universal ordinances?

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

Of course.  Why would you think different given what the Bible says and what the prophets have said. 

[notHagoth7]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

If I may, I'd like to riff on a few potentially-related things: 

1. Anciently, every faithful Israelite attended their temple regularly to provide offerings and sacrifices. Then, in the meridian of time, a one-time Offering made such recurring foreshadowing moot, offered redemption/cleansing to all who accept Jesus of Nazareth as Savior, a different kind of offering/sacrifice of each believer was then required, and the temple was subsequently removed. 
2. As another illustration, when an apostle bestows an apostolic blessing upon an audience, that one blessing applies instantly to everyone who faithfully receives it. (That blessing does *not* have to be individually pronounced upon every listener, one at a time.)
3. What do the sweeping efficacy of such umbrella dispensations of priesthood blessings at least offer?
4. Since the millennium (a thousand years) is but a day for God (2 Peter 3:8), what if he or his servants opted to complete a thousand years of sweeping work in a single day, as in the examples provided above, and leveraged the rest of that millennial peace towards greater things? 

Thoughts?

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Duncan]

39 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

No. I know of 2 people (both sons of friends) that were mentally handicapped (both were childlike even as adults) that did not need to be baptized.

we have a downs syndrome person in our ward who isn't accountable to be baptized here but he comes. I wonder though when he dies and goes to the next life he won't have that anymore so will he be baptized here by a family member because over there he can choose to accept or reject and will be tested(i'm assuming)

[Jeanne]

Just now, Duncan said:

we have a downs syndrome person in our ward who isn't accountable to be baptized here but he comes. I wonder though when he dies and goes to the next life he won't have that anymore so will he be baptized here by a family member because over there he can choose to accept or reject and will be tested(i'm assuming)

In my thinking..(I know a scary thought..) I believe is already baptized in his affliction and endurance of it.

[Garden Girl]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

My idea went to familysearch people and right out their earholes.  But I'll give it to them again.  I enjoy family history work but it's not getting us anywhere in terms of denting the 100 billion people who have lived.  I know during the millennium our temples will be open 24/7 and people will be going in and out constantly to capacity.  But that sounds boring.  I think we can do better. 

I believe this will be the great work of the millennium... all will have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, accept him as their Savior, and receive all the ordinances for them to receive their glory...

GG

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

we have a downs syndrome person in our ward who isn't accountable to be baptized here but he comes. I wonder though when he dies and goes to the next life he won't have that anymore so will he be baptized here by a family member because over there he can choose to accept or reject and will be tested(i'm assuming)

Or, more likely, he will be in the same situation as an infant that dies.
D&C 137:10 "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

I don't think age of accountability can be only an issue of numbers.  The accountability would be more important than the age.

[Duncan]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Or, more likely, he will be in the same situation as an infant that dies.
D&C 137:10 "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

I don't think age of accountability can be only an issue of numbers.  The accountability would be more important than the age.

but don't they get tested and grow up during the millenium or something like that? I can't see anyone going to the Celestial Kingdom without baptism or other ordinance work

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

even people with intellectual disabilities need baptism and everything else? 

According to Moroni 8, children and the unaccountable do not need baptism wherein “baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.” But where we are also “to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness,” there must be some opportunity for the dead to do this, as Christ did. This is why “the ordinance of baptizing for the dead …was instituted from before the foundation of the world,” in other words, because “little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world.”

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, Duncan said:

but don't they get tested and grow up during the millenium or something like that? I can't see anyone going to the Celestial Kingdom without baptism or other ordinance work

ALL that is required for entry to the CK is Baptism for those who are accountable in mortality.  Those who are not accountable in mortality (infants, those with mental disabilities) are not subject to sin so do not require baptism.

As for their exaltation, that would require the eventual receipt of other ordinance work.  And the Millennium would be the time for that.
As for testing?  It is a misconception that all must face the same tests.  Just looking at people's lives should tell us that.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

we have a downs syndrome person in our ward who isn't accountable to be baptized here but he comes. I wonder though when he dies and goes to the next life he won't have that anymore so will he be baptized here by a family member because over there he can choose to accept or reject and will be tested(i'm assuming)

I think it's often done out of kindness, so they will not feel excluded. There shouldn't be any doctrinal necessity for it, though. 

[Eek!]

If children who die before the age of accountability, and/or others who for whatever reason are not accountable, are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, while the rest of humanity is not automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, then those people would be getting an absolutely incredible "freebie".  

And that would not be fair to the rest of us.  So unless God is unfair, that paradigm is flawed.  

Is there another paradigm that is actually fair to everyone?  

Edited September 26, 2016 by Eek!

[rpn]

In heaven people are neither married or given in marriage.   Yes, baptism, endowment and sealing to parents is required on earth, as part of the fulfillment of all things (and will be completed during the millennium).   Marriage is optional.

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, rpn said:

In heaven people are neither married or given in marriage.   Yes, baptism, endowment and sealing to parents is required on earth, as part of the fulfillment of all things (and will be completed during the millennium).   Marriage is optional.

You need to check your scripture:
It is not "in heaven".
It is in the resurrection/when the dead rise.

All ordinances are optional.  But all are required for exaltation.  Marriage sealings must be performed on the earth prior to the resurrection/final judgment.  And they are required for any who want the highest degree.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Eek! said:

I think that a major reason for temple work is the "turning of the hearts of the children to the fathers".  

Jesus may have been baptized as an example rather than because He needed it.  However if He did indeed need the ordinance of baptism then obviously He needs the other ordinances as well, so have they been done for Him?  

Whether the ordinances are required or not for everyone I do not know, but if so, imo nobody will be cheated.  While it is easy for us to think up scenarios wherein someone gets cheated, God is much smarter than we are, and He can think up work-arounds that we cannot.  This is of course based on the assumption that God is good, God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons.

I happen to believe that multiple mortal probations ("reincarnation") is a possibility (based largely on an experience that was confirmed by someone old enough to remember events that I had no knowledge of), in which case we may not need to do temple work for everyone going back to Adam in order to effectively be all-inclusive.  

He was baptized to fulfill the commandments of the Father. Even though he was a perfect God, he still obeyed. He became an example of obedience to all. It wasn't just a nice thing to do. Nephi could not have been plainer.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

If children who die before the age of accountability, and/or others who for whatever reason are not accountable, are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, while the rest of humanity is not automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, then those people would be getting an absolutely incredible "freebie".  

And that would not be fair to the rest of us.  So unless God is unfair, that paradigm is flawed.  

Is there another paradigm that is actually fair to everyone?  

No, not unless it is revealed by God. There is no other way. Nephi made that plain.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

If children who die before the age of accountability, and/or others who for whatever reason are not accountable, are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, while the rest of humanity is not automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, then those people would be getting an absolutely incredible "freebie".  

And that would not be fair to the rest of us.  So unless God is unfair, that paradigm is flawed.  

Is there another paradigm that is actually fair to everyone?  

Have you considered that perhaps they somehow deserved that "freebie" while we did not?

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

ALL that is required for entry to the CK is Baptism for those who are accountable in mortality.  Those who are not accountable in mortality (infants, those with mental disabilities) are not subject to sin so do not require baptism.

As for their exaltation, that would require the eventual receipt of other ordinance work.  And the Millennium would be the time for that.
As for testing?  It is a misconception that all must face the same tests.  Just looking at people's lives should tell us that.

that what I think as well, it's needed but not now and will be done later or people submit names of a person with disabilities to the Temple and let God deal with it. 

[Sleeper Cell]

5 hours ago, cdowis said:

That was Satan's plan, and that did not work out,did it.

Satan probably didn’t have much of a sense of humor and tended to take himself and his plan far too seriously.  

I interpreted  Stem’s comments as an attempt to provoke thought, rather than as “beyond the pale” criticism of current policies or the teachings of our church leaders.  At the end of the day, he, like the rest of us, will probably continue to do family history and temple work in the way our church leaders tell us to do.  

However, I would love to be a fly on the wall when Stem makes his next suggestion to the family search people!
 

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

Of course they do -- except maybe for those in the City of Enoch.  On the other hand, recall Jesus insisting to John the Baptizer that he had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

It is church doctrine that they need these ordinances and that is why baptisms and other ordinances for the dead are done in temples

We know we will have spiritual help in doing so, as we are taught, during what is known as the Millennium 

IF one believes in spiritual solutions there are many possibilities.  I think it is ridiculous to try to fathom the mechanics of how this will be done based on worldly standards and using worldly mechanics

IF one believes in spiritual visitations, etc, one can easily imagine a spirit appearing to someone in the temple during the Millennium, and saying

"Hi! My name is Urg and I was born in what was known as Somalia in 3000 BC.  I have accepted the gospel in the spirit world and would please like to have my ordinances done"

The presumption that we will not get spiritual help for this spiritual project which we believe to be the will of God is.... hard to fathom.

Without spiritual help it is impossible and a ridiculous idea.  With spiritual help, anything can happen.

[Duncan]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

It is church doctrine that they need these ordinances and that is why baptisms and other ordinances for the dead are done in temples

We know we will have spiritual help in doing so, as we are taught, during what is known as the Millennium 

IF one believes in spiritual solutions there are many possibilities.  I think it is ridiculous to try to fathom the mechanics of how this will be done based on worldly standards and using worldly mechanics

IF one believes in spiritual visitations, etc, one can easily imagine a spirit appearing to someone in the temple during the Millennium, and saying

"Hi! My name is Urg and I was born in what was known as Somalia in 3000 BC.  I have accepted the gospel in the spirit world and would please like to have my ordinances done"

The presumption that we will not get spiritual help for this spiritual project which we believe to be the will of God is.... hard to fathom.

Without spiritual help it is impossible and a ridiculous idea.  With spiritual help, anything can happen.

We can't prove my Grandparents ever lived, beyond what my dad has said and a few photos he has of them but independantly verifying their birth dates,marriage and death dates we got el zippo!!! to say nothing about any other German relative of ours!!! why don't they appear to us?! I got time if they show up en mass!!!!!

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Better yet, why not simply perform one set of ordinances for the entire human race (deceased, still living, and yet to be born), and have done with it?  

Because you need individual commitments 

That is what the gospel is about.  It is not about humanity as a whole.  That misses the entire point.  The relationship is between the individual and God

That's like saying let's just snap our fingers and now everyone is married to everyone else.  

That obviously cancels the whole idea of marriage.  

Ordinances for all is ordinances for none.

[Eek!]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

He was baptized to fulfill the commandments of the Father. Even though he was a perfect God, he still obeyed. He became an example of obedience to all. It wasn't just a nice thing to do. Nephi could not have been plainer.

Does Jesus need any other earthly ordinances?  If so, has He received them?  

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Have you considered that perhaps they somehow deserved that "freebie" while we did not?

I think you're on the right track.  How do you think they came to deserve it?  

Hint:  King Follet discourse.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

One thing I wonder about too is marriage sealings. Obviously if you get married and sealed here then it's no problem and hopefully you both make it to the next life with sealing intact. But what if you are single and never get sealed here? In the next life you can be afforded that opportunity but who does your sealing work here though? Does God say to someone that Clarence and Hortense Luffafupple were sealed in heaven so we need two folks on earth to do their work or they want to be sealed so we need two people on earth to be proxy, how does that work? If they don't need proxies then why can't God seal people already married and we are just wasting time getting sealed in the Temple here.

You are looking at this objectively by worldly standards.

Ordinances need to be done here so we turn our hearts to our fathers.  And yes, I hate to say it, but God will work it all out.

But understand this pragmatically- ordinances are for US to serve others!!   Ordinances are to teach US, not only for the dead.  God could snap his fingers and do all this NOW if he wanted to do it that way, but this is FOR OUR BENEFIT as much as anything else.

Those who want their ordinances will have them done.  How it happens we don't know, but we have to trust God.  THAT is part of the whole plan- living by faith

Literalism is the enemy of faith