universal ordinances?

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

even people with intellectual disabilities need baptism and everything else? 

Oh my gosh

There are of course exceptions.  

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

How about we baptize and endow one person for and on behalf of [everyone who ever lived on earth]? Much more efficient!

 

ETA: Sleeper Cell beat me to it!

And I refuted it

[The Nehor]

Just now, Eek! said:

I think you're on the right track.  How do you think they came to deserve it?  

Hint:  King Follet discourse.

I don't think we know enough about premortality to have any idea what that might entail. It is an existence foreign to ours we have only a few scriptures about with very little discussion of the nature of that life. I expect we would barely understand or not understand at all the explanation even if it were given.

[mfbukowski]

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

We can't prove my Grandparents ever lived, beyond what my dad has said and a few photos he has of them but independantly verifying their birth dates,marriage and death dates we got el zippo!!! to say nothing about any other German relative of ours!!! why don't they appear to us?! I got time if they show up en mass!!!!!

The doctrine is that they can show up in the Millennium

I thought you might have read the Gospel Principles manual, the most elementary doctrinal manual of the church

Quote

Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records. (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:167, 251–52.)

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-45-the-millennium?lang=eng

[Duncan]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The doctrine is that they can show up in the Millennium

I thought you might have read the Gospel Principles manual, the most elementary doctrinal manual of the church

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-45-the-millennium?lang=eng

I know all that that but you indicated visions and that stuff and i'm saying why don't they happen to me, as we don't even know the basics about grandparents

[Eek!]

37 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don't think we know enough about premortality to have any idea what that might entail. It is an existence foreign to ours we have only a few scriptures about with very little discussion of the nature of that life. I expect we would barely understand or not understand at all the explanation even if it were given.

Actually the King Follet discourse touches in the whole span of eternal progression.

The part that is imo of particular interest is that we must go from "exaltation to exaltation, until [we] attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."   Now that is certainly not what they taught me in Sunday School class!  It sounds to me like we have to get an "A" not just in this Earth School class that we're presently enrolled in, but in multiple classes, and must qualify for "exaltation" more than once, before we attain the resurrection spoken of.  This might make more sense if we take seriously Jesus' injunction that we are supposed to become the same manner of men that He is - that's more than we can reasonably be expected to accomplish in seventy or so years.

My guess is that those who are apparently automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom have already aced their fair share of classes.  

[The Nehor]

Just now, Eek! said:

Actually the King Follet discourse touches in the whole span of eternal progression.

The part that is imo of particular interest is that we must go from "exaltation to exaltation, until [we] attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."   Now that is certainly not what they taught me in Sunday School class!  It sounds to me like we have to get an "A" not just in this Earth School class that we're presently enrolled in, but in multiple classes, and must qualify for "exaltation" more than once, before we attain the resurrection spoken of.  This might make more sense if we take seriously Jesus' injunction that we are supposed to become the same manner of men that He is - that's more than we can reasonably be expected to accomplish in seventy or so years.

My guess is that those who are apparently automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom have already aced their fair share of classes.  

Possible, but I am not convinced that is a good description.

[sunstoned]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

Love is the great commandment.  Love God, love our fellow men and women.  This is what counts.  This is what brings us together.  The arguments over the minutia of religious processes and policies happen when we loose sight of this great commandment. Any policy or process that detracts from or does not support this great commandment can be discounted as made of man.

[sunstoned]

9 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Better yet, why not simply perform one set of ordinances for the entire human race (deceased, still living, and yet to be born), and have done with it?  

This is really a great idea.  No kidding.  If we believe in proxy work, which we do, then lets be smart about it.  One woman baptized for all women and one man baptized for all men!

[Rain]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Have you considered that perhaps they somehow deserved that "freebie" while we did not?

I have considered that and it really bothered me. Not so much for myself, but for my young children at the time.

The implication of children under 8 always seems to be that all people over 8 needed to be here to learn/grow/whatever, but I have read nothing that says in general people who die over 8 need it more than people who die under 8. So I figure it's possible that there are people who are here because we need them here rather than they need to be here.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd love to see anything that refutes it if I am wrong. 

[notHagoth7]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

...Ordinances are to teach US, not only for the dead.  God could snap his fingers and do all this NOW if he wanted to do it that way, but this is FOR OUR BENEFIT as much as anything else....

And what happens, for example, when what was intended to be taught is eventually taught/internalized/learned?

What does scripture say of the eventual nature of temple worship?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I know all that that but you indicated visions and that stuff and i'm saying why don't they happen to me, as we don't even know the basics about grandparents

Maybe they aren't ready or maybe you aren't.

[Duncan]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe they aren't ready or maybe you aren't.

I got time!!!! if they don't think i'm worthy then we got other family members, it's multiple choice 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I have considered that and it really bothered me. Not so much for myself, but for my young children at the time.

The implication of children under 8 always seems to be that all people over 8 needed to be here to learn/grow/whatever, but I have read nothing that says in general people who die over 8 need it more than people who die under 8. So I figure it's possible that there are people who are here because we need them here rather than they need to be here.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd love to see anything that refutes it if I am wrong. 

They get to grow to adulthood in the Millenium. They are resurrected at the age at which they died.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

And what happens, for example, when what was intended to be taught is eventually taught/internalized/learned?

What does scripture say of the eventual nature of temple worship?

I don't understand the questions

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Eek! said:

Does Jesus need any other earthly ordinances?  If so, has He received them?  

No evidence one way or another in the scriptures, but it would be reasonable to asssume he has received the higher ordinances of the temple. 

[stemelbow]

17 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

I believe this will be the great work of the millennium... all will have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, accept him as their Savior, and receive all the ordinances for them to receive their glory...

GG

I'm halfway convinced that a great purpose of temple work for us is to search out our dead.  It brings meaning to us and connection to people of the past.  But in the millennium when it'll have to be God just handing out names, because there'd be no way for us to get them otherwise, that great purpose disappears.  We'll be, if your idea is true, nothing more than part of a machine that goes in and out of buildings and rooms, ticked by a counter.  Hey, I'm saying, that could be the case.  But, as I said, it sounds boring. 

[HappyJackWagon]

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

Even at present, the only thing hampering us is the availability and willingness of the Saints to do temple work for the millions of names we already have.  If and when we run out of names, then the above conditions will kick in.

 

Is this correct?

In my area the temple has placed limits on the number of Temple File names that can be done. The limits specifically relate to baptism/confirmation, initiatory and sealings (perhaps because they are faster ordinances and patrons can do many during a session instead of 1 individual endowment). I don't know if this limitation is unique to my local temple but I assume it's not.

But my point is, it seems that there are more people doing temple work than the church can provide names for. Work has often been repeated for individuals in the past. partially due to poor record keeping but perhaps possible to keep up with the demand of patrons as well.

IOW- in some ways the church seems to be running out of names. Individuals can bring their own names but again it gets into a problem of repetition when different family members do the same work for James J Smith, Jim Smith, Jimmy J Smith, Jim Johnson Smith etc. etc.

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Is this correct?

In my area the temple has placed limits on the number of Temple File names that can be done. The limits specifically relate to baptism/confirmation, initiatory and sealings (perhaps because they are faster ordinances and patrons can do many during a session instead of 1 individual endowment). I don't know if this limitation is unique to my local temple but I assume it's not.

But my point is, it seems that there are more people doing temple work than the church can provide names for. Work has often been repeated for individuals in the past. partially due to poor record keeping but perhaps possible to keep up with the demand of patrons as well.

IOW- in some ways the church seems to be running out of names. Individuals can bring their own names but again it gets into a problem of repetition when different family members do the same work for James J Smith, Jim Smith, Jimmy J Smith, Jim Johnson Smith etc. etc.

No.  You are correct.  There's been times in the past where names have been recycled because there are no more.  There have been times when the Church has cycled through names for names sake.  The Church really wants areas with new temples to be self-sufficient--wants the members in the area to produce all the names for temple work for that temple.  The Church wants temple attenders to bring names each time they go to the temple rather than just come and get a name.  It simply hasn't happened, but it's still a goal.  and one of the major reasons it hasn't happened is because they don't have easy access to digital records like families in the US have.  In some cases they barely have any records at all and most knowledge of families is in the minds of the people.  I've heard of a town old guy in Africa who could recite his family lines back 1000 years. 

Additionally members are feeling such pressure to produce names they will submit any old name they can muster for the sake of submitting.  Often if a member was aware of how to do it, they'd learn the very names they've submitted for have already had their ordinances done.  The issues get pretty messy and complex though, because how do we determine whether someone's ordinances are done or not when trees are crowd produced?  Links are drawn all over the map and its likely there are duplicate people in various stages of different trees, because frankly it's hard to tell if someone is a wife divorced remarried, had new kids, named them with the same or similar names of other kids, happened to marry the cousin of the first cousin and had the same last name, which cousin also had other kids with a previous wife with the same first name of the second wife, which first wife also went on to have children with another man....family lines get all twisted up and people tend to become duplicated in the tree unconnected to previously established lines. 

But it'll all get sorted out so who cares?  But no, the Church puts such pressure and emphasis in temple work because the process tends to struggle. 

[Gray]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Because you need individual commitments 

That is what the gospel is about.  It is not about humanity as a whole.  That misses the entire point.  The relationship is between the individual and God

That's like saying let's just snap our fingers and now everyone is married to everyone else.  

That obviously cancels the whole idea of marriage.  

Ordinances for all is ordinances for none.

I'm not sure why it would matter on their end. But then again, maybe it has nothing to do with them, and everything to do with us. 

[Sleeper Cell]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Because you need individual commitments 

That is what the gospel is about.  It is not about humanity as a whole.  That misses the entire point.  The relationship is between the individual and God

That's like saying let's just snap our fingers and now everyone is married to everyone else.  

That obviously cancels the whole idea of marriage.  

Ordinances for all is ordinances for none.

I was trying to inject a little humor.

… Apparently, very little humor.  

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

No.  You are correct.  There's been times in the past where names have been recycled because there are no more.  There have been times when the Church has cycled through names for names sake.  The Church really wants areas with new temples to be self-sufficient--wants the members in the area to produce all the names for temple work for that temple.  The Church wants temple attenders to bring names each time they go to the temple rather than just come and get a name.  It simply hasn't happened, but it's still a goal.  and one of the major reasons it hasn't happened is because they don't have easy access to digital records like families in the US have.  In some cases they barely have any records at all and most knowledge of families is in the minds of the people.  I've heard of a town old guy in Africa who could recite his family lines back 1000 years. 

Additionally members are feeling such pressure to produce names they will submit any old name they can muster for the sake of submitting.  Often if a member was aware of how to do it, they'd learn the very names they've submitted for have already had their ordinances done.  The issues get pretty messy and complex though, because how do we determine whether someone's ordinances are done or not when trees are crowd produced?  Links are drawn all over the map and its likely there are duplicate people in various stages of different trees, because frankly it's hard to tell if someone is a wife divorced remarried, had new kids, named them with the same or similar names of other kids, happened to marry the cousin of the first cousin and had the same last name, which cousin also had other kids with a previous wife with the same first name of the second wife, which first wife also went on to have children with another man....family lines get all twisted up and people tend to become duplicated in the tree unconnected to previously established lines. 

But it'll all get sorted out so who cares?  But no, the Church puts such pressure and emphasis in temple work because the process tends to struggle. 

I love the cards you get and it says "Mr. Freek" or Mrs. Sippy" like they obviously don't know the first name or anything so ah, just call them Mr. or Miss or whatever!

[JLHPROF]

14 hours ago, Eek! said:

Does Jesus need any other earthly ordinances?  If so, has He received them?

Christ received every ordinance.

Baptism - Matt 3:13-16 check!
Confirmation - (although perhaps not in the traditional sense)  Matt 3:16-17 check!
Priesthood keys - Matthew 17:1-3 (compare D&C 110) check!
Endowment - a little trickier, but probably Luke 4 and Matthew 4's 40 days. check!
Marriage - Luke 10:38-42/John 2 check!
Second Anointing - Matthew 26:6-13; Mark 14:3-9; Luke 7:36-50; John 12:1-8 check!

Yep, all of them.  And unlike the rest of us he didn't need to progress in worthiness or preparation.  He was pure enough from the beginning.

Edited September 27, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Eek!]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No evidence one way or another in the scriptures, but it would be reasonable to asssume he has received the higher ordinances of the temple. 

If there was not a properly functioning temple when Jesus was on the earth, and if the ordinances need to be performed in an earthly temple for everyone, then when could He have received them?  Or would they have to be done vicariously?  Of course we don't know the answer.  But IF the assumption is that everyone needs the higher ordinances in order to "make it", and IF that includes Jesus, THEN imo it is reasonable to wonder when and where He COULD HAVE received them.  Not that this is all that big a deal, but I think that proposing even a possible answer calls for stepping outside the box.  

Edited September 27, 2016 by Eek!

[Bernard Gui]

39 minutes ago, Eek! said:

If there was not a properly functioning temple when Jesus was on the earth, and if the ordinances need to be performed in an earthly temple for everyone, then when could He have received them?  Or would they have to be done vicariously?  Of course we don't know the answer.  But IF the assumption is that everyone needs the higher ordinances in order to "make it", and IF that includes Jesus, THEN imo it is reasonable to wonder when and where He COULD HAVE received them.  Not that this is all that big a deal, but I think that proposing even a possible answer calls for stepping outside the box.  

I never have liked the idea that we "make it" into the celestial kingdom. When, where, or how it happened, I wish I could have been there. That would be something! As Alma said, Now these mysteries are not yet fully made known unto me; therefore I shall forbear.