MormonLeaks publishes docs on GA pay, meetings

[JAHS]

 Comcast announced Thursday it will not run a TV commercial that it determined demeans the LDS Church.
The statement reads: "Comcast Spotlight, the advertising sales division of Comcast Cable, reviews ads on a case-by-case basis for compliance with our guidelines. Upon review, the ad did not comply with our guidelines because the client was unwilling to provide substantiation for their claims and we do not accept ads that demean individuals or specific organizations. We offered to review any additional spots the client was interested in airing."

Comcast refuses to air attack ads that 'demean' LDS Church

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm very appreciative of all of the charity work that the LDS church does in the world.  But seriously bluebell...are you happy that only an average of $1.10 in humanitarian aid is donated per member per year for 25 years?  Had the church not disclosed this amount and then quickly reversed themselves and took that web page down...we would have NEVER even known that so little has been donated.  If they were proud of the amount donated they would still be proudly showing it...but they weren't...it exposed too much information...information that was unkind on the cherished image that the church wants to project. They would rather have a false perception remain intact than be transparent and expose themselves and their $1.10 per member donations reality to the world.

I understand that members of this board will support any position of the church and will argue to their dying day that non-transparency is the correct path forward...but seriously...$1.10? You support that measly sum?  I don't believe that anyone who has donated 10's of thousands of dollars over their lifetime can be happy knowing that despite making that 10's of thousands of dollars donation only a mere  $85.80 will have gone to humanitarian aid in their lifetime.  It is only in the NOT KNOWING that a member would be ok with this....and that is exactly how the church obviously wants it to remain.

It sincerely does not bother me because I know that my tithing money does a lot more than just humanitarian aid because the church has more missions than just humanitarian aid.  I don't actually pay tithing for the humanitarian aid.  If that was why I paid tithing then yes, i'd probably be really upset.  I donate humanitarian aid on top of paying tithing though.  Tithing, for me, is an obligation set by the Lord.  

And saying things like "I understand that members of this board will support any position of the church and will argue to their dying day" sounds just as dumb and condescending as it does when members say things like "i know all ex-mormons left because of sin". 

Entertain the possibility that someone might not agree with you and it's not because they just don't know as much as you do.  

[The Nehor]

Compared to political leaks LDS leaks are dull and boring.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 Comcast announced Thursday it will not run a TV commercial that it determined demeans the LDS Church.
The statement reads: "Comcast Spotlight, the advertising sales division of Comcast Cable, reviews ads on a case-by-case basis for compliance with our guidelines. Upon review, the ad did not comply with our guidelines because the client was unwilling to provide substantiation for their claims and we do not accept ads that demean individuals or specific organizations. We offered to review any additional spots the client was interested in airing."

Comcast refuses to air attack ads that 'demean' LDS Church

I saw that.  Looks like comcast is making sure it's not going to get sued for slander.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I knew about it from way back. Maybe from my seminary teacher?

Maybe from General Conference? President Hinckley:

Quote

I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.

 

[Johnnie Cake]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It sincerely does not bother me because I know that my tithing money does a lot more than just humanitarian aid because the church has more missions than just humanitarian aid.  I don't actually pay tithing for the humanitarian aid.  If that was why I paid tithing then yes, i'd probably be really upset.  I donate humanitarian aid on top of paying tithing though.  Tithing, for me, is an obligation set by the Lord.  

And saying things like "I understand that members of this board will support any position of the church and will argue to their dying day" sounds just as dumb and condescending as it does when members say things like "i know all ex-mormons left because of sin". 

Entertain the possibility that someone might not agree with you and it's not because they just don't know as much as you do.  

Hope springs eternal....but I've yet to see a believing poster change their position 01. When it is a position held by the corporate church or 2. a position argued against by a non believer on this board.  I could be wrong...but I see very little if any light between believing posters on this board and the positions and policies of the church.  Dogmatism is the unwritten rule of many posters on this board.

[Johnnie Cake]

15 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 Comcast announced Thursday it will not run a TV commercial that it determined demeans the LDS Church.
The statement reads: "Comcast Spotlight, the advertising sales division of Comcast Cable, reviews ads on a case-by-case basis for compliance with our guidelines. Upon review, the ad did not comply with our guidelines because the client was unwilling to provide substantiation for their claims and we do not accept ads that demean individuals or specific organizations. We offered to review any additional spots the client was interested in airing."

Comcast refuses to air attack ads that 'demean' LDS Church

That proposed ad (yes I've seen it) Is offensive to both believers and non believers.  Don't think that we fo-mo's like it or want anything to do with it...

[CV75]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's voluntary in the sense that no one is being forced but you can't say someone is volunteering their time when they receive benefits and a $120K stipend by contract. That is weak apologetics and I think most people will reject calling someone an unpaid volunteer because they get a "stipend" instead of a "salary". Saying it's not payment for service is a bit disingenuous.

 

If you don't believe me you could try a little social media experiment. Go onto your personal FB account and ask a question, leaving the church out of it.

"If I have a contract to receive a $120,000 stipend each year would I be considered an unpaid volunteer?"

Then see what kind of results you get.

The response might surprise you considering my FB demographics… and I would use far more integrity than that which you suggest in presenting the information and asking the question when broaching the subject to an audience of any size.

56 minutes ago, Danzo said:

To the IRS, a wage, a salary and a stipend are the same thing.  It is taxable income received (subject to the statutory exemption of the parsonage allowance, which is only subject to FICA and Medicare)

Well, I posted the kind of stipend I’m talking about. If you feel they are all the same only because the US tax code considers them (and tips, mind you -- the mohel paid tax on the $25 per bris but tried to keep all the tips) taxable, I suggest you broaden your horizons a bit for the sake of understanding the big picture, because the stipend is still what the link says it is and isn’t, for example: “It is often distinct from a wage or a salary because it does not necessarily represent payment for work performed; instead it represents a payment that enables somebody to be exempt partly or wholly from waged or salaried employment in order to undertake a role that is normally unpaid (e.g. a magistrate in the United Kingdom) or voluntary, or which cannot be measured in terms of a task (e.g. members of the clergy).”

[Jeanne]

8 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

That proposed ad (yes I've seen it) Is offensive to both believers and non believers.  Don't think that we fo-mo's like it or want anything to do with it...

So true.  I have seen it and dislike it.

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Well, I posted the kind of stipend I’m talking about. If you feel they are all the same only because the US tax code considers them (and tips, mind you -- the mohel paid tax on the $25 per bris but tried to keep all the tips) taxable, I suggest you broaden your horizons a bit for the sake of understanding the big picture, because the stipend is still what the link says it is and isn’t, for example: “It is often distinct from a wage or a salary because it does not necessarily represent payment for work performed; instead it represents a payment that enables somebody to be exempt partly or wholly from waged or salaried employment in order to undertake a role that is normally unpaid (e.g. a magistrate in the United Kingdom) or voluntary, or which cannot be measured in terms of a task (e.g. members of the clergy).”

I just wanted to point out that the law doesn't see a distinction.  Most critics will not see a distinction.  Most accountants will not see a distinction. Most lawyers will not see a distinction.

It is money paid that would not have been paid except for the position that the recipient holds.  If the recipient didn't hold the position they did, they wouldn't be getting the money.

The law looks at it the same way.  Wages, Tips, Stipends, living expenses, etc are all considered taxable, earned income;Even if you call it something else..

People come to my office all of the time thinking they have found a way around the law for a particular deduction.  I tell them that convincing themselves is the easy part. Convincing the IRS and the Judges can be a bit more difficult.

One things that my clients are often in trouble for is when they give gifts to employees.  Tax law prohibits giving gifts to employees unless the amount is included in their wages and taxed accordingly.

 Can tell you how many times people say something like. 

"I do service for X and X gives me a gift when I do it. since Gifts are not taxable to the recipient, can I exclude the money from my taxes?" I smile and tell them it is called a wage.

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Hope springs eternal....but I've yet to see a believing poster change their position 01. When it is a position held by the corporate church or 2. a position argued against by a non believer on this board.  I could be wrong...but I see very little if any light between believing posters on this board and the positions and policies of the church.  Dogmatism is the unwritten rule of many posters on this board.

If it makes you feel better, i've yet to see an ex-mormon change their position either.  But, anything can happen.  

[Teancum]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It sincerely does not bother me because I know that my tithing money does a lot more than just humanitarian aid because the church has more missions than just humanitarian aid.  I don't actually pay tithing for the humanitarian aid.  If that was why I paid tithing then yes, i'd probably be really upset.  I donate humanitarian aid on top of paying tithing though.  Tithing, for me, is an obligation set by the Lord.  

And saying things like "I understand that members of this board will support any position of the church and will argue to their dying day" sounds just as dumb and condescending as it does when members say things like "i know all ex-mormons left because of sin". 

Entertain the possibility that someone might not agree with you and it's not because they just don't know as much as you do.  

To add humanitarian aid does not include fast offering assistance.  When I was a bishop we did about $40k plus a year for fast offering assistance.  I think we were a bit higher than norm but also lower.  So assume the average is $25k per ward/branch.  I am not sure the number of wards and branches but it is probably around 30,000.   Do the math. That is about $750,000,000 per year is food rent and other aid to members and in my ward even at times non members.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

To add humanitarian aid does not include fast offering assistance.  When I was a bishop we did about $40k plus a year for fast offering assistance.  I think we were a bit higher than norm but also lower.  So assume the average is $25k per ward/branch.  I am not sure the number of wards and branches but it is probably around 30,000.   Do the math. That is about $750,000,000 per year is food rent and other aid to members and in my ward even at times non members.

Thanks for the info, i was wondering about that.

[Teancum]

Just now, bluebell said:

Thanks for the info, i was wondering about that.

Every one seems to forget it. And it is 100% to those in need. No over head. Even now I am a big supporter of fast offering and donate substantially to our ward in this area.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I just wanted to point out that the law doesn't see a distinction.  Most critics will not see a distinction.  Most accountants will not see a distinction. Most lawyers will not see a distinction.

It is money paid that would not have been paid except for the position that the recipient holds.  If the recipient didn't hold the position they did, they wouldn't be getting the money.

The law looks at it the same way.  Wages, Tips, Stipends, living expenses, etc are all considered taxable, earned income;Even if you call it something else..

People come to my office all of the time thinking they have found a way around the law for a particular deduction.  I tell them that convincing themselves is the easy part. Convincing the IRS and the Judges can be a bit more difficult.

One things that my clients are often in trouble for is when they give gifts to employees.  Tax law prohibits giving gifts to employees unless the amount is included in their wages and taxed accordingly.

 Can tell you how many times people say something like. 

"I do service for X and X gives me a gift when I do it. since Gifts are not taxable to the recipient, can I exclude the money from my taxes?" I smile and tell them it is called a wage.

LOL accountants and lawyers get paid to see a distinction! Critics? Meh. The law? One for every distinction. You? That’s just wonderful tax advice... I guess...

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

If it makes you feel better, i've yet to see an ex-mormon change their position either.  But, anything can happen.  

You need to read my posts more often then...I've had my mind changed on multiple occasions on this very board by intelligent arguments from many of the believing posters on this board...and when my opinion has been changed or a position I've held changes...I admit it openly.  I'm very pragmatic in my views and am more than willing to reject a belief or position I've held that I find is not based in reality.  Heck that's one of the reasons I'm no longer a Mormon 

[Danzo]

23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

LOL accountants and lawyers get paid to see a distinction! Critics? Meh. The law? One for every distinction. You? That’s just wonderful tax advice... I guess...

I guess as long as you aren't talking to anyone else, your definition should be fine.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

To add humanitarian aid does not include fast offering assistance.  When I was a bishop we did about $40k plus a year for fast offering assistance.  I think we were a bit higher than norm but also lower.  So assume the average is $25k per ward/branch.  I am not sure the number of wards and branches but it is probably around 30,000.   Do the math. That is about $750,000,000 per year is food rent and other aid to members and in my ward even at times non members.

My ward will typically average well over $100,000 in fast offering assistance per year.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You need to read my posts more often then...I've had my mind changed on multiple occasions on this very board by intelligent arguments from many of the believing posters on this board...and when my opinion has been changed or a position I've held changes...I admit it openly.  I'm very pragmatic in my views and am more than willing to reject a belief or position I've held that I find is not based in reality.  Heck that's one of the reasons I'm no longer a Mormon 

So have I Johnny. I've also disagreed with the church's stance on things before. But it seemed worthless to point it out.  You feel comfortable speaking in absolutes and broad brushstrokes and even when I pointed out how dumb such thinking is, you doubled down on it. No reason to keep talking at that point.

 

[cdowis]

7 hours ago, JulieM said:

 

We have always been told that our church has no “paid clergy”. 

 

I prefer to be more careful, "Our church has a lay priesthood, which means that our local church leaders have regular employment and not paid for their church work."

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

To add humanitarian aid does not include fast offering assistance.  When I was a bishop we did about $40k plus a year for fast offering assistance.  I think we were a bit higher than norm but also lower.  So assume the average is $25k per ward/branch.  I am not sure the number of wards and branches but it is probably around 30,000.   Do the math. That is about $750,000,000 per year is food rent and other aid to members and in my ward even at times non members.

You were giving ward members $40,000 in assistance?  Wow.  During my time in the bishopric it was rare that we exceeded a tenth of that amount in a year.  So I'm not sure you can extrapolate your numbers the way you did.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

Apparently in Canada those bullet points you listed only require 50% to 70% of the tithes and offerings.  That leaves a lot for other activities.

Where are you getting this from?  

They can hardly contribute to worldwide programs with money that can only be spent in Canada itself.  That can pay for buildings and temples with Canada and the missionary and other work within its borders, but nowhere in the scriptures does it require tithe and offerings only to be used for the nation the tithers belong to.

[Johnnie Cake]

55 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So have I Johnny. I've also disagreed with the church's stance on things before. But it seemed worthless to point it out.  You feel comfortable speaking in absolutes and broad brushstrokes and even when I pointed out how dumb such thinking is, you doubled down on it. No reason to keep talking at that point.

 

Just when we were becoming friends you drag out tired and overused cliches and tropes and disengage. Disappointed

[Guest]

On January 9, 2017 at 4:45 PM, rockpond said:

MormonLeaks (formerly MormonWikiLeaks) published a few more documents today:  https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/5mysp0/leaked_q15_and_1q70_pay_information/

Here's a summary that someone posted at the top of that reddit page:

Again, as with previous leaks, probably not much here to surprise anyone.

With these numbers listed, my combined income, working 5 days a week and teaching two nights a week at a community College. I made more than a GA! Helping to run a worldwide Church, so also run worldwide holdings and businesses. My onldest son make more for a job from which he works from home, for the most part. With the dollar in such decline, it would seem that they need better pay, when working full time for the Church. I live on half of what I once did while working, but thankfully I was able to get out of debt. I am retired (due to injury) now, and making good choices with my money, and having insured myself and my money, in a number of ways...my wife and I should remain comfortable for the remaining of our lives. Also, have served as a police officer for the City of Atlanta, my wife will receive my pension, should I pass, for the remainder of her life. I still have two other retirements that can kick in in 2 years thought, Chattahoochee Tech College, and through Parsons, Corp. my final company. We are insuring that as lost as I am alive, to ensure Pam does not apply for SS, until see is 67 1/2, years of age, so she call collect the max. 

Those within the Church we have become "good stewards" of their money and education, this will allow them to need little are no aid. But if they are called up, younger and unable to use the money due to penalties for drawing funds out to soon, will need the money from the Church as an offset. Either was all who become GA's and others who work full time for the Church, should be compensated in a fair manner as to their real world counterpoints working in simular jobs. 

For years as the Stake Finacial Clerk, I had to pay all bills, for any cost that the Church created, and pay (this was decades ago) Almost between 11:00 to 12:00 an hour, keep with with all "sick leave", "Vaction" as well. All of this better pay and benefits were better that any Church I ever encountered...as friends who did the same work I've known most of my adult life, they were not payed in this matter. One think they did like, as monies that were paid for collection plates...all off the books. This would allow them not have to claim it as income and not pay taxes, our people got either 1099M or they would be sent  W-2 or 1099's 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

My ward will typically average well over $100,000 in fast offering assistance per year.

Are you saying that the ward gives $100k in assistance each year or that it collects $100k in fast offerings?

$100,000 is mind-blowing to me based on my experience.