The Nehor Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 18 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Sorry Scott but the entire talk is off putting and offensive It completely misses the mark as to why many leave the church...and it reinforces in members mind the stereotypes promoted by the church as to why people leave...few if any that are representative of reality...most leave because they've concluded that the church simply isn't what it claims to be and until Ballard understand s this...he will never fully understands why people leave his good ship Zion I agree. It is because they are just terrible people. No further explanation needed.
Johnnie Cake Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I agree. It is because they are just terrible people. No further explanation needed. You nailed it The Nehor...we are just terrible, miserable people...please stay where you are...we don't want any more members to leave...there isn't enough happiness outside the church to share with any more who desire to leave...we want it all for ourselves...in keeping with our selfish nature Edited October 4, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Johnnie Cake Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 44 minutes ago, california boy said: Canard, I think your comments are dead on. This is exactly how many who have left the church feel. And Scott, I think your comments are dead on. This is exactly how many who have found the church to be their life path feel. If one looks at who posts on this board, it is clear that about half are very content with the church. They find peace and happiness and joy in the gospel. They find a spiritual connection with God that they wouldn't give up for anything. They find joy and happiness in their family and friends that share this common belief. And they defend that institution against any who threatens it. And then there is the other half that post here. Some struggle daily with their involvement in the church. They love it, and they hate it. They don't find the same joy and peace that Scott speaks of They are trying to get the Mormon paradigm to fit into their lives, but it just won't work no matter how much they try to pry and force the pieces to fit. For some, they break out of this conflict and find a life where things do come together for them and it brings with it a peace and joy and spirituality that they could never enjoy within the construct of Mormonism. Is it possible for those within the church to acknowledge that while the church completes their lives, perhaps others find no such happiness and joy within the church? Their path back to God lies outside the walls of Mormonism. They probably will never return to Mormonism. Very Well Put...
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 17 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Sorry to offend you...and yes I agree that the reasons members leave is manifold and varied...but to ignore the reason most members leave is just living in denial It's not self-evident that the reason most people leave is what you think it to be.
JLHPROF Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: It's not self-evident that the reason most people leave is what you think it to be. I think you're both right. JC is right that people think they are leaving "because the Church isn't what they claim". You are right that the cause of that thinking doesn't always come from anything the Church did/didn't do. 1
Jeanne Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 46 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I agree. It is because they are just terrible people. No further explanation needed. Bite me Nehor.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: No we leave because we believe the church is everything it claims to be...holds all the keys to eternal life, is the vehicle through which we hold on to our families throughout eternity, the means to godhood, eternal procreation and worlds without end...and none of us who leave really want any of that...so my mistake Scott, you saw through my thinly vailed excuses...you are right...we leave because we actually believe the church is what it claims to be...oh and because we want to sin and have an excuse to get rid of those home teachers...yes we are that shallow. Thanks for exposing me and my ilk Scott. Oh and I forgot to mention that other stereo typed reason we leave... We're lazy and Being a member is just too hard...Thanks for exposing our lies Scott and our misconceived notions that we leave due to unbelief...how silly of us to think we actually know why we leave...thank you for exposing our lies and sharing the real reasons...for surely we wouldn't know our own reasons for leaving would we Scott...but thanks for informing us of our own misunderstandings. Your a good man Scott Your response here is to a response of mine that somehow got misplaced, apparently in response to a post different from the one I had intended to respond to. I had intended it to respond to your assertion about the reason most people leave. I don't know how the glitch happened. I'm tempted to blame it on the board software, since so many other odd things have been happening with it over the past months. But it could have been my error. In any case my point was that Elder Ballard listed an array of reasons people have for departing from the Church, and I'm expressing doubt that you can know definitively which of those reasons is the one that "most people" have for leaving. Edited October 4, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: It might be a little bit better IF you were correct. But unfortunately Elder Ballard's words were much more accusatory. "Where will you go?" His talk is not accusatory in the least. And for you to compare him or his intent to an abusive husband is fundamentally unfair and borders on being uncivil. Quote You may want to reread it. His talk was an admission that he fundamentally does not understand the problem. I deny that anywhere in his talk he stated or implied or conceded or acknowledged that "he fundamentally does not understand the problem." But go ahead and post a quote from it to that effect, if you can. Quote He can't conceive of why anyone would leave or what they would do if they did leave. He has great resources available to him so I have to imagine he has the opportunity to understand. I hope some day he will accept the opportunity to understand. I hope he will not be dismissive of other people's journeys and be able to put off his narrow world view reflected in his lack of understanding. His experience is not every other person's experience. Hopefully through understanding he will someday develop the empathy he seems to be lacking on this issue. Again, I have to think his experience,knowledge and understanding are even greater than you give him credit for. His empathy is much greater than you give him credit for. Edited October 4, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: Is it possible for those within the church to acknowledge that while the church completes their lives, perhaps others find no such happiness and joy within the church? Their path back to God lies outside the walls of Mormonism. They probably will never return to Mormonism. If and when they find their way back to God, sooner or later they will be obliged to acknowledge -- maybe not until the next life -- that the teachings, commandments, keys, authority and ordinances to bring salvation to Heavenly Father's children are administered by and within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 In reviewing Elder Ballard's talk just now, I was reminded of this passage: Quote The decision to “walk no more” with Church members and the Lord’s chosen leaders will have a long-term impact that cannot always be seen right now. There may be some doctrine, some policy, some bit of history that puts you at odds with your faith, and you may feel that the only way to resolve that inner turmoil right now is to “walk no more” with the Saints. If you live as long as I have, you will come to know that things have a way of resolving themselves. An inspired insight or revelation may shed new light on an issue. Remember, the Restoration is not an event, but it continues to unfold. Never abandon the great truths revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Never stop reading, pondering, and applying the doctrine of Christ contained in the Book of Mormon. Never fail to give equal time to the Lord through honest attempts to understand what the Lord has revealed. As my dear friend and former colleague, Neal A. Maxwell, once said, "We must not assume ... that just because something is unexplainable by us, it is unexplainable." This is consistent with what I said yesterday in a post to canard78 about holding out the possibility that added insight (or information or revelation) may at some point in the future be a catalyst for one to return home. As I recall, I mentioned Don Bradley and Country Boy/Utah Texan as examples. And I gave myself as an example of one who is less troubled with the issue of plural marriage today than I was in the past, this because of added insight I have gained over the years.
Tacenda Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Not at all. The Savior is not independent of the principles contained in Mormonism, and Mormonism requires the Savior. If Mormonism's teachings on the Savior could ever be proved false (something I can't imagine) then no other teaching on the Savior would have any purpose. The Savior I follow was a spirit child of God like me and was chosen in the pre-mortal council to pay for my sins. If I cease to believe that I am not going to start believing in some Trinitarian or Evangelical concept of a Savior which beggars logic and reason. Knowledge of Christ saves us. We cannot accept what we do not know. The knowledge of Christ in other sects and religions makes little sense to me. The knowledge of Christ contained in Mormonism makes perfect sense to me. If it were proven false I would not know Christ in whom to have faith. I cannot have faith in a concept of Christ that makes no sense to me. (There is a prophetic quote or scripture to this effect, referencing not being able to have faith in something you cannot know, but it escapes me). Oh, and Christ said all will be saved except the sons of perdition. So being saved is not something I worry about. I am more concerned with what my saved situation will be than getting saved. What if the Holy Ghost tells you that Mormonism is false?
The Nehor Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: Bite me Nehor. Sorry, I only playfully nip. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 11 minutes ago, Tacenda said: What if the Holy Ghost tells you that Mormonism is false? If someone or something tells you that, it won't be the Holy Ghost. But recognizing that it is possible that even the very elect will be deceived we try to counteract that by continually teaching truth. 2
JLHPROF Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 13 minutes ago, Tacenda said: What if the Holy Ghost tells you that Mormonism is false? I would reject it as a false spirit, because it would contradict what the spirit had previously revealed to me. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: In reviewing Elder Ballard's talk just now, I was reminded of this passage: This is consistent with what I said yesterday in a post to canard78 about holding out the possibility that added insight (or information or revelation) may at some point in the future be a catalyst for one to return home. As I recall, I mentioned Don Bradley and Country Boy/Utah Texan as examples. And I gave myself as an example of one who is less troubled with the issue of plural marriage today than I was in the past, this because of added insight I have gained over the years. Quote The decision to “walk no more” with Church members and the Lord’s chosen leaders will have a long-term impact that cannot always be seen right now. There may be some doctrine, some policy, some bit of history that puts you at odds with your faith, and you may feel that the only way to resolve that inner turmoil right now is to “walk no more” with the Saints. If you live as long as I have, you will come to know that things have a way of resolving themselves. An inspired insight or revelation may shed new light on an issue. Remember, the Restoration is not an event, but it continues to unfold. Never abandon the great truths revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Never stop reading, pondering, and applying the doctrine of Christ contained in the Book of Mormon. Never fail to give equal time to the Lord through honest attempts to understand what the Lord has revealed. As my dear friend and former colleague, Neal A. Maxwell, once said, "We must not assume ... that just because something is unexplainable by us, it is unexplainable." This is exactly what I would say also were I in his position and had knowledge that 10's of thousands of formerly active believing, tithe paying members were leaving the church...but his statement assumes that the church is what it claims to be...I still assert that people leave because they no longer believe the church is what it claims to be...and so his message falls on people who don't give a **** what he says...we don't buy the stuff he's selling
california boy Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Two very separate issues. Personal happiness and comfort have no direct correlation with the way back to God. You can be happy on the right road or the wrong road. You can be miserable on the right road or the wrong road. In the end the straight and narrow way is the one and only way back to God. Actually they are VERY connected, for me at least. The closer towards being more Christ like, the happier we are. Becoming more Christlike has nothing to do with organized religion IMO
JLHPROF Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, california boy said: Actually they are VERY connected, for me at least. The closer towards being more Christ like, the happier we are. Becoming more Christlike has nothing to do with organized religion IMO Being "Christlike" has everything to do with organized religion. Anyone who thinks they can become like Christ any other way hasn't studied Christ. Was Christ baptized? Did he command us to be baptized? Did Christ receive the Holy Ghost? Did he promise that we should receive the Holy Ghost? Did Christ serve a mission? Did he command missionary work? Did Christ gather with his followers? Did he command his followers to gather together? Did Christ call Apostles as leaders? Did Christ build a Church (organized religion)? Matt 16:18/Matt 18:17 Did Christ follow his own ideas on religion or did he do only as he was commanded and emulated what he had seen his Father do? Did Christ partake of and command the taking of sacrament? Did Christ honor an earthly building (temple) as God's house? Did Christ study the scriptures (as they existed in his day)? Christ both practiced and commanded organized religion. Pretending you can be "Christlike" without this shows a lack of understanding of Christ. If people truly wanted to be Christlike, running away from organized religion is the last thing they would be doing. You want to be Christlike? Be baptized like Christ was. Attend meetings like Christ did. Follow your head like Christ did. Pray and fast like Christ did. Partake of the Sacrament like Christ did. Honor the temple like Christ did. Serve proselyting missions like Christ did. Give everything you have to the building up of God's kingdom on the earth like Christ did. Reject and cast out all sin, devils, illness and corruption like Christ did. THAT is how you are Christlike. Edited October 4, 2016 by JLHPROF 3
churchistrue Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 I wrote on this talk. http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/m-russell-ballard-to-whom-shall-wo-go/ My summary is that I think he meant this a little softer than some people (ie the Exmo memes going around) are taking it.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 36 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: This is exactly what I would say also were I in his position and had knowledge that 10's of thousands of formerly active believing, tithe paying members were leaving the church...but his statement assumes that the church is what it claims to be...I still assert that people leave because they no longer believe the church is what it claims to be...and so his message falls on people who don't give a **** what he says...we don't buy the stuff he's selling Whether or not you give a (whatever the off-color word was you used that the system automatically replaced with four asterisks) what he says, he has a duty as a watchman on the tower to raise a warning voice. And that is true whether or not you "buy the stuff he's selling," particularly when those who are angered by his words, however kindly and sympathetically they are expressed, try to poison the minds of others against receiving them. And some who hear them will be influenced by his words and will profit thereby.
The Nehor Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 45 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: This is exactly what I would say also were I in his position and had knowledge that 10's of thousands of formerly active believing, tithe paying members were leaving the church...but his statement assumes that the church is what it claims to be...I still assert that people leave because they no longer believe the church is what it claims to be...and so his message falls on people who don't give a **** what he says...we don't buy the stuff he's selling Those people are probably not watching so why try to reach out to them in that venue? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Being "Christlike" has everything to do with organized religion. Anyone who thinks they can become like Christ any other way hasn't studied Christ. Was Christ baptized? Did he command us to be baptized? Did Christ receive the Holy Ghost? Did he promise that we should receive the Holy Ghost? Did Christ serve a mission? Did he command missionary work? Did Christ gather with his followers? Did he command his followers to gather together? Did Christ call Apostles as leaders? Did Christ build a Church (organized religion)? Matt 16:18/Matt 18:17 Did Christ follow his own ideas on religion or did he do only as he was commanded and emulated what he had seen his Father do? Did Christ partake of and command the taking of sacrament? Did Christ honor an earthly building (temple) as God's house? Did Christ study the scriptures (as they existed in his day)? Christ both practiced and commanded organized religion. Pretending you can be "Christlike" without this shows a lack of understanding of Christ. If people truly wanted to be Christlike, running away from organized religion is the last thing they would be doing. You want to be Christlike? Be baptized like Christ was. Attend meetings like Christ did. Follow your head like Christ did. Pray and fast like Christ did. Partake of the Sacrament like Christ did. Honor the temple like Christ did. Serve proselyting missions like Christ did. Give everything you have to the building up of God's kingdom on the earth like Christ did. Reject and cast out all sin, devils, illness and corruption like Christ did. THAT is how you are Christlike. This might be the most eloquent post you have ever written on this board. Bravo! 1
JLHPROF Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This might be the most eloquent post you have ever written on this board. Bravo! Scott, you and I may never see eye to eye doctrinally on all things but make no mistake. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ through his prophet Joseph Smith is the one and only path back to God's presence. The priesthood was restored to the earth for the last time and the Church was set up by Christ through revelation. Whatever personal disagreements I may have with the current Church over the modifications made to the ordinances and doctrines Joseph and Brigham etc established during the past 100 years, I know this is God's Church and he will lead it in his own way and he WILL correct the mistakes of men that have crept throughout in his own good time. Abandoning the Church in a foolhardy attempt to become more "Christlike" independently is not a path anyone should follow. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Scott, you and I may never see eye to eye doctrinally on all things but make no mistake. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ through his prophet Joseph Smith is the one and only path back to God's presence. The priesthood was restored to the earth for the last time and the Church was set up by Christ through revelation. Whatever personal disagreements I may have with the current Church over the modifications made to the ordinances and doctrines Joseph and Brigham etc established during the past 100 years, I know this is God's Church and he will lead it in his own way and he WILL correct the mistakes of men that have crept throughout in his own good time. Abandoning the Church in a foolhardy attempt to become more "Christlike" independently is not a path anyone should follow. I sometimes lose patience with those who prattle on about "being more Christlike" while almost in the same breath rejecting much of His teachings. Edited to add: Or even, in some instances, denying His divinity or, sometimes, His very existence. Edited October 4, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
Jeanne Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: This is exactly what I would say also were I in his position and had knowledge that 10's of thousands of formerly active believing, tithe paying members were leaving the church...but his statement assumes that the church is what it claims to be...I still assert that people leave because they no longer believe the church is what it claims to be...and so his message falls on people who don't give a **** what he says...we don't buy the stuff he's selling This is what I have tried to explain to close friends and some family members. Would they think that I would take it so lightly to leave a church that PROMISED me that i could be with my husband forever!? I had tried so hard..and the shelves kept falling and could no longer hold on to the testimony that asked my bishop...am I paying enough tithing?? To be told that I might not have prayed hard enough..studied hard enough ..or whatever else there was that I could lack..it was mind numbing. I put my heart and soul into the faith and when i studied..it fell apart. I didn't up and to leave..it took months and months and heartache and asking questions..and I held on as long as I could. The thing is, once trust is taken..it is so gone. The hurt had gotten to the point where I could not go there anymore. My belief and then disbelief in Joseph was not just a mere stumbling block; it was a foundation that swallowed me whole and left me empty. The church is not what it claims to be for me anyway. It died with Emma's ignorance of Joseph's marriages..it died with the treasures Joseph was seeking and a hat and rock that I didn't know about. When the essays came out I had already left the church..but as forthcoming as they tried to be, it contradicted everything that my parents and early childhood life in the church had ever taught me. It is not just some doctrine ...or some policy....or history..it is REAL and how I feel about it matters to me and what I do with those feelings ....belongs to me. I can take that..but not the blame and shame that others want me to walk around with all the days of my life. 1
california boy Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: If and when they find their way back to God, sooner or later they will be obliged to acknowledge -- maybe not until the next life -- that the teachings, commandments, keys, authority and ordinances to bring salvation to Heavenly Father's children are administered by and within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. No where in scripture that is not written by a Mormon does it say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints saves you. Temple ordinances is a Mormon construct. I get that you feel differently. Like I said, your path requires you to believe that. Mine requires me to believe only in Christ and strive to be more like Him. 1
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