guess we'll find out in the next life! I believe that atonement covers Hitler and me and all everyone but the question is will we accept it but as I say we'll find out in the next life
saemo Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 8 hours ago, Duncan said: Like others have said better than I none of us are in a position to judge him, if Christ's atonement doesn't cover his sins then does it for any of us? It's between him and God and i'm neither of those people. Recall this tidbit of info from then Elder George F. Richards of the Twelve shared in his diary and later a conference talk, 1946 I think "I have seldom mentioned this to other people, but I do not know why I should not. It seems to me appropriate in talking along this line. I dreamed that I and a group of my own associates found ourselves in a courtyard where, around the outer edge of it, were German soldiers—and Fuhrer Adolph Hitler was there with his group, and they seemed to be sharpening their swords and cleaning their guns, and making preparations for a slaughter of some kind, or an execution. We knew not what, but, evidently we were the objects. But presently a circle was formed and this Fuhrer and his men were all within the circle, and my group and I were circled on the outside, and he was sitting on the inside of the circle with his back to the outside, and when we walked around and I got directly opposite to him, I stepped inside the circle and walked across to where he was sitting, and spoke to him in a manner something like this: “I am your brother. You are my brother. In our heavenly home we lived together in love and peace. Why can we not so live here on the earth?” And it seemed to me that I felt in myself, welling up in my soul, a love for that man, and I could feel that he was having the same experience, and presently he arose, and we embraced each other and kissed each other, a kiss of affection. Then the scene changed so that our group was within the circle, and he and his group were on the outside, and when he came around to where I was standing, he stepped inside the circle and embraced me again, with a kiss of affection. I think the Lord gave me that dream. Why should I dream of this man, one of the greatest enemies of mankind, and one of the wickedest, but that the Lord should teach me that I must love my enemies, and I must love the wicked as well as the good?" I am by no means a Hitler supporter but things about his eternal welfare that's not my call Bromance dreams of Hitler is seriously messed up. 1
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, saemo said: Bromance dreams of Hitler is seriously messed up. talk to Elder Richards about it!
strappinglad Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) Hitler, Hitler, Hitler... that's all I've been hearing of late. The epitome of evil. Sorry , but that title has quite a few better contenders. Genghis Khan wiped out an estimated 40 million, many by his own hand. Stalin, that paragon of virtue helped many millions to cross over. Mao the same. And then there are the Ted Bundys of the world... minor players in their own right but just as evil. What shall we do with the folks who brought small pox to the Americas and , by doing so, killed off 90% of the indigenous population. But that's OK because it wasn't done deliberately... or was it ? We are told that the Sons of Perdition are the only ones that will receive no forgiveness in this life or the next. The Holy Ghost must be involved for that to proceed. Some here have decided that Hitler qualifies and there is some scriptural evidence for it. Other statements have indicated that a Son of Perdition must have been given a full portion of the Holy Ghost and then deny it. Does a mass killer still qualify? Maybe not. Was it wise to do the temple work for Hitler? In today's PC world, probably not. Was it legit? Yup ! I am reasonably certain that a couple of my Viking ancestors ( whose work has been done ) were guilty of shortening the life of at least one cantankerous Brit. Sorry, no soup for you , guys! For the judges in the crowd, pick a sin, any sin, and decide right now never to repent of it. Keep to your guns even at the heavenly bar. Let's see what good your temple work, done directly or by proxy, does you. No unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom. Hitler will have to clean up... so will each of us. If he doesn't ( and I agree it will take quite a scrubbing ) , he ain't moving on. It's called damnation for a reason. Edited February 22, 2017 by strappinglad 3
Calm Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: What shall we do with the folks who brought small pox to the Americas and , by doing so, killed off 90% of the indigenous population. But that's OK because it wasn't done deliberately... or was it ? Taking diseased clothing into a village...disgusting. Biochemical warfare isn't new. But not anymore disgusting as standard rape and pillage. Leaving victims behind to die of starvation isn't any less evil than 'clearing the land' of obstacles to settlement of 'one's own kind' through intentional infection.*** If we refused forgiveness of all those who looked on others as something less than human to justify their treatment of them, we might end up excluding the majority of our brothers and sisters, including ourselves. Is not drawing a line in the sand and saying to those on the other side 'you have no right to God's forgiveness' telling them they do not belong to the human family, they are less than human? ****Thankfully it appears to not have happened in all once reported circumstances: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/plag/5240451.0001.009/--did-the-us-army-distribute-smallpox-blankets-to-indians?rgn=main&view=fulltext Unfortunately likely happening in others: ""Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect." William Trent, William Trent's Journal at Fort Pitt" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics Edited February 22, 2017 by Calm 2
Ouagadougou Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 8 hours ago, strappinglad said: Hitler, Hitler, Hitler... that's all I've been hearing of late. The epitome of evil. Sorry , but that title has quite a few better contenders. Genghis Khan wiped out an estimated 40 million, many by his own hand. Stalin, that paragon of virtue helped many millions to cross over. Mao the same. And then there are the Ted Bundys of the world... minor players in their own right but just as evil. What shall we do with the folks who brought small pox to the Americas and , by doing so, killed off 90% of the indigenous population. But that's OK because it wasn't done deliberately... or was it ? We are told that the Sons of Perdition are the only ones that will receive no forgiveness in this life or the next. The Holy Ghost must be involved for that to proceed. Some here have decided that Hitler qualifies and there is some scriptural evidence for it. Other statements have indicated that a Son of Perdition must have been given a full portion of the Holy Ghost and then deny it. Does a mass killer still qualify? Maybe not. Was it wise to do the temple work for Hitler? In today's PC world, probably not. Was it legit? Yup ! I am reasonably certain that a couple of my Viking ancestors ( whose work has been done ) were guilty of shortening the life of at least one cantankerous Brit. Sorry, no soup for you , guys! For the judges in the crowd, pick a sin, any sin, and decide right now never to repent of it. Keep to your guns even at the heavenly bar. Let's see what good your temple work, done directly or by proxy, does you. No unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom. Hitler will have to clean up... so will each of us. If he doesn't ( and I agree it will take quite a scrubbing ) , he ain't moving on. It's called damnation for a reason. You trying to downplay Hitler doesn't make it any better; It's a complete embarrassment that he had his temple work done. The worst part is many can't admit that, yes, it was wrong, too early, and should NOT have been done and the church made a mistake.
rodheadlee Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: You trying to downplay Hitler doesn't make it any better; It's a complete embarrassment that he had his temple work done. The worst part is many can't admit that, yes, it was wrong, too early, and should NOT have been done and the church made a mistake. So, I'm related to the Dalton Gang. Are you saying I shouldn't get their temple work done? Should we judge everyone we submit for temple work? Where do we draw the line? Mass murders, murderers, adulterers, liars, thieves, fornicators? 2
Ouagadougou Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 25 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: So, I'm related to the Dalton Gang. Are you saying I shouldn't get their temple work done? Should we judge everyone we submit for temple work? Where do we draw the line? Mass murders, murderers, adulterers, liars, thieves, fornicators? A mass murder who killed 11 million would be a good start, especially since the church is so focused on good PR.
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 32 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: So, I'm related to the Dalton Gang. Are you saying I shouldn't get their temple work done? Yes, according to what one of our Prophets taught. Here is what Joseph Fielding Smith stated: "MURDERERS DENIED VICARIOUS ORDINANCES. We are called upon to assist in saving our own families. This is the great duty the Lord has given to us, It is our privilege to go back and trace our ancestors as far as we can and then go to the temple and do the work for all of them. The Lord will judge whether they are worthy or not to receive what we have done. Remember, though, we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives. These are left in the hands of the Lord. If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do work for him. . . . I cannot imagine a murderer like Nero, for example, having the work done for him and being entitled to the blessings of the celestial kingdom along with Isaiah who laid down his life for the truth." -Doctrines of Salvation, p. 337 2
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, JulieM said: Yes, according to what one of our Prophets taught. Here is what Joseph Fielding Smith stated: "MURDERERS DENIED VICARIOUS ORDINANCES. We are called upon to assist in saving our own families. This is the great duty the Lord has given to us, It is our privilege to go back and trace our ancestors as far as we can and then go to the temple and do the work for all of them. The Lord will judge whether they are worthy or not to receive what we have done. Remember, though, we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives. These are left in the hands of the Lord. If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do work for him. . . . I cannot imagine a murderer like Nero, for example, having the work done for him and being entitled to the blessings of the celestial kingdom along with Isaiah who laid down his life for the truth." -Doctrines of Salvation, p. 337 is that the current policy of the Church?
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Duncan said: is that the current policy of the Church? It came from one of our Prophets. Has another one since changed this policy? Maybe there have been exceptions for suicides (I don't know), but I doubt there have been policy updates regarding murderers having their temple work done. I'm not aware of any updates, but I have a CFR issued on the other thread and maybe a leader has changed the policy. Edited February 22, 2017 by JulieM
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, JulieM said: It came from one of our Prophets. Has another one since changed this policy? Maybe there have been exceptions for suicides (I don't know), but I doubt there have been policy updates regarding murderers having their temple work done. I'm not aware of any updates, but I have a CFR issued on the other thread and maybe a leader has changed the policy. I think Calm has stated the current policy being that we don't decide who gets the work done or not. Obviously celebrities, people you aren't related to and holocaust victims but other than that. My Mum had an Aunt who may or may not have been accountable but she had her work done, she figured where she is now she is accountable so leave with God and Aunt so and so to work out!
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Duncan said: I think Calm has stated the current policy being that we don't decide who gets the work done or not. Obviously celebrities, people you aren't related to and holocaust victims but other than that. Was the person who submitted or who performed Hitler's ordinances related to him (do you know)? I haven't seen where that was stated, but I haven't read the entire thread(s).
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 19 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: So, I'm sure some might have seen this or heard already, but apparently Hitler's temple work was done back in 1993. A friend sent me the recent Mormon Leaks release of public figures baptized in the church (posthumously) -- and Hitler was on the list. I don't want to violate any rules, so I didn't provide the link, but can if that is allowed. A few questions: - Is Hitler really somebody that should be baptized in the church (posthumously)? IMO, no way. - I believe in the atonement/repentance (up to a point I guess), but Hitler getting baptized less than 50 years following his death? IMO, no way should he have been baptized; he should probably never be allowed. - He also was endowed, and sealed to his wife and parents. Why would this be necessary for a terrible person like Hitler? - Can his temple work be cancelled/undone? - Are there people so bad that baptism and temple work will never be allowed for them? I think Hitler (and other terrible individuals) might fit into this category, if that is the case. Edit: In accordancee with the following statement, this post is with regard to Hitler's temple work being done (found in the leak): "We decided that we will be allowing discussions on these "mormonwikileaks". The following rules will be applied to them. 1. Discuss the information in the leak only. 2. Discussions that delve into the speculation will be cut off. 3. Once the discussion turns circular and rehashing of the same thing over and over again it will also be closed." is Hitler beyond the power of Christ?
JulieM Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: is Hitler beyond the power of Christ? Well, according to a letter just posted on the other thread, the leaders nullified Hitler's ordinances. I don't know if they've been redone or not.
Tacenda Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 19 minutes ago, Duncan said: I think Calm has stated the current policy being that we don't decide who gets the work done or not. Obviously celebrities, people you aren't related to and holocaust victims but other than that. My Mum had an Aunt who may or may not have been accountable but she had her work done, she figured where she is now she is accountable so leave with God and Aunt so and so to work out! 1
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, JulieM said: Was the person who submitted or who performed Hitler's ordinances related to him (do you know)? I haven't seen where that was stated, but I haven't read the entire thread(s). I have no idea, I know he has relatives but they would have changed their last name decades ago hahha!
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 The nullification of his ordinances just keeps it in Christ's hands. He is the one who gets to decide Hitlers fate. Personally I think Hitler is in for a very rough time, but that is between God and Hitler, not me. I have my own salvation to work out. 2
Duncan Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, Tacenda said: I gather Mickey Mouse and Hitler will have to wait until the millenium then! it's interesting to see it said they were nullified not eternally denied Temple blessings
Ahab Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 13 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Ok. Well, I think he was a garbage of a human and trying to justify his baptism (and sealings/endowment) as legitimate is just an illustration of cognitive dissonance at an extremely high level. Yeah, poor Hitler just needs to repent because he needs God's blessings...I don't buy that for a second. Whether you buy it or not, Hitler does just need to repent from ALL of his sins and yes Hitler does need God to bless him, otherwise Hitler will remain the miserable wicked man you know about from what other people have told you about him.
Ouagadougou Posted February 22, 2017 Author Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: is Hitler beyond the power of Christ? Worthy of baptism and the temple ordinances? Nope.
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