MormonLeaks publishes docs on GA pay, meetings

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

The church takes in billions of dollars a year but can't afford to pay for basic janitorial services.  But at the same time, it can pay apostles a combined $1.8 million a year, despite the fact that most of these men are already retired and wealthy.  Keep scrubbing away!  You sound like the quintessential "yes-man."  I, on the other hand, have openly refused to clean the church when I have been asked.  

http://www.businessinsider.com/fancy-mormon-temples-2014-8

There is a difference between "can't" and "chooses not to so they can put the money to other costs".

We have no idea what happens to the wages the Apostles are given and have no right to know.  For all we know, they end up giving the money to their local wards because they aren't able to help out with the janitorial services.  They also may be greedy bastards who have their money in a vault and spend all their free time counting it.  Whatever their choice, God judges them for it and they will judge themselves in the next life when they understand what was and wasn't done with their property.  And I bet they will have much more sorrow if it turns out they could have done more and didn't than most of us.

I do not want to know with the intimacy that they encounter the suffering of the Saints and others through the world.  If they have hardness in their hearts after that, it is going to take effort and pain to soften them.  However, I see nothing to indicate that is the case with any of them though they aren't living in sackcloth and ashes either.  They also know better than most I suspect how money doesn't always solve problems, but can add to the chaos of poverty if not given with care and awareness of cultural context,

Edited January 14, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

Is anyone still thinking this kind of transparency would cut done on criticism overall rather than just changing the target of it?

[rongo]

3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

President Monson has worked most most of his adult life for the Church. Was he supposed to tell his family "I'm off to serve the Church, so good luck with surviving"?

Of course not. President Monson is a glaring outlier, given his age at the time of call. He held some paid positions on Church boards before that was discontinued in lieu of the salary. 

I personally think that a modest living allowance is somewhere south of $120,000, though. Especially once the cost of raising a family is dramatically reduced (i.e., once the kids are grown).

[Ouagadougou]

16 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The member cleaning program has nothing to do with saving money.  The purpose of the program is to allow opportunities for members to grow, serve, and build their testimonies together.  Please see the link below for additional resources and understanding.

https://www.lds.org/callings/meetinghouse-care?lang=eng

Your refusal to help when asked is troubling.  It would seem to condptradict the teachings of the Savior in Matthew 23:11 that "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."  Is their any task that needed doing that the Savior would consider himself above doing?

I would argue that the member cleaning program is all about saving money, IMO.  Three hours of church, along with a multitude of other meetings/events each week, isn't enough for members to grow spiritually?  This idea that I can only grow closer to God spiritually if I accept to vacuum a chapel is ludicrous.  

What contradicts the Savior's teachings is the fact that already wealthy apostles receive nearly twice the US national average for income, while the average worker bee members do all of their church work for free.  Also, apostles are getting paid for their work on Sunday, since they receive a salary from the church.  

[Scott Lloyd]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which house are you talking about?  One of them they bought and added on to as their kids grew, often by their own labor.  A house comfortably fitting 10 kids is likely to be pretty big.  Add to that they had cows, grew hay, etc...it was originally a good stretch of property in a poorer, rural area that is now high end real estate.

Is rongo still beating this drum? I thought this had been responded to. 

[rongo]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

I've made no spin.  I recognize that it could be seen as problematic (even if it isn't) and because of this I have given alternate possible reasons against conculsions made. I make no judgment that it is problematic or isn't problematic because I lack sufficient knowledge to do so. I'm actually surprised that you automatically assume that it is problematic when I know of your testimony of the Lord's plan. 

I'm having difficulty seeing where executive pay and elaborate perks fit into the Lord's plan.  

Did you know that GAs also have an exclusive vacation ranch/resort for them and their families? A sister in our last ward's parents run it, and take care of the families (the families schedule through them). They have a lot of GA stories ---- nothing bad, but as you can imagine, some are more polite and gracious than others. 

None of this directly impacts the Lord's plan, of course.

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is anyone still thinking this kind of transparency would cut done on criticism overall rather than just changing the target of it?

On the contrary, the carping I've seen here has further convinced me of just the opposite. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

I'm having difficulty seeing where executive pay and elaborate perks fit into the Lord's plan.  

Did you know that GAs also have an exclusive vacation ranch/resort for them and their families? A sister in our last ward's parents run it, and take care of the families (the families schedule through them). They have a lot of GA stories ---- nothing bad, but as you can imagine, some are more polite and gracious than others. 

None of this directly impacts the Lord's plan, of course.

CFR on the exclusive vacation ranch/resort. 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I would argue that the member cleaning program is all about saving money, IMO.  Three hours of church, along with a multitude of other meetings/events each week, isn't enough for members to grow spiritually?  This idea that I can only grow closer to God spiritually if I accept to vacuum a chapel is ludicrous.  

What contradicts the Savior's teachings is the fact that already wealthy apostles receive nearly twice the US national average for income, while the average worker bee members do all of their church work for free.  Also, apostles are getting paid for their work on Sunday, since they receive a salary from the church.  

It is not just time, but what people do that matters.  A wider range of activities can open one's mind and heart better than a hyper focus on a few.

[Scott Lloyd]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

Depends on the country they live in and their circumstances.  When our kid went, it was $400 per missionary a month for the US and Canada, but who the money comes from is open.  A kid going from our ward a year or two ago paid nothing and was supported by our ward missionary fund.  One of our members (I don't know who, just that they exist because my husband was the clerk) has paid for several young persons to go out who could not have afforded otherwise.  Our bishop ensures that anyone who desires to go can go. I don't know if all bishops are that way, I hope so.  No family should have to struggle to make that payment.  I can see some refusing to let the bishop know they could use help in making the payment.  I have known families like that myself and we have attempted to help where we can (our bishop will just inform them it has been taken care of, they do have the right to refuse though).

I have heard reported by a few older couple missionaries that in some countries missionaries receive stipends they can send home to their families as their families could not survive otherwise.  I don't know if this is true, but I suspect it is.  Missions are important ways to help form future church leaders.  Even for purely practical reasons, it is a good idea for the Church to fund missionaries in countries where they need local leadership...which is in most areas outside the US and Canada, .I understand.

Father of a missionary here, and our monthly cost to support a missionary  (equalized among all missionary families in the Church) is $400 a month.

Incidentally, with the Church's new online donation system, it is easy to support individual missionaries. You just click on "Ward Missionary'" and a drop-down menu gives you the names of all the missionaries in the ward. You just pick one or more you want to donate money for. 

I recommend everyone do that. Support your favorite missionary today. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I agree it is unlikely that many of the Apostles have kids in college, at least for very long after they are called.  Bednar more than likely had some, but most are over 60...they might be helping kids pay off student loans or buy homes though.  

Are my wife and I the only people left in the Church who think that it isn't the parent's responsibility to pay for their kids' college or homes? Goodness gracious --- I graduated with no debt, with my wife and I working three jobs, and my kids will do the same. 

]

More likely after 5 years in the calling, they are choosing to help grandkids with college or missions.  That can amount to a good deal.  My father in law had probably at least 20 grandkids that had gone on missions by the time he died, at least 40 by now as the girls are going out as much as the boys.  He was also paying for the homes of one child and one grandchild and maybe helping out a lot more than I was aware of.  He contributed $10,000 to the deposit on the first home of everyone.  And he wasn't wealthy.

I don't think it's the Church's job or role to ensure that GAs can pay for grandchildren's college, missions, or homes. If that actually is one reason for such high salaries.

Sucessful men often have kids who aren't quite as successful.  My dad stepped in to help 4 out of his five kids, three for probably over 20 years, amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars.  When divorces occurred, he was there to ensure that finances didn't contribute to the stress.  Helped with postgraduate education to upgrade careers.

See above. I also don't think being able to help profligate or prodigal children/grandchildren should be factored into a modest living allowance. Or to ensure that finances don't contribute to the stress of children's/grandchildren's lives. It's nice when parents can do that, but I don't think it's something the Church should provide for via GA pay.

I suspect though that currently for the majority it is less a necessity to ensure [they can help] out family and friends and more of a choice.  I know if I were in that position, I would see the necessity of traveling meaning I wouldn't be available to be as strong as an emotional presence in my family's life or in my neighborhood and it would be a second best option to be able to feel comfortable about being able to contribute generous funds to my families for birthday and Christmas gifts, graduation presents and mission and college costs for grandkids and for families in my ward.

Wouldn't we all like to be able to do that! Are you seriously suggesting that "being able to feel comfortable about being able to contribute generous funds to my families for birthday and Christmas gifts, graduation presents and mission and college costs for grandkids and for families in my ward" is a compelling reason for GAs to be paid $120,000? I think that might be one of the worst justifications I've heard. That's not a modest living allowance. 

I took a part-time job just so I could have money I could give away without cutting into our own financial security.  Maybe having money they can contribute to local programs helps them endure the hardships they come in contact with during their global work over the years.

I think that, if desired, should come out of whatever retirement/investment income they have. You chose to work to be able to do that, but I don't think this money should be fronted to GAs who want to give money away, but can't get a part-time job because of their calling. Sorry.

Not having to examine the budget when they get home to find a few dollars they can spare, but being able to write a substantial check whenever they want to might mean a lot to them.

This is getting further into left field. GAs should be spared from "having to examine the budget when they get home to find a few dollars they can spare" [to help people with]?" "Being able to write a substantial check whenever they want to might mean a lot to them" is a good reason they should be paid so much as GAs? Good grief! If anything, shouldn't GAs be able to feel at least a little bit of the pressures and challenges the little guy feels? The modest living allowance should shield them from ever having to navigate opportunity cost?

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR on the exclusive vacation ranch/resort. 

I already told you. A sister in my last ward's parents. Her dad is Jay Silvester's brother (the famous LDS Olympic discus thrower). 

I don't have a link for you, Scott. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

I already told you. A sister in my last ward's parents. Her dad is Jay Silvester's brother (the famous LDS Olympic discus thrower). 

I don't have a link for you, Scott. 

So it's the old "I know a guy who knows a guy whose sister's father-in-law's aunt's half-brother's boss says it's a fact."

It's like the game of "telephone^ we played in school. By the time the whispered message gets to the last kid in line, it has gotten so garbled it scarcely bears any resemblance to the original. 

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Do you think people should have to sell their family home so they can live as unpaid GAs?

If they must, like with relocating. I don't think it's appropriate use of Church money if the purpose is to ensure that they don't have to sell a family home (i.e., so they can have 2+ homes in order to not have to sell the family home).

Help from the Church to relocate is different from a lifetime $120,000 per annum. 

Why would Salt Lake area GAs have to sell their family home at all?

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So it's the old "I know a guy who knows a guy whose sister's father-in-law's aunt's half-brother's boss says it's a fact."

It's like the game of "telephone^ we played in school. By the time the whispered message gets to the last kid in line, it has gotten so garbled it scarcely bears any resemblance to the original. 

I've met them and talked to them myself about it, if that means anything to you (when I learned what they did, it made for good conversation. Fascinating).

I'm sure it doesn't, though, Scott, so don't worry about it. Feel free to "neener, neener" that I can't provide a link. 

[Calm]

Define "exclusive"...high end or limited?

[JulieM]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So it's the old "I know a guy who knows a guy whose sister's father-in-law's aunt's half-brother's boss says it's a fact."

It's like the game of "telephone^ we played in school. By the time the whispered message gets to the last kid in line, it has gotten so garbled it scarcely bears any resemblance to the original. 

He gave you the name of the actual  person who schedules for the ranch and personally knows this man's daughter (she lives in his ward).  That's a pretty direct source and not at all what you describe above 

[Calm]

Not knowing details, I am not going to judge, but I can see there might be issues of privacy where family members don't want to worry about interruptions and picture taking while on holiday with Grandpa.  

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Pointing out that there may be a variety of needs over the lifetime of a GA, perhaps the first few years college kids; later helping them with a first home and taking care of parents; later on helping with grandkids or other families; medical needs of self and spouses that aren't covered by insurance like buying foods that are easier to prepare, clothing that doesn't need to be ironed, hiring someone to help clean the house or stay with one's spouse while out of town; given that in their travels they are probably exposed to a lot of people in need, I wouldn't be surprised if many were involved personally in charity efforts...the list for them of possible financial expenses is as endless as it is in every other person's life.

I guess we have different ideas of wants vs. needs. And different ideas that being a GA should mean that a modest living allowance should be able to enable a GA to shield all of his posterity from financial struggle, paying for their own college, etc.

Recognizing that doesn't mean we think each GA must deal with each need or that they need any help from the Church to do so.

Then why the long laundry list of things they would need the salary for?

Assuming that every GA doesn't need any assistance seems as poorly thought out to me as assuming they all do.

I don't consider your examples to be "needed assistance." They are a part of life for most people, but not a right that the Church needs to provide its general authorities. Especially in a modest living allowance.

 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

He gave you the name of the actual  person who schedules for the ranch and personally knows this man's daughter (she lives in his ward).  That's a pretty direct source and not at all what you describe above 

I am not debating the existence, but it is possible his friend is not aware of or wanting to share the more confidential aspects of the park.

[rongo]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Define "exclusive"...high end or limited?

Exclusive to general authorities and their families. 

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I am not debating the existence, but it is possible his friend is not aware of or wanting to share the more confidential aspects of the park.

I talked to her parents themselves while they were visiting their daughter. Wonderful people! When I learned that he's Jay Silvester's brother, I showed him the chapter on him in "Win If You Will: Thirteen Latter-day Saints Show You How" (Vernon Law, Harmon Killebrew, Gene Fullmer, Billy Casper, Bernard Fischer, George Romney, J. Willard Marriott, Don Lind, G. Homer Durham, etc.). They were surprised that anyone my age knew who Jay Silvester is!  

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, rongo said:

I guess we have different ideas of wants vs. needs. And different ideas that being a GA should mean that a modest living allowance should be able to enable a GA to shield all of his posterity from financial struggle, paying for their own college, etc.

You are reframing my comments as absolutes when they are not.  This does not seem like a reasonable way to respond to me.

 Just because my dad helped me a few times substantially and helped a myriad of others over his lifetime doesn't mean he coddled anyone.  In fact, a lot of his gifts went to people who had proven they were willing to work hard and he only stepped in to help with the last few steps so failure could be turned into success or deprivation into moderate comfort.  Those of us who didn't need it are getting to wait for our inheritance assuming Mom doesn't need it.  Anything I get is going straight into the house to pay it off and fix a few things to make it easier to sell (crappy shower and no bath in the master bathroom, new rugs instead of the puke pastels through the house, more efficient windows).

There is a real joy in being able to be charitable to those we love and those we admire and those we pity.  I would hate to think that being GAs took many of those opportunities to give others new chances in their lives away.  Not suggesting the Church should turn them into money trees whenever someone asks.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

Exclusive to general authorities and their families. 

They don't invite anyone else to the park to share it with them or sell spots when it is not in reserved?  How big is it?  Can more than one family be there at a time?  Would he share with you confidential meetings taking place? (Just asking to figure out the situation, not criticize)

Edited January 14, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

I talked to her parents themselves while they were visiting their daughter. Wonderful people! 

And you think they would share specific confidential details with you or their children?

Are we talking about just apostles' families or all GAs?  The park could be somewhat crowded depending on accommodations with 250ish families seeking to use it.