MormonLeaks publishes docs on GA pay, meetings

[Calm]

8 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How much was Monson's annual income when he was called? Packer's? Unless you know details about their finances before they were called I don't think you're in any position to make that assertion.

I believe Packer couldn't afford a loan on his house and was helped by family or friends.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

President Packer was a seminary teacher and administrator. Seminary teachers are typically paid the going rate for teachers in public schools, which never has been very high.

 

And it is not bumped up per kid. (He had ten)

Edited January 14, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

8 hours ago, rongo said:

What I don't get is why they need an annual income of $120,000+ when they're empty nesters and retirees in their 70s and 80s, and when they have their own pensions from their (almost exclusively lucrative) past professions, plus Social Security. 

You don't know they are empty nesters just because of age.

Many were self employed.  Not sure how that would affect pensions or SS.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, rongo said:

Just a seminary teacher and administrator? No other business interests or investments?

Have you seen his home (I believe it's worth more than $1 million)? Not bad, for a seminary teacher . . . of course, that might not have been possible until after receiving general authority salary. 

And they bought it with help from a friend when it was dirt cheap and lived there for decades, adding on as the kids came.  Ten kids living in Utah?  Not much left for savings.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

And my guess is, if any decline the money, it is very few. 

And your reasoning?

[Calm]

 

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

So, temporary assigned Elders and missionaries are to do it on their own dime, but retired apostles (who are already wealthy), require $120K a year, despite the fact that everything is already paid for? 

 

Who says everything is already paid for?

We have no clue if all of them were wealthy, income can be easily eaten up if you have lots of kids or kids with special needs or you step in to help other family members, like my dad did in paying for my grandma's home so she wouldn't get evicted, or even friends, like my dad did on occasion with less fortunate families, paying for getting a kid ready for a mission and supporting them on it, letting kids come stay rent free while they worked at summer jobs and Mom fed them of course even if that wasn't part of the deal.

[Calm]

Missionaries only do it on their own dime if they can, the Church supports many, sometimes through local ward members, other times missionaries in poorer countries are supported by the general missionary fund.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

All their transport, food, housing, etc. is probably paid for as well.  Everything is pretty much taken care of for them...and on top of all of that...they receive $120K.  

Any food, personal, transportation and housing is considered taxable income and should be reported on the pay stub as wages.  The housing may be taxable at a lower rate, but is still taxable and should be reported on the pay stub as a parsonage allowance.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

120K is a lot but its not obscene.  I am sure they pay taxes on this and they have plenty of expenses.  I think the best reason to pay this rate as it allows those who called to these positions to focus on their callings and not worry about money issues.  If they were paid 60K, they might be like me.  I am usually able to meet my needs but I still worry about my finances for next week or month.  At 120K I would not have that problem as I live a very modest lifestyle and would not have debt issues.

And who knows, maybe they leave all their savings from the income to the Church in their wills. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, JulieM said:

Here is info on their real estate holdings (if accurate):

http://www.mormoninfographics.com/2013/11/land-of-lucre-real-estate-holdings-of.html?m=1

This says nothing about how much they paid for the properties though, only what they might get if they sold them.  At this point, the property would be a drain on them through taxes.  One can be land rich and dirt poor.  I know a few of those here in Mapleton.  If they were willing to sell the home they have lived in for over 60 years, some were born there, and could get a fair price, they would be quite well off.  But heartsick.  Instead at times they struggle to pay the property taxes now it is a fashionable place to live rather than out in the boonies farm land and orchards.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

All their transport, food, housing, etc. is probably paid for as well.  Everything is pretty much taken care of for them...and on top of all of that...they receive $120K.  

Nope, housing was included in the tax return that was leaked and if that wasn't paid for in addition, it seems unlikely food or personal transportation is paid for (unlikely their wives are chauffeured around or have company cars; probably transportation that is relevant to work is taken care of).

[Ouagadougou]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Who says everything is already paid for?

We have no clue if all of them were wealthy, income can be easily eaten up if you have lots of kids or kids with special needs or you step in to help other family members, like my dad did in paying for my grandma's home so she wouldn't get evicted, or even friends, like my dad did on occasion with less fortunate families, paying for getting a kid ready for a mission and supporting them on it, letting kids come stay rent free while they worked at summer jobs and Mom fed them of course even if that wasn't part of the deal.

What's the average age on an apostle today?  They are not putting kids through college at their age...Also, what do they pay for themselves?  Nothing really...

They are not paying for transport and housing and food most likely...

The church already takes care of the vast majority of their needs, so $120k is overkill for somebody who is suppose to follow Christ's exampe below:

Matt 19

 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and giveto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

 23 ¶Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

"27 ¶Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 29 And every one that hath forsakenhouses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

 

[Ouagadougou]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

Missionaries only do it on their own dime if they can, the Church supports many, sometimes through local ward members, other times missionaries in poorer countries are supported by the general missionary fund.

And how many missionaries could you support on $120K x 15?  

[Kenngo1969]

58 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

What's the average age on an apostle today?  They are not putting kids through college at their age...Also, what do they pay for themselves?  Nothing really...

They are not paying for transport and housing and food most likely...

The church already takes care of the vast majority of their needs, so $120k is overkill for somebody who is suppose to follow Christ's exampe [sic] below:

 

All of that ... All of it ... is pure supposition on your part. You have no idea whom they may be supporting or subsidizing, nor in what manner or to what degree they may be doing so, nor what their own expenses are. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Rain]

 

6 hours ago, rongo said:

No, I wouldn't. That's what's bothersome about them being paid $120,000 a year when they don't need it. 

How do you know? Do you know their medical expenses? How often they need to buy suits? Dry cleaning bills? Parental living situation? Disabled children? We really don't know anything of their needs.

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

Any food, personal, transportation and housing is considered taxable income and should be reported on the pay stub as wages.  The housing may be taxable at a lower rate, but is still taxable and should be reported on the pay stub as a parsonage allowance.

Just to be clear for others, assuming it is for them like it is for us. A car would be taxable. A plane ride and rental car when doing things for the church wouldn't, but those are not benefits. They would be tools just like an accountants computer or a yard guy's lawnmower.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Rain

[Duncan]

18 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

What's the average age on an apostle today?  They are not putting kids through college at their age...Also, what do they pay for themselves?  Nothing really...

They are not paying for transport and housing and food most likely...

The church already takes care of the vast majority of their needs, so $120k is overkill for somebody who is suppose to follow Christ's exampe below:

Matt 19

 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and giveto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

 23 ¶Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

"27 ¶Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 29 And every one that hath forsakenhouses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

 

why did you quote from Matthew and not Luke 19:1-9?

1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.

 2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchæus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

 3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the ^apress, because he was little of stature.

 4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.

 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchæus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

 6 And he made haste, and came down, and ^areceived him joyfully.

 7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

 8 And Zacchæus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him ^afourfold.

 9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Says he was blessed for giving half of everything and the other was asked to give everything, maybe discipleship is expected from everyone but what Christ asks of us is different for everyone

Edited January 14, 2017 by Duncan

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe Packer couldn't afford a loan on his house and was helped by family or friends.

It's a well known fact that president packer lived in a multimillion dollar house and had a million dollar summer home in Hebert valley so I wouldn't feel too bad for him. Seems he did pretty good on his seminary pay

[sjdawg]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it has already been pointed out here that they don't necessarily take the stipend. Unless you are privy to their individual circumstances, I think your blanket contempt is misplaced.

Are we aware of anyone who doesn't accept the stipend?   Or is this rumor only?

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It's a well known fact that president packer lived in a multimillion dollar house and had a million dollar summer home in Hebert valley so I wouldn't feel too bad for him. Seems he did pretty good on his seminary pay

Not as a seminary teacher he didn't.

[Rain]

16 minutes ago, Duncan said:

why did you quote from Matthew and not Luke 19:1-9?

1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.

 2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchæus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

 3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the ^apress, because he was little of stature.

 4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.

 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchæus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

 6 And he made haste, and came down, and ^areceived him joyfully.

 7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

 8 And Zacchæus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him ^afourfold.

 9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Says he was blessed for giving half of everything and the other was asked to give everything, maybe discipleship is expected from everyone but what Christ asks of us is different for everyone

How true. And sometimes it comes in seasons too. Looking back it is interesting to me when the Lord has inspired us to help more people monetarily and other times less and still other times to be helped.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Rain

[sjdawg]

38 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

All of that ... All of it ... is pure supposition on your part. You have no idea whom they may be supporting or subsidizing, nor in what manner or to what degree they may be doing so, nor what their own expenses are. 

True.   I'm certain several of the apostles are supporting their 60 year old children while they struggle through the costs of going to University.

[Danzo]

27 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

How do you know? Do you know their medical expenses? How often they need to buy suits? Dry cleaning bills? Parental living situation? Disabled children? We really don't know anything g of their needs.

Just to be clear for others, assuming it is for them like it is for us. A car would be taxable. A plane ride and rental car when doing things for the church wouldn't, but those are not benefits. They would be tools just like an accountants computer or a yard guy's lawnmower.

All personal use of vehicles would be considered wages.  Meals without a business purpose would be wages. All personal travel, including commuting would be wages.

[Calm]

My parents bought a house in the early 70s in the Bay Area for $55,000.  In the late 80s they sold it for $350,000 having done nothing to the house save fixed up the yard some.  The value of the house today is probably over a million.  If they had lived as long in their house as Elder Packer did his, they probably could say they had a multimillion house as well.

My grandparents bought their house for less than $10,000 back in the 30s iirc and sold it for 10 times as much in the 80s.

Huge difference in buying a multimillion dollar home and having an average/below average semirural home turn multimillion around you due to everyone and their dog wanting to move into the area 30 years later.

The value of a house going up does nothing for you unless you use it in a new mortgage or sell it.  If all you do is sit on your house and live in it and never plan on moving or using it as collateral, having its value going up isn't a good thing because you end up paying more in property tax.  I have a friend who had to move out of his home because his pension was not able to cover the increased property taxes as values in our area jumped ridiculously practically overnight.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

All personal use of vehicles would be considered wages.  Meals without a business purpose would be wages. All personal travel, including commuting would be wages.

It seems much easier to just keep making speculative claims without actually paying attention to someone who actually knows something.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

True.   I'm certain several of the apostles are supporting their 60 year old children while they struggle through the costs of going to University.

I will be supporting my daughter when she is 60 and if she can manage college then, we will be joyful because she certainly can't manage now.

Last I heard, having grown children with disabilities didn't disqualify you from getting called as a GA.  Or having your elderly parents live with you because they can't afford to be on their own.