Elder M. Russell Ballard: "To Whom Shall We Go"

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, california boy said:

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.  No where in scripture that is not written by a Mormon does it say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints saves you.  Temple ordinances is a Mormon construct.  I get that you feel differently.  Like I said, your path requires you to believe that.  Mine requires me to believe only in Christ and strive to be more like Him.  

So you are denying something I hold to as a matter of religious faith and conviction.

Some things can be neither proven nor falsified by physical evidence or debate. This is one of those things.

I hope you will understand, though, why when you asked us in a prior post ...

Quote

Is it possible for those within the church to acknowledge that while the church completes their lives, perhaps others find no such happiness and joy within the church?  Their path back to God lies outside the walls of Mormonism.  They probably will never return to Mormonism.

... I can't assent to the statement that "their path to God lies outside the walls of Mormonism." "Mormonism" (so-called) incorporates the path to God, and believing in Christ and striving to be more like Him entails accepting the doctrines and saving ordinances that are in the Church He Himself founded and restored in latter days.

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Whether or not you give a (whatever the off-color word was you used that the system automatically replaced with four asterisks) what he says, he has a duty as a watchman on the tower to raise a warning voice. And that is true whether or not you "buy the stuff he's selling," particularly when those who are angered by his words, however kindly and sympathetically they are expressed, try to poison the minds of others against receiving them.

And some who hear them will be influenced by his words and will profit thereby.

Scott...in my limited posting status that the powers that be have placed me in...I do not have the ability to edit posts (after so many minutes have passed I lose the ability to edit).  I regret the tone that this thread has taken in good part due to the tone of my own posts.  I apologize to you and the other members of this board for the things I've posted that are offensive to the good believers on this board.  I'm not looking to pick a fight with the Latter Day Saint people...but there are times that I do allow my frustrations with the leaders of the church to flow through to some of the things I post online.  I do not think that Elder Ballard is a bad man and in fact I'm sure that he had nothing but good intentions when he both prepared and gave his address.  That said, I wonder if he is aware of or even cares about the ramifications his comments have in mixed faith marriages where one is a believer and the other a non-believer?  Or if he understands how his words impact and hurt families when one or more family members have left the church. Words matter and his words, irrespective of his intentions, act as a wedge in marriages and families striving to find common ground upon which to survive.  If Elder Ballard is even aware of the damage his words inflict in these families and marriages...he doesn't seem to show it. 

He is in a position where members hang on his every word.  He has the power to offer words of comfort and compassion yet instead his words are driving families and marriages apart.  does he even know that his words have this consequence?  If not he should...maybe next time you see him...please let him know.  Thanks

Edited October 4, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[california boy]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Being "Christlike" has everything to do with organized religion.  Anyone who thinks they can become like Christ any other way hasn't studied Christ.

Was Christ baptized?  Did he command us to be baptized?
Did Christ receive the Holy Ghost?  Did he promise that we should receive the Holy Ghost?
Did Christ serve a mission?  Did he command missionary work?
Did Christ gather with his followers?  Did he command his followers to gather together?
Did Christ call Apostles as leaders?
Did Christ build a Church (organized religion)?  Matt 16:18/Matt 18:17
Did Christ follow his own ideas on religion or did he do only as he was commanded and emulated what he had seen his Father do?
Did Christ partake of and command the taking of sacrament?
Did Christ honor an earthly building (temple) as God's house?
Did Christ study the scriptures (as they existed in his day)?

Christ both practiced and commanded organized religion.  Pretending you can be "Christlike" without this shows a lack of understanding of Christ.
If people truly wanted to be Christlike, running away from organized religion is the last thing they would be doing.

You want to be Christlike?  Be baptized like Christ was.  Attend meetings like Christ did.  Follow your head like Christ did.  Pray and fast like Christ did.  Partake of the Sacrament like Christ did.  Honor the temple like Christ did.  Serve proselyting missions like Christ did.  Give everything you have to the building up of God's kingdom on the earth like Christ did.  Reject and cast out all sin, devils, illness and corruption like Christ did.
THAT is how you are Christlike.

In order to believe what you have written, one would have to trust that what the church teaches  is true.  I could fill this page with reasons why I don't trust the church one bit and I certainly do not think they are teaching the same principles that Christ taught.   While the church makes very bold claims, the actual actions of the church fall far short of those claims.  No I do not believe Christ is running the Mormon church.  That has become even more apparent in recent times.  

 I am not here to tear down another's belief. If you find comfort in believing such claims, then I encourage you to continue on that path.  I personally find the path that the church lays out for me to be quite toxic and ill advised.

While Christ called men to spread His message, there is no record of Him attending regular organized religious services.  He rarely even went into a synagogue.  And this was after he called his apostles.  Why was he going to another church whose leaders he despised if they were the path to salvation.  What church was Christ baptized into?  Did Christ need a church to gather his followers?  How many times in Christ's lifetime did he take the sacrament?  Did he do it weekly?  Did he go to an organized religion to partake of the sacrament?  Did Christ attend the temple?  Were they doing endowments? I thought when Christ told peter that upon this rock I will build my church he was referring to the rock of revelation .  Isn't that what Mormons believe?  Did Christ teach that you have to be a member of organized religion in order to receive revelation?  Do you think those outside of organized religion can receive revelation?  Did Joseph Smith receive revelation outside of organized religion?  Did Christ teach a new commandment?  I obviously could go on and on about the questions you posed.  They bring up as many questions as they answer.  My purpose is not to tear down your beliefs.  I realize how important those beliefs are for you.  But that doesn't mean that all of Gods children are required to think exactly like you are to be saved.  If that were true, then less than one percent of Gods children will ever return to him.  Is that a narrow enough path for you?

I don't think that the only people that Christ will welcome into his kingdom are people that have followed your outline. I think Christ is going to be much more interested in who we are as a person rather than how many sacrament meetings we have attended.  

[california boy]

35 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you are denying something I hold to as a matter of religious faith and conviction.

Some things can be neither proven nor falsified by physical evidence or debate. This is one of those things.

I hope you will understand, though, why when you asked us in a prior post ...

... I can't assent to the statement that "their path to God lies outside the walls of Mormonism." "Mormonism" (so-called) incorporates the path to God, and believing in Christ and striving to be more like Him entails accepting the doctrines and saving ordinances that are in the Church He Himself founded and restored in latter days.

 

This only confirms what I wrote here.

 

Quote

 

Canard,  I think your comments are dead on.  This is exactly how many who have left the church feel.  

And Scott, I think your comments are dead on.  This is exactly how many who have found the church to be their life path feel.

If one looks at who posts on this board, it is clear that about half are very content with the church.  They find peace and happiness and joy in the gospel.  They find a spiritual connection with God that they wouldn't give up for anything.  They find joy and happiness in their family and friends that share this common belief.  And they defend that institution against any who threatens it.

And then there is the other half that post here.  Some struggle daily with their involvement in the church.  They love it, and they hate it.  They don't find the same joy and peace that Scott speaks of  They are trying to get the Mormon paradigm  to fit into their lives, but it just won't work no matter how much they try to pry and force the pieces to fit.  For some, they break out of this conflict and find a life where things do come together for them and it brings with it a peace and joy and spirituality that they could never enjoy within the construct of Mormonism.

Is it possible for those within the church to acknowledge that while the church completes their lives, perhaps others find no such happiness and joy within the church?  Their path back to God lies outside the walls of Mormonism.  They probably will never return to Mormonism.

 

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Sorry, I only playfully nip.

Just like my dog

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I do not have the ability to edit posts (after so many minutes have passed I lose the ability to edit). 

That is a glitch on the board.  I can't edit often when I am on my old iPad (for awhile is was more often not than could, but now the reverse), but generally can do so on the laptop.  On my new iPad, it is halfway between them.  OTOH, the new iPad seems to lose more posts.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

In order to believe what you have written, one would have to trust that what the church teaches  is true. 

While Christ called men to spread His message, there is no record of Him attending regular organized religious services.  He rarely even went into a synagogue.  And this was after he called his apostles.  Why was he going to another church whose leaders he despised if they were the path to salvation.  What church was Christ baptized into?  Did Christ need a church to gather his followers?  How many times in Christ's lifetime did he take the sacrament?  Did he do it weekly?  Did he go to an organized religion to partake of the sacrament?  Did Christ attend the temple?  Were they doing endowments? I thought when Christ told peter that upon this rock I will build my church he was referring to the rock of revelation .  Isn't that what Mormons believe?  Did Christ teach that you have to be a member of organized religion in order to receive revelation?  Do you think those outside of organized religion can receive revelation?  Did Joseph Smith receive revelation outside of organized religion?  Did Christ teach a new commandment?

Why was he going to another church whose leaders he despised if they were the path to salvation? Missionary work to the House of Israel
What church was Christ baptized into?  People aren't baptized into the Church.  They are confirmed members of the Church.  Baptism is entering a covenant.
How many times in Christ's lifetime did he take the sacrament? Did he do it weekly?  Once.  The week before he died.
Did he go to an organized religion to partake of the sacrament?  Yes. The Church he started, with the leaders he appointed, with a commandment to continue.
Did Christ attend the temple?  All the time.
Were they doing endowments? They had no authority, why would we expect them to?  Christ however is recorded as participating in several temple related ceremonies.
I thought when Christ told peter that upon this rock I will build my church he was referring to the rock of revelation .  Isn't that what Mormons believe? Yes.  And irrelevant to the point.  The point is he is building a Church.

The flaw in your logic is that the things I put are NOT what the Church teaches.  They are examples of what Christ taught and did in the only available record of his mortal life and ministry.  I intentionally left off anything that has source in Mormonism.  My entire list is straight out of the NT, and straight out of the life of Christ.

You can explain things away all you want, but don't pretend it's more Christlike to NOT do the things Christ did or the things Christ commanded.
Leave out those things and there is nothing of Christ in our actions.  Just some imaginary Disneyfied version of his character traits that don't fit with the Christ of scripture.

 

[Johnnie Cake]

I wish you all well...but I'm gonna take a break from MD&D...be good while I'm away

cheers

Johnnie Cake

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

 

 

I don't think that the only people that Christ will welcome into his kingdom are people that have followed your outline. I think Christ is going to be much more interested in who we are as a person rather than how many sacrament meetings we have attended.  

That's nice.  Me too.

How you doing on the joy quotient?  Are you learning anything?

[california boy]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Why was he going to another church whose leaders he despised if they were the path to salvation? Missionary work to the House of Israel
What church was Christ baptized into?  People aren't baptized into the Church.  They are confirmed members of the Church.  Baptism is entering a covenant.
How many times in Christ's lifetime did he take the sacrament? Did he do it weekly?  Once.  The week before he died.
Did he go to an organized religion to partake of the sacrament?  Yes. The Church he started, with the leaders he appointed, with a commandment to continue.
Did Christ attend the temple?  All the time.
Were they doing endowments? They had no authority, why would we expect them to?  Christ however is recorded as participating in several temple related ceremonies.
I thought when Christ told peter that upon this rock I will build my church he was referring to the rock of revelation .  Isn't that what Mormons believe? Yes.  And irrelevant to the point.  The point is he is building a Church.

The flaw in your logic is that the things I put are NOT what the Church teaches.  They are examples of what Christ taught and did in the only available record of his mortal life and ministry.  I intentionally left off anything that has source in Mormonism.  My entire list is straight out of the NT, and straight out of the life of Christ.

You can explain things away all you want, but don't pretend it's more Christlike to NOT do the things Christ did or the things Christ commanded.
Leave out those things and there is nothing of Christ in our actions.  Just some imaginary Disneyfied version of his character traits that don't fit with the Christ of scripture.

 

Ok I will buy into your argument that organized religion is important to the salvation of the children of God and not bother pointing  out the flaws of your answer iif you can answer me this one question.  If organized religion is so important to mankind, then why did Christ not bother to have his church  on the earth for 1800 years?  Or is your argument that any organized religion works?  Were all those billions of people born during that time just not worth bothering to having a church for them to attend?  Did it really take 1800 years to find that one person capable of restarting the church that Christ started?  

Now tell me again how no one can be saved if they don't buy into the Mormon brand of organized religion.  If having a church on earth is of so little importance to God, then why not just let the rest of mankind be baptized after they are dead.  Because it seems to me that for 1800 years, Christ could care less about having any church on the earth.  This tiny tiny .00001% of all of mankind are the only ones that organized religion is important to?  Really?  No one wanted to be a part of Christ's church until 1830?  No one was worthy of Christ's church until 1830? No one would have listened to someone who speaks for God and is guided by him until 1830?  The Holy Spirit could not guide people to the church of Christ until 1830?  

 

When you place the number of people who have EVER been members of the church compared to the billions that have not been a part of "the church of Christ"  then it really points out how completely unimportant being a part of organized religion is.  

Edited October 5, 2016 by california boy

[california boy]

43 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That's nice.  Me too.

How you doing on the joy quotient?  Are you learning anything?

Yeah I should probably just shut up and let Jlhprof believe that organized religion was important to Christ and to think otherwise requires one to not follow Christ.  But I have to say, I am fascinated by what he will say about just how important God feels organized religion is when Christ didn't bother having His church on the earth for 1800 years.  While I didn't start this discussion, I should still probably walk away from it.   I am curious if JLJPROF can explain all of this to me.  If he can, then yeah I will just quit asking these tough questions.

[canard78]

On 03/10/2016 at 10:42 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

Sorry Scott but the entire talk is off putting and offensive

It completely misses the mark as to why many leave the church...and it reinforces in members mind the stereotypes promoted by the church as to why people leave...few if any that are representative of reality...most leave because they've concluded that the church simply isn't what it claims to be and until Ballard understand s this...he will never fully understands why people leave his good ship Zion

"Most..." do you have a source for that?

The other boards where you and I often hang on with the post-Mormon crowd is not necessarily representative of 65-70% of Mormons/ex-Mormons who no longer attend. 

If you think about the vast majority of semi actives/inactives/ex-Mormons, lots of them are converts who stopped attending within a few months. I don't think many of them stopped because of anything much more than "that was interesting for a few months... that Elder was friendly... oh look, Sunday morning golf has started again..." 

I agree with you though that some of his characterisations were unfair, particularly the last two about demands being to high or growing "weary in well-doing."

Suggesting laziness or selfishness as one of the headline 4-5 reasons isn't very conducive to approaching non-attendees. 

Personally, I don't think his talk really seemed aimed at getting people like you or I back. I think he was trying to stop our numbers being further swelled with new departures. 

If his words, intentionally or unintentionally, leads to further stigma of leavers being slothful, lazy or selfish, then it's a shame. 

I agree that he could have shown the leavers a little more respect, in the way Dieter Uchtdorf did in October 2013. 

[sjdawg]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Yeah I should probably just shut up and let Jlhprof believe that organized religion was important to Christ and to think otherwise requires one to not follow Christ.  But I have to say, I am fascinated by what he will say about just how important God feels organized religion is when Christ didn't bother having His church on the earth for 1800 years.  While I didn't start this discussion, I should still probably walk away from it.   I am curious if JLJPROF can explain all of this to me.  If he can, then yeah I will just quit asking these tough questions.

I'm curious why Christ didn't create a corporation sole to better manage his kingdom on earth.

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, california boy said:

When you place the number of people who have EVER been members of the church compared to the billions that have not been a part of "the church of Christ"  then it really points out how completely unimportant being a part of organized religion is. 

Hence the 1000 year millennial work.

But leaving aside this tangent you are taking for one moment, let's return to "Christlike".  I have no interest in getting bogged down in the weeds concerning organized religion.  I am more interested in our original topic of being "Christlike".

Your claim seemingly is that it is possible to be Christlike without doing any of the things he did or any of the things he commanded (other than "love" - a vague term).
I'd very much like to know how someone who doesn't obey or emulate Christ can consider themselves Christlike?

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, canard78 said:

"Most..." do you have a source for that?

The other boards where you and I often hang on with the post-Mormon crowd is not necessarily representative of 65-70% of Mormons/ex-Mormons who no longer attend. 

If you think about the vast majority of semi actives/inactives/ex-Mormons, lots of them are converts who stopped attending within a few months. I don't think many of them stopped because of anything much more than "that was interesting for a few months... that Elder was friendly... oh look, Sunday morning golf has started again..." 

I agree with you though that some of his characterisations were unfair, particularly the last two about demands being to high or growing "weary in well-doing."

Suggesting laziness or selfishness as one of the headline 4-5 reasons isn't very conducive to approaching non-attendees. 

Personally, I don't think his talk really seemed aimed at getting people like you or I back. I think he was trying to stop our numbers being further swelled with new departures. 

If his words, intentionally or unintentionally, leads to further stigma of leavers being slothful, lazy or selfish, then it's a shame. 

I agree that he could have shown the leavers a little more respect, in the way Dieter Uchtdorf did in October 2013. 

I think it important to recognize that Elder Ballard did not assign rankings to the array of reasons he listed that people might have for leaving the Church. He's not saying that one reason is necessarily more common than another. Your golf season example could be regarded as symptomatic of one of his possibilities: "difficulty living a religion that requires so much." The expectation of regular weekly attendance at a three-hour block of worship services is understandably daunting and burdensome to some who are not used to it. As Elder Hallstrom said a few weeks ago in a multi-stake conference here in the Salt Lake Valley, "When you consider what it actually takes to join the Church, it's a miracle anyone does."

Nor did Elder Ballard say his list was exhaustive. He indicated just the opposite when he said. "For these and other reasons, some Church members" fall away (emphasis mine).

True, he did give "weariness in well-doing" as one possible reason. I don't see this as particularly insulting, as I believe it to be a condition that afflicts us all to one degree or another, including those who are regarded as generally faithful. That's the reason the Lord admonished us not to be weary in well doing.

Be that as it may, if some of Elder Ballard's listed reasons rankle some of his hearers, consider that it is just as fallacious to assume that these are never the cause as it is to assume they are always the cause.

I like what you said about the likelihood of the assertion that "most" leave after concluding "the Church isn't what it claims to be." Your point is the same as that I was endeavoring to make.

Also, I think your analysis is correct that Elder Ballard was directing his remarks primarily to those Church members who "vacillate in their faith, wondering if perhaps they should follow those who 'went back and walked no more' with Jesus,'" not particularly to those who have already left and are hardened in their resolve.

Also, it is good to keep in mind that he said this in his talk:

Quote

My heartfelt plea is that we will encourage, accept, understand and love those who are struggling with their faith. Just as we should open our arms in a spirit of welcoming new converts, so too should we embrace and support thsose who have questions and are faltering in their faith.

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

Yeah I should probably just shut up and let Jlhprof believe that organized religion was important to Christ and to think otherwise requires one to not follow Christ.  But I have to say, I am fascinated by what he will say about just how important God feels organized religion is when Christ didn't bother having His church on the earth for 1800 years.  While I didn't start this discussion, I should still probably walk away from it.   I am curious if JLJPROF can explain all of this to me.  If he can, then yeah I will just quit asking these tough questions.

The most important part is that I am sure that you will be able to convert him to your view!  He may even leave the church because of this very discussion!  And after this, after all, there will be NO MORE questions as important as this one to worry about!!

Yah, dude, go for it!!   It will be easy to get more joy in your life once this stupid error is corrected!

[california boy]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

The most important part is that I am sure that you will be able to convert him to your view!  He may even leave the church because of this very discussion!  And after this, after all, there will be NO MORE questions as important as this one to worry about!!

Yah, dude, go for it!!   It will be easy to get more joy in your life once this stupid error is corrected!

yeah well that was not my intent.  He seems to be unwilling to answer my one question, so I will leave it at that.  The last thing I want to do is get in to an argument about how many sacrament meetings one has to attend in order to be saved.

[california boy]

On 10/4/2016 at 11:38 AM, JLHPROF said:

Being "Christlike" has everything to do with organized religion.  Anyone who thinks they can become like Christ any other way hasn't studied Christ.

Was Christ baptized?  Did he command us to be baptized?
Did Christ receive the Holy Ghost?  Did he promise that we should receive the Holy Ghost?
Did Christ serve a mission?  Did he command missionary work?
Did Christ gather with his followers?  Did he command his followers to gather together?
Did Christ call Apostles as leaders?
Did Christ build a Church (organized religion)?  Matt 16:18/Matt 18:17
Did Christ follow his own ideas on religion or did he do only as he was commanded and emulated what he had seen his Father do?
Did Christ partake of and command the taking of sacrament?
Did Christ honor an earthly building (temple) as God's house?
Did Christ study the scriptures (as they existed in his day)?

Christ both practiced and commanded organized religion.  Pretending you can be "Christlike" without this shows a lack of understanding of Christ.
If people truly wanted to be Christlike, running away from organized religion is the last thing they would be doing.

You want to be Christlike?  Be baptized like Christ was.  Attend meetings like Christ did.  Follow your head like Christ did.  Pray and fast like Christ did.  Partake of the Sacrament like Christ did.  Honor the temple like Christ did.  Serve proselyting missions like Christ did.  Give everything you have to the building up of God's kingdom on the earth like Christ did.  Reject and cast out all sin, devils, illness and corruption like Christ did.
THAT is how you are Christlike.

I assume you are interested in how I view the issues you bring up.  So I will be glad to respond to your statements. I think the value of this discussion board is understanding different perspectives.  I sometimes forget that is the goal here, at least for me.  So here are m y thoughts.

 

Was Christ baptized?  Did he command us to be baptized?

Baptism in this life?  Unnecessary in this life.  Just ask the billions who have lived on the earth when the church was not even here.  Are they all damned forever simply because Christ did not have his church here? The percentage of people who actually get baptized while on the earth is such a small fraction of far less than one percent of God's children, I don't really think that is necessary.  If it was, Christ would have figured out a way for more of God's children to receive that baptism in this life.

Did Christ receive the Holy Ghost?  Did he promise that we should receive the Holy Ghost?

You don't have to belong to a church to receive the Holy Ghost.  

Did Christ serve a mission?  Did he command missionary work?

Christ never served a mission for any organized religion.  No Jewish leader told him he had to serve 2 years

Did Christ gather with his followers?  Did he command his followers to gather together?

You can gather together without joining an organized religion.  I often gather with friends and we discuss religious issues.

Did Christ call Apostles as leaders?

Not for 1800 years. Obviously they are not that important.  And neither is an organized church.  If it was, Christ would have done something about it.  

Did Christ build a Church (organized religion)?  Matt 16:18/Matt 18:17

The rock is the rock of revelation.  It is not a building or a church.  You don't have to be in an organized religion to receive revelation from God.  

Dd Christ follow his own ideas on religion or did he do only as he was commanded and emulated what he had seen his Father do?

Christ taught a new gospel.  He introduced many new concepts on how we should treat each other.  It is our job to actually implement those teachings.  The world has never been the same since.  

Did Christ partake of and command the taking of sacrament?

Obviously taking the sacrament is not important to being saved.   Just ask the billions who have lived on the earth when the church was not even here.  Are they all damned forever simply because Christ did not have his church here?

Did Christ honor an earthly building (temple) as God's house?

Nope.  He never spent much time in the temple except to kick merchants out.  No record or weekly attendance.  No record of being obligated to listen to the Jewish leaders of his time tell Him what he should believe.  He mostly had contempt for those who were running the organized religion of his day and never encouraged anyone to follow the church leaders.

Did Christ study the scriptures (as they existed in his day)?

You don't have to belong to an organized religion to study scriptures.

 

So as you can easily see, there are many things that you feel are important to do in order to claim to follow Christ.  I find little support for that idea.  What I do find support for is this idea, preached by Paul in Corrinthians
 

Quote

 

1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And though I have the gift ofprophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

 

 

Being in organized religion is not what saves you.  Christ saves you as you follow His teachings and have a change of heart.  Where charity is paramount.  Love one another as I have loved you.  Belonging to organized religion these days actually puts up road blocks in my opinion to following the very core gospel that Christ taught.

I realize that you will disagree with much of what I have wrote.  I expect that.  I know organized religion is important to you in your life.  But for me, I have found a much stronger connection to spiritual things outside of the church.  I have no  intention of convincing you to leave the Mormon faith.  It obviously serves you well.  If you feel the need to condemn me for doing so, well so be it.  Where you found joy and happiness in being involved in a religion, I found deception and untruths told to me in the name of God that just weren't true and were later acknowledged as such.  By then, however the damage to my life had been done.  So I have moved on and found a more healthy place for me to worship God.

 

I would love to hear an answer to the question I asked about the church of Christ not being here for 1800 years because I am interested in your opinion.  If you feel like that is some kind of trick question, then please don't feel obligated to answer it.  I totally understand.  I am just curious is all.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, california boy said:

Being in organized religion is not what saves you.  Christ saves you as you follow His teachings and have a change of heart.  Where charity is paramount.  Love one another as I have loved you.  Belonging to organized religion these days actually puts up road blocks in my opinion to following the very core gospel that Christ taught.

You apparently missed or ignored my other post.
I am not going to debate organized religion with you.

The issue here is how to become Christlike.
I think your understanding of what Christ taught and what characteristics are to be emulated are where the issue lies, not in whether or not anyone belongs to an organization.
 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, california boy said:

I assume you are interested in how I view the issues you bring up.  So I will be glad to respond to your statements. I think the value of this discussion board is understanding different perspectives.  I sometimes forget that is the goal here, at least for me.  So here are m y thoughts.

 

Was Christ baptized?  Did he command us to be baptized?

Baptism in this life?  Unnecessary in this life.  Just ask the billions who have lived on the earth when the church was not even here.  Are they all damned forever simply because Christ did not have his church here? The percentage of people who actually get baptized while on the earth is such a small fraction of far less than one percent of God's children, I don't really think that is necessary.  If it was, Christ would have figured out a way for more of God's children to receive that baptism in this life.

Did Christ receive the Holy Ghost?  Did he promise that we should receive the Holy Ghost?

You don't have to belong to a church to receive the Holy Ghost.  

Did Christ serve a mission?  Did he command missionary work?

Christ never served a mission for any organized religion.  No Jewish leader told him he had to serve 2 years

Did Christ gather with his followers?  Did he command his followers to gather together?

You can gather together without joining an organized religion.  I often gather with friends and we discuss religious issues.

Did Christ call Apostles as leaders?

Not for 1800 years. Obviously they are not that important.  And neither is an organized church.  If it was, Christ would have done something about it.  

Did Christ build a Church (organized religion)?  Matt 16:18/Matt 18:17

The rock is the rock of revelation.  It is not a building or a church.  You don't have to be in an organized religion to receive revelation from God.  

Dd Christ follow his own ideas on religion or did he do only as he was commanded and emulated what he had seen his Father do?

Christ taught a new gospel.  He introduced many new concepts on how we should treat each other.  It is our job to actually implement those teachings.  The world has never been the same since.  

Did Christ partake of and command the taking of sacrament?

Obviously taking the sacrament is not important to being saved.   Just ask the billions who have lived on the earth when the church was not even here.  Are they all damned forever simply because Christ did not have his church here?

Did Christ honor an earthly building (temple) as God's house?

Nope.  He never spent much time in the temple except to kick merchants out.  No record or weekly attendance.  No record of being obligated to listen to the Jewish leaders of his time tell Him what he should believe.  He mostly had contempt for those who were running the organized religion of his day and never encouraged anyone to follow the church leaders.

Did Christ study the scriptures (as they existed in his day)?

You don't have to belong to an organized religion to study scriptures.

 

So as you can easily see, there are many things that you feel are important to do in order to claim to follow Christ.  I find little support for that idea.  What I do find support for is this idea, preached by Paul in Corrinthians
 

 

Being in organized religion is not what saves you.  Christ saves you as you follow His teachings and have a change of heart.  Where charity is paramount.  Love one another as I have loved you.  Belonging to organized religion these days actually puts up road blocks in my opinion to following the very core gospel that Christ taught.

I realize that you will disagree with much of what I have wrote.  I expect that.  I know organized religion is important to you in your life.  But for me, I have found a much stronger connection to spiritual things outside of the church.  I have no  intention of convincing you to leave the Mormon faith.  It obviously serves you well.  If you feel the need to condemn me for doing so, well so be it.  Where you found joy and happiness in being involved in a religion, I found deception and untruths told to me in the name of God that just weren't true and were later acknowledged as such.  By then, however the damage to my life had been done.  So I have moved on and found a more healthy place for me to worship God.

 

I would love to hear an answer to the question I asked about the church of Christ not being here for 1800 years because I am interested in your opinion.  If you feel like that is some kind of trick question, then please don't feel obligated to answer it.  I totally understand.  I am just curious is all.

 

 

Your responses to JLHPROF's questions are uniformly evasive, except for one or two instances where they are flatly, demonstrably wrong.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Your responses to JLHPROF's questions are uniformly evasive, except for one or two instances where they are flatly, demonstrably wrong.

Seriously Scott, I didn't expect you to agree with me.  I am just giving you my opinion.  I get that the Mormon religion works well for you.  I would never expect you to have a different opinion.  And I can understand why you don't agree with my belief.  It doesn't mean that I am wrong.  It only means that you consider it wrong.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

You apparently missed or ignored my other post.
I am not going to debate organized religion with you.

The issue here is how to become Christlike.
I think your understanding of what Christ taught and what characteristics are to be emulated are where the issue lies, not in whether or not anyone belongs to an organization.
 

Well I have stated my views on the issues you brought up.  That is my only intent.  I get that you have a different understanding of what Christ taught.  I also expressed what I view as the core message of Christ.  I don't need you to accept that message if you see something else that is more important to you in his teachings.  Heck, most of the world has a different view of what Christ taught.  So not a big surprise is it?

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well I have stated my views on the issues you brought up.  That is my only intent.  I get that you have a different understanding of what Christ taught.  I also expressed what I view as the core message of Christ.  I don't need you to accept that message if you see something else that is more important to you in his teachings.  Heck, most of the world has a different view of what Christ taught.  So not a big surprise is it?

I just don't see how you can claim to work on becoming Christlike without both doing the things he did and obeying the commands he gave.  By definition that would make you different from Christ, not like Christ.  But let's just agree to disagree.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I just don't see how you can claim to work on becoming Christlike without both doing the things he did and obeying the commands he gave.  By definition that would make you different from Christ, not like Christ.  But let's just agree to disagree.

There is a great possiblity that someone who doesn't know, spoke for Christ.

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

There is a great possiblity that someone who doesn't know, spoke for Christ.

Huh? Please clarify.  The word "ventriloquist" keeps running uncontrollably through my mind.  Sorry but that is the truth.