universal ordinances?

[Duncan]

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

[Gray]

No, I don't see these as passports to heaven. They have symbolic meaning that refers to something of greater importance than the ordinances themselves. 

[ksfisher]

I'm not aware of Christ or any of the prophets ever teaching that these were not universal, so yes, they are applicable to all.  And you are aware, I'm sure, that only the sealing ordinance is needed for those who die before the age of eight

[Jeanne]

No.

[bluebell]

Yes, I do. 

[Boanerges]

I'm in the "not an absolute necessity" camp. I think it's far more important to believe in Christ (and such belief might be demonstrated by participation int he ordinances) and love my neighbor.

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

Yes, everyone needs all the ordinances to become exalted, and the opportunity to accept them will be afforded to all. The problem of a lack of a vital record is easily surmounted by assistance from advanced science and/or advanced beings; there are other kinds physical records, and ways to make and extract them, than on paper.

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy?

Yes.

Quote

Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed.

Well, not really.  Consider these remarks by Brigham Young:

Quote

In the Millennium, when the Kingdom of God is established on the earth in power, glory and perfection, and the reign of wickedness that has so long prevailed is subdued, the Saints of God will have the privilege of building their temples, and of entering into them, becoming, as it were, pillars in the temples of God, and they will officiate for their dead. Then we will see our friends come up, and perhaps some that we have been acquainted with here. If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is - Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them when they shall have been officiated for, and bring them up. And we will have revelations to know our forefathers clear back to Father Adam and Mother Eve, and we will enter into the temples of God and officiate for them. Then man will be sealed to man until the chain is made perfect back to Adam, so that there will be a perfect chain of Priesthood from Adam to the winding-up scene. This will be the work of the Latter-day Saints in the Millennium. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.116)

Even at present, the only thing hampering us is the availability and willingness of the Saints to do temple work for the millions of names we already have.  If and when we run out of names, then the above conditions will kick in.

Quote

But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

In order to attain the Celestial Kingdom, yes.

Moreover, these ordinances will only have efficacy if they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.  Nobody will be compelled or coerced to accept these ordinances.

Thanks,

-Smac

[stemelbow]

Those for whom ordinances have been done, have had them done multiple times in our modern day.  We can do this much easier if we didn't have to produce a record of someone's existence before we can do the ordinance.  Names are simply not known for the vast majority of this earth's history.  We'll never know them unless it is possible God tells us the names.  When/if the time comes that God tells us the names what does it matter?  We might as well be baptizing and sealing numbers and replacing those numbers with names as much as possible.  1-1 hundred billion.  God will sort it out either way.

My idea went to familysearch people and right out their earholes.  But I'll give it to them again.  I enjoy family history work but it's not getting us anywhere in terms of denting the 100 billion people who have lived.  I know during the millennium our temples will be open 24/7 and people will be going in and out constantly to capacity.  But that sounds boring.  I think we can do better. 

[Bernard Gui]

I don't see how God could be just if he required it of a few, but not of all.

I don't see how God could be merciful if he gave the opportunity to a few, but not to all.

The doctrine was established explicitly by Nephi....IMO, one of the plain and precious things that was restored through the Book of Mormon.

This is one of the few scriptural passages that record the words of God the Father. Even Jesus had to be baptized. We are numbered to the Father and we have an eternity to finish the work. By the way, this is why I cannot accept Calvinism, but that's another discussion.

Quote

Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world. And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove. And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.....

Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastnessin Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Sleeper Cell]

41 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Those for whom ordinances have been done, have had them done multiple times in our modern day.  We can do this much easier if we didn't have to produce a record of someone's existence before we can do the ordinance.  Names are simply not known for the vast majority of this earth's history.  We'll never know them unless it is possible God tells us the names.  When/if the time comes that God tells us the names what does it matter?  We might as well be baptizing and sealing numbers and replacing those numbers with names as much as possible.  1-1 hundred billion.  God will sort it out either way.

My idea went to familysearch people and right out their earholes.  But I'll give it to them again.  I enjoy family history work but it's not getting us anywhere in terms of denting the 100 billion people who have lived.  I know during the millennium our temples will be open 24/7 and people will be going in and out constantly to capacity.  But that sounds boring.  I think we can do better. 

Better yet, why not simply perform one set of ordinances for the entire human race (deceased, still living, and yet to be born), and have done with it?  

[hope_for_things]

No, not universally.  Nothing supernatural about the ordinance itself.  Its about the symbolism and commitment.  Sincerity is key, and goodness is the measurement of the lives we live, not some ritual.  

[Duncan]

Just now, Sleeper Cell said:

Better yet, why not simply perform one set of ordinances for the entire human race (deceased, still living, and yet to be born), and have done with it?  

One thing I wonder about too is marriage sealings. Obviously if you get married and sealed here then it's no problem and hopefully you both make it to the next life with sealing intact. But what if you are single and never get sealed here? In the next life you can be afforded that opportunity but who does your sealing work here though? Does God say to someone that Clarence and Hortense Luffafupple were sealed in heaven so we need two folks on earth to do their work or they want to be sealed so we need two people on earth to be proxy, how does that work? If they don't need proxies then why can't God seal people already married and we are just wasting time getting sealed in the Temple here.

[halconero]

Yes. 100% yes to whether the ordinances carry a necessary quality.

With regards to your question, all significant dissertations on the Millennium indicate that the veil will be extremely thin, and that Resurrected and Not-Yet-Resurrected beings will regularly interact with the mortal inhabitants of the earth. So, I can imagine that either a couple will ask directly for their work to be performed via proxy, or send a resurrected messenger boy.

Edited September 26, 2016 by halconero

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Better yet, why not simply perform one set of ordinances for the entire human race (deceased, still living, and yet to be born), and have done with it?  

We're all to be sealed and linked together anyway.  I kind of like the one at a time part of it better though.  It gets us a bit closer to being a part of it.  I'd be all for going name by name but since we don't know the names for each individual who has ever lived, not even close, and we repeat ordinances for names we do have over and over, it seems reasonable to figure out a different method.  But whateves.  They won't hear it.

[stemelbow]

9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

No, not universally.  Nothing supernatural about the ordinance itself.  Its about the symbolism and commitment.  Sincerity is key, and goodness is the measurement of the lives we live, not some ritual.  

I agree.

[cdowis]

20 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Better yet, why not simply perform one set of ordinances for the entire human race (deceased, still living, and yet to be born), and have done with it?  

That was Satan's plan, and that did not work out,did it.

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, halconero said:

Yes. 100% yes to whether the ordinances carry a necessary quality.

With regards to your question, all significant dissertations on the Millennium indicate that the veil will be extremely thin, and that Resurrected and Not-Yet-Resurrected beings will regularly interact with the mortal inhabitants of the earth. So, I can imagine that either a couple will ask directly for their work to be performed via proxy, or send a resurrected messenger boy.

even people with intellectual disabilities need baptism and everything else? 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

Yes.  Absolutely 100%.

BUT - it is not a checklist.  There still needs to be a corresponding change along with the ordinance.
Otherwise we'd just give everybody every ordinance right away and we'd all be guaranteed exaltation.

But yes, the ordinances are 100% necessary.

[halconero]

35 minutes ago, Duncan said:

even people with intellectual disabilities need baptism and everything else? 

 I would imagine so, given that by all indications those disabilities are a condition of mortality.

[Eek!]

I think that a major reason for temple work is the "turning of the hearts of the children to the fathers".  

Jesus may have been baptized as an example rather than because He needed it.  However if He did indeed need the ordinance of baptism then obviously He needs the other ordinances as well, so have they been done for Him?  

Whether the ordinances are required or not for everyone I do not know, but if so, imo nobody will be cheated.  While it is easy for us to think up scenarios wherein someone gets cheated, God is much smarter than we are, and He can think up work-arounds that we cannot.  This is of course based on the assumption that God is good, God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons.

I happen to believe that multiple mortal probations ("reincarnation") is a possibility (based largely on an experience that was confirmed by someone old enough to remember events that I had no knowledge of), in which case we may not need to do temple work for everyone going back to Adam in order to effectively be all-inclusive.  

Edited September 26, 2016 by Eek!

[mnn727]

55 minutes ago, Duncan said:

even people with intellectual disabilities need baptism and everything else? 

No. I know of 2 people (both sons of friends) that were mentally handicapped (both were childlike even as adults) that did not need to be baptized.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Those for whom ordinances have been done, have had them done multiple times in our modern day.  We can do this much easier if we didn't have to produce a record of someone's existence before we can do the ordinance.  Names are simply not known for the vast majority of this earth's history.  We'll never know them unless it is possible God tells us the names.  When/if the time comes that God tells us the names what does it matter?  We might as well be baptizing and sealing numbers and replacing those numbers with names as much as possible.  1-1 hundred billion.  God will sort it out either way.

My idea went to familysearch people and right out their earholes.  But I'll give it to them again.  I enjoy family history work but it's not getting us anywhere in terms of denting the 100 billion people who have lived.  I know during the millennium our temples will be open 24/7 and people will be going in and out constantly to capacity.  But that sounds boring.  I think we can do better. 

How about we baptize and endow one person for and on behalf of [everyone who ever lived on earth]? Much more efficient!

 

ETA: Sleeper Cell beat me to it!

Edited September 26, 2016 by Gray

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

 If they don't need proxies then why can't God seal people already married and we are just wasting time getting sealed in the Temple here.

The fact that we didn't adopt the block schedule until 1980 would strongly indicate that "efficient use of time" isn't something that God cares much about.

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Do you think that everyone who has ever lived needs to be baptized, confirmed, endowed and sealed to someone, whether they do it in life or by proxy? Obviously we are hampered by the fact that millions of people were never recorded, incomplete information, destroyed. But aside from all that does everyone need to have all these essentials ordinances done?

You are talking about the never-ending tension in the Church between a belief in "essential ordinances" and a God that isn't stupid. 

Ultimately, I think most LDS would believe that everyone who deserves to go to the Celestial Kingdom will, so either there will be some way for them to get their ordinances done, or they'll be excused from needing those ordinances.  A religion that posits a God that would keep otherwise deserving people out of the the Celestial Kingdom only because their names hadn't been printed out on slip of paper at the Temple probably has created a God far pettier and cruel than anything in the Old Testament.