Jeanne Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 38 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: There is the story of the farm hand that could sleep during a storm. SEE I loved this story. And should heed to it ..in practical ways as well.
Popular Post cinepro Posted October 3, 2016 Popular Post Posted October 3, 2016 When I heard Ballard's "where will you go?" comment, I was shocked at the sudden sense of pity I felt for anyone who was staying in the Church because they were so isolated and unimaginative that they couldn't imagine their life without it. I've heard a lot of pathetic reasons to go to Church (family pressure, social ties, business networking), but "not knowing where to otherwise go" has to be the most pathetic. If someone isn't finding joy in attending and serving in the Church, then the correct answer would be "absolutely anywhere." I stay in the Church for many reasons, but not knowing what I would do without the Church isn't one of them. 8
waveslider Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: I found the talk condescending. "Where will you go?" sounds an awful lot like an abusive husband talking to his battered wife. Go ahead leave, but what will you do? How will you support yourself? etc etc. The questions presume that leaving the church also means leaving God. It presumes that leaving the church means one stops being a Christian. It presumes that, no matter how bad things, there is nothing better for any person. It presumes a person would need to be an idiot to leave. It presumes "the church" is the most important thing, regardless of whether or not it is having a negative impact on a person's personal relationship with God. The talk presumes a lot and seems to gloat over those who have left. Also, a couple of questions- If the church is the Good ship zion, AKA as the one true church of God, and IF Christ is at the helm during this storm, when will Jesus calm the storm? Why hasn't it happened yet? Is Jesus sleeping and needs to be awakened? I found that I relate to this talk on a completely different level than you apparently have. I suppose it would sound condescending if the choice to leave, or even come into the church in the first place, were merely based solely upon logic. It is hard to believe logically that this church, run by it's very human, and therefore flawed, leaders, is actually the very church that Christ himself set up and leads by revelation, and that there are no others that are so formed and led. If instead the Holy Spirit guides us, it transcends logic. When I first gained a testimony I actually couldn't believe the Book Of Mormon could possibly be true. My logic said to leave the church. God speaking through His Holy Spirit told me otherwise, in no uncertain terms. I later found the flawed thinking I had because I believed the false propaganda about the BOM, but that is besides the point. I have found that I can relate very well to the question of, "Where will you go?" I choose to follow Christ, no matter where it takes me. It always takes me back to the Church, because I find everything else is either completely watered down, and not truly nurturing that Spirit as much as His church does, or even in some rare cases flat out lies where I find no Holy Spirit testifying of any truth at all. I find the Spirit still tells me that this is Christ's church. I have gone through some very testing, and trying, times. The only thing that kept me going, and not just giving up on life itself, was a similar set of questions, "What else am I going to do, because I still want to follow Christ no matter what?" "Who else would I follow?, my own self (logic and rationalizations, based off of less information than an all knowing and all powerful God)? No! Someone else?" No! There truly is no where else to go for me! I know that God has told me this is where all the that is necessary is right here in this church. I don't want to close off that tap of the, "Living Water," that Christ told the Samaritan woman of, at the well. I know if I were to leave the Church, I would find that tap running dry at the same time, until I again turned unto Christ and chose to follow Him wherever He leads me, even when my own logic doesn't understand why. There are always things that I don't understand, and I'm quite certain it is the same for everyone, but this is why we are not able to stand on, "borrowed light." As far as Christ calming the seas, we are told it will happen after this Earth is cleansed from iniquity and he comes to reign on Earth for the Millennium. We are told, all throughout the scriptures, and in modern day revelation, that the seas will actually get rougher before this happens. Daniel and Revelations comes to the top of my mind. Lehi had a dream that described what we need to do to get through these rough seas, (mists of darkness). It means to hold to the word of God, which means His Spirit. It doesn't mean the scriptures because they aren't necessarily the word of God, but do contain them and without that Spirit we won't understand them the way they are meant to be anyway: "20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21 1
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 20 hours ago, Five Solas said: While not ceasing to be God. It's what theologians call the Hypostatic Union. But that's a rather different context than what theplains & Tacenda were discussing. And certainly not what Joseph Smith described in the King Follett Sermon (that Jim was referring to). --Erik Yeah, would you explain that there union in simple terms even I can understand?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, cinepro said: When I heard Ballard's "where will you go?" comment, I was shocked at the sudden sense of pity I felt for anyone who was staying in the Church because they were so isolated and unimaginative that they couldn't imagine their life without it. I've heard a lot of pathetic reasons to go to Church (family pressure, social ties, business networking), but "not knowing where to otherwise go" has to be the most pathetic. If someone isn't finding joy in attending and serving in the Church, then the correct answer would be "absolutely anywhere." I stay in the Church for many reasons, but not knowing what I would do without the Church isn't one of them. Again, it's not "where will you go?" but "To whom shall we go?" I wonder if you feel the same sense of shock and pity for Peter and the other apostles when you read the New Testament account from which this question is taken wherein Peter pledges their collective loyalty to Jesus. Edited October 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 3
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: I found the talk condescending. "Where will you go?" sounds an awful lot like an abusive husband talking to his battered wife. Tried to post this earlier, but the board system ate it somehow. This strikes me as a distortion and a contrived attempt to find fault. The question is not "where will you go?" but "To whom shall we go?" You have not only shifted it from the first person to the second person, but you have ignored the context of the New Testament account from which the question is taken. It, of course, is the account in which some of Christ's followers became disaffected and He asked His disciples, "Will ye also go away?" Peter's earnest reply was "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life." Peter here, by way of a rhetorical question, was affirming their collective commitment to Christ, loyalty, understanding, faith and testimony to Christ and His doctrine. This, by my reading, is the theme of Elder Ballard's address. 3
Johnnie Cake Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) Sorry Scott but the entire talk is off putting and offensive Quote Today is no different. For some, Christ’s invitation to believe and remain continues to be hard—or difficult to accept. Some disciples struggle to understand a specific Church policy or teaching. Others find concerns in our history or in the imperfections of some members and leaders, past and present. Still others find it difficult to live a religion that requires so much. Finally, some have become “weary in well-doing” [D&C 64:33]. … It completely misses the mark as to why many leave the church...and it reinforces in members mind the stereotypes promoted by the church as to why people leave...few if any that are representative of reality...most leave because they've concluded that the church simply isn't what it claims to be and until Ballard understand s this...he will never fully understands why people leave his good ship Zion Edited October 3, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Jeanne Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, cinepro said: When I heard Ballard's "where will you go?" comment, I was shocked at the sudden sense of pity I felt for anyone who was staying in the Church because they were so isolated and unimaginative that they couldn't imagine their life without it. I've heard a lot of pathetic reasons to go to Church (family pressure, social ties, business networking), but "not knowing where to otherwise go" has to be the most pathetic. If someone isn't finding joy in attending and serving in the Church, then the correct answer would be "absolutely anywhere." I stay in the Church for many reasons, but not knowing what I would do without the Church isn't one of them. Contrary to what people might think..those of us who have left the church really are not lost..or the dregs of society..with no place to go..or purpose in life. There is life after mormonism. Really! I don't own a fancy ship...maybe just kind of a kayak that I power on my own..moving fro..and sometimes back on common sense, faith in myself and intuition and prayer. Not run by any special power but the strength of what I know and where i want to go. Edited October 3, 2016 by Jeanne 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 26 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Sorry Scott but the entire talk is off putting and offensive It completely misses the mark as to why many leave the church...and it reinforces in members mind the stereotypes promoted by the church as to why people leave...few if any that are representative of reality...most leave because they've concluded that the church simply isn't what it claims to be and until Ballard understand s this...he will never fully understands why people leave his good ship Zion He understands a good deal more than you are willing to acknowledge. It's my considered opinion that the reasons people leave the Church are manifold and varied. For you to dismiss any of them as not "representative of reality" reflects arrogance on your part. And that's what I find off-putting and offensive.
JLHPROF Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 I've always said if I left Mormonism I'd probably become an Atheist. If Mormonism isn't true I don't see the point in any other religion. So, as so many have, I would answer the question "to whom would I go" with "myself". 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I've always said if I left Mormonism I'd probably become an Atheist. If Mormonism isn't true I don't see the point in any other religion. So, as so many have, I would answer the question "to whom would I go" with "myself". Contrary to the idea of desperation and entrapment that some here are trying to purvey, it reflects a sense of confidence, commitment and understanding that the course one is on is true and correct and will eventually lead to a destination of peace and joy. It's another way of saying what is expressed repeatedly in the scriptures, that there is no other name under heaven than Jesus Christ whereby mortal men and women can be saved. Edited October 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 2
cinepro Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: This strikes me as a distortion of his message and a contrived reason to find fault. The question is not "Where will you go?" but "To whom shall we go?". Besides shifting the voice from first-person to second-person, you are ignoring the background. It is, of course, taken from the account where some of Christ's followers were offended and he asked his disciples, "Will ye also go away." Peter's response, "To whom shall we go?" was a rhetorical question communicating dedication to the Master, commitment, understanding, faith, testimony. This is what I see in Elder Ballard's talk theme. Might want to brush up on your shorthand... If you choose to become inactive or to leave the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where will you go? What will you do? (3:50) https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/media/session_4_talk_9/5151870518001?lang=eng Edited October 3, 2016 by cinepro 3
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 2 hours ago, cinepro said: When I heard Ballard's "where will you go?" comment, I was shocked at the sudden sense of pity I felt for anyone who was staying in the Church because they were so isolated and unimaginative that they couldn't imagine their life without it. I've heard a lot of pathetic reasons to go to Church (family pressure, social ties, business networking), but "not knowing where to otherwise go" has to be the most pathetic. If someone isn't finding joy in attending and serving in the Church, then the correct answer would be "absolutely anywhere." I stay in the Church for many reasons, but not knowing what I would do without the Church isn't one of them. I think the second half of Jesus's comment is implied in that question. In other words no one else has the way to eternal life. If it is a more secular "I have nowhere to go" then I would instead advise the person in question to get a life. 1
cinepro Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: I think the second half of Jesus's comment is implied in that question. In other words no one else has the way to eternal life. If it is a more secular "I have nowhere to go" then I would instead advise the person in question to get a life. The problem is that in most cases I'm aware of, people aren't buying the LDS theory of the Plan of Salvation and Atonement anymore. It would be like a Scientologist asking me how I will ever reach the level of Operating Thetan VIII without following L. Ron Hubbard ("Where will you go?"). My response would be that I don't believe that such a "level" even exists, not that I was looking for another way to reach it. I did have one friend who, after decades of struggle, finally came out of the closet and left the Church. He explained to me that he still believed in the gospel in general, but that he could no longer live with the kind of loneliness, pain and depression that it was giving him personally. So there can be people who still "believe", but no longer follow the program. But I think this is pretty rare.
Johnnie Cake Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: He understands a good deal more than you are willing to acknowledge. It's my considered opinion that the reasons people leave the Church are manifold and varied. For you to dismiss any of them as not "representative of reality" reflects arrogance on your part. And that's what I find off-putting and offensive. Sorry to offend you...and yes I agree that the reasons members leave is manifold and varied...but to ignore the reason most members leave is just living in denial Edited October 3, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 13 minutes ago, cinepro said: The problem is that in most cases I'm aware of, people aren't buying the LDS theory of the Plan of Salvation and Atonement anymore. It would be like a Scientologist asking me how I will ever reach the level of Operating Thetan VIII without following L. Ron Hubbard ("Where will you go?"). My response would be that I don't believe that such a "level" even exists, not that I was looking for another way to reach it. I did have one friend who, after decades of struggle, finally came out of the closet and left the Church. He explained to me that he still believed in the gospel in general, but that he could no longer live with the kind of loneliness, pain and depression that it was giving him personally. So there can be people who still "believe", but no longer follow the program. But I think this is pretty rare. Perhaps, but at that point what does the Church have to offer in any case? They aren't in the position of Peter and the Apostles who asked where else they would go. I wouldn't kick someone out just because they are there for social reasons or because they feel it is a way to do good but I am also not going to suggest that that limited participation is a valid 'path' (for lack of a better word) in the eyes of God. It is something we allow and encourage because we hope they will commit again to the full thing. I sympathize with the friend. I just cope with the loneliness, pain, and depression. At least so far. 2
Tacenda Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I've always said if I left Mormonism I'd probably become an Atheist. If Mormonism isn't true I don't see the point in any other religion. So, as so many have, I would answer the question "to whom would I go" with "myself". That is so sad. Your Mormonism failed you in the belief of a Saviour then, imo.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) On 10/3/2016 at 8:22 AM, Johnnie Cake said: Don't parse my words...I'm merely saying that Elder Ballard's premise is misguided...that we leave to gain a more happy state...because the church does not make us happy...that we are happier out of the church than in... When he asks were shall we go...He seems not to understand how amazing life is out side of the Mormon paradigm The response I originally had here was not intended to go with this post but with another one. Edited October 4, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
HappyJackWagon Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Tried to post this earlier, but the board system ate it somehow. This strikes me as a distortion and a contrived attempt to find fault. The question is not "where will you go?" but "To whom shall we go?" You have not only shifted it from the first person to the second person, but you have ignored the context of the New Testament account from which the question is taken. It, of course, is the account in which some of Christ's followers became disaffected and He asked His disciples, "Will ye also go away?" Peter's earnest reply was "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life." Peter here, by way of a rhetorical question, was affirming their collective commitment to Christ, loyalty, understanding, faith and testimony to Christ and His doctrine. This, by my reading, is the theme of Elder Ballard's address. It might be a little bit better IF you were correct. But unfortunately Elder Ballard's words were much more accusatory. "Where will you go?" You may want to reread it. His talk was an admission that he fundamentally does not understand the problem. He can't conceive of why anyone would leave or what they would do if they did leave. He has great resources available to him so I have to imagine he has the opportunity to understand. I hope some day he will accept the opportunity to understand. I hope he will not be dismissive of other people's journeys and be able to put off his narrow world view reflected in his lack of understanding. His experience is not every other person's experience. Hopefully through understanding he will someday develop the empathy he seems to be lacking on this issue.
Johnnie Cake Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: It's not self-evident that the reason most people leave is what you think it to be. No we leave because we believe the church is everything it claims to be...holds all the keys to eternal life, is the vehicle through which we hold on to our families throughout eternity, the means to godhood, eternal procreation and worlds without end...and none of us who leave really want any of that...so my mistake Scott, you saw through my thinly vailed excuses...you are right...we leave because we actually believe the church is what it claims to be...oh and because we want to sin and have an excuse to get rid of those home teachers...yes we are that shallow. Thanks for exposing me and my ilk Scott. Oh and I forgot to mention that other stereo typed reason we leave... We're lazy and Being a member is just too hard...Thanks for exposing our lies Scott and our misconceived notions that we leave due to unbelief...how silly of us to think we actually know why we leave...thank you for exposing our lies and sharing the real reasons...for surely we wouldn't know our own reasons for leaving would we Scott...but thanks for informing us of our own misunderstandings. Your a good man Scott Edited October 4, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
HappyJackWagon Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: No we leave because we believe the church is everything it claims to be...holds all the keys to eternal life, is the vehicle through which we hold on to our families throughout eternity, the means to godhood, eternal procreation and worlds without end...My mistake Scott, you saw through my thinly vailed excuses...you are right...we leave because we believe the church is what it claims to be...oh and because we want to sin...yes we are that shallow. Thanks for exposing me and my ilk Scott. It's not Scott's fault. It really isn't. He's following the words of prophets and apostles who are always right.
theplains Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I've always said if I left Mormonism I'd probably become an Atheist. If Mormonism isn't true I don't see the point in any other religion. So, as so many have, I would answer the question "to whom would I go" with "myself". Being a member of a religion or a certain sect of Christianity doesn't save you. Only Jesus does. If Mormonism is proven false in the end and the Book of Mormon is not a historical account of actual events, the Bible still remains. If Christ is not risen, then my faith is also in vain. As I have heard said before ... don't throw the baby out with the bath water :-) Regards, Jim
JLHPROF Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, Tacenda said: That is so sad. Your Mormonism failed you in the belief of a Saviour then, imo. Not at all. The Savior is not independent of the principles contained in Mormonism, and Mormonism requires the Savior. If Mormonism's teachings on the Savior could ever be proved false (something I can't imagine) then no other teaching on the Savior would have any purpose. The Savior I follow was a spirit child of God like me and was chosen in the pre-mortal council to pay for my sins. If I cease to believe that I am not going to start believing in some Trinitarian or Evangelical concept of a Savior which beggars logic and reason. Quote Being a member of a religion or a certain sect of Christianity doesn't save you. Only Jesus does. If Mormonism is proven false in the end and the Book of Mormon is not a historical account of actual events, the Bible still remains. If Christ is not risen, then my faith is also in vain. As I have heard said before ... don't throw the baby out with the bath water :-) Regards, Jim Knowledge of Christ saves us. We cannot accept what we do not know. The knowledge of Christ in other sects and religions makes little sense to me. The knowledge of Christ contained in Mormonism makes perfect sense to me. If it were proven false I would not know Christ in whom to have faith. I cannot have faith in a concept of Christ that makes no sense to me. (There is a prophetic quote or scripture to this effect, referencing not being able to have faith in something you cannot know, but it escapes me). Oh, and Christ said all will be saved except the sons of perdition. So being saved is not something I worry about. I am more concerned with what my saved situation will be than getting saved. Edited October 4, 2016 by JLHPROF
Popular Post california boy Posted October 4, 2016 Popular Post Posted October 4, 2016 Canard, I think your comments are dead on. This is exactly how many who have left the church feel. And Scott, I think your comments are dead on. This is exactly how many who have found the church to be their life path feel. If one looks at who posts on this board, it is clear that about half are very content with the church. They find peace and happiness and joy in the gospel. They find a spiritual connection with God that they wouldn't give up for anything. They find joy and happiness in their family and friends that share this common belief. And they defend that institution against any who threatens it. And then there is the other half that post here. Some struggle daily with their involvement in the church. They love it, and they hate it. They don't find the same joy and peace that Scott speaks of They are trying to get the Mormon paradigm to fit into their lives, but it just won't work no matter how much they try to pry and force the pieces to fit. For some, they break out of this conflict and find a life where things do come together for them and it brings with it a peace and joy and spirituality that they could never enjoy within the construct of Mormonism. Is it possible for those within the church to acknowledge that while the church completes their lives, perhaps others find no such happiness and joy within the church? Their path back to God lies outside the walls of Mormonism. They probably will never return to Mormonism. 5
JLHPROF Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 12 minutes ago, california boy said: Is it possible for those within the church to acknowledge that while the church completes their lives, perhaps others find no such happiness and joy within the church? Quote Their path back to God lies outside the walls of Mormonism. They probably will never return to Mormonism. Two very separate issues. Personal happiness and comfort have no direct correlation with the way back to God. You can be happy on the right road or the wrong road. You can be miserable on the right road or the wrong road. In the end the straight and narrow way is the one and only way back to God.
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