waveslider Posted September 16, 2016 Posted September 16, 2016 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: If one reads the Book of Mormon and prays about it, Satan will answer your prayers. That's what I was told by an EV friend, daughter of a Baptist minister. Could be, I suppose. Your EV friend might want to learn the difference from channeling compared to prayer. Satan will answer channeling, but he won't ever be allowed to answer a sincere prayer to God: "7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matthew 7:7-11 3
Bernard Gui Posted September 16, 2016 Posted September 16, 2016 58 minutes ago, waveslider said: Your EV friend might want to learn the difference from channeling compared to prayer. Satan will answer channeling, but he won't ever be allowed to answer a sincere prayer to God: "7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matthew 7:7-11 Indeed. Thanks for the quote.
boblloyd91 Posted September 16, 2016 Posted September 16, 2016 52 minutes ago, waveslider said: Your EV friend might want to learn the difference from channeling compared to prayer. Satan will answer channeling, but he won't ever be allowed to answer a sincere prayer to God: "7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matthew 7:7-11 That's one of my favorite verses. It also reminds me of a common experience I have heard of from numerous missionaries (as well as myself). A person is struggling, and prays for help. The missionaries show up almost immediately after the prayer. To take the idea of Satan answering prayers regarding Mormonism seriously, one would have to also accept that someone who was merely praying for help (with nothing to do with Mormonism) was answered by Satan. And since scripture plainly states that God is more powerful then Satan, then we would have to surmise that God allowed Satan to deceive someone who was asking for help. That to me is evil.
notHagoth7 Posted September 16, 2016 Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, RevTestament said: The two witnesses of Rev 11:3 don't seem to accept the Sola Scriptura view of the Protestants, and prophecy or give revelation for 3.5 years. Sola Scriptura tells the people not to listen to them... seems you can't have it both ways. 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Matthew 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. What sort of "Bible" permission is she looking to find? It's not going to have the words "Book of Mormon" in it. Might help to find something if we knew what the Bible would have to say to convince her. 4 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Ezekiel 37:15-17 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. Revelation only says not to change the Book of Revelation. Deut 4 says that too, but prophets kept on adding more books, or we wouldn't have the book of Revelation. That is about the best argument you can make with those who accept the Protestant view. 1) As to RevTestament's first post, the timeline for the two witnesses is that they would be slain at the end of 1260 days. I can demonstrate elsewhere in scripture where "day" in Daniel and Revelation are poetic speak for "year". The Book of Revelation, according to its own first chapter, was written to the churches of Asia Minor, who have been under Muslim rule for centuries. John knew such would be the case. His message was couched in what they would understand. Year 1260 of the Muslim calendar (which their government used) ended in mid 1844. Shortly afterwards, Joseph and Hyrum were slain on June 27, 1844. 2) As to JHLProf's and TST's quotes from a few passages, many Bible translators note that John 10:16 is a parallel to the promises in Ezekiel 37. (If your Bibles include cross references, there is a reasonable chance that they cross reference each other.) For example, the most widely used Danish Bible in my mission, which was produced by Lutherans rather than LDS, included a cross-reference between those two passages - essentially the Shepherd would unite his people through his word/records to his various peoples. To continue the account in Ezekiel 37 a few verses beyond the initial citation: ...And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them." Two prophets slain in 1844. A message of Christ's visit to his sheep in Palestine that would one day be joined to his message to his other sheep elsewhere...for the purpose of uniting and cleansing his people. The Book of Mormon. In 1844, tens of thousands of Christians outside the LDS faith expected prophecy to be fulfilled that very year, based on the prophetic timelines in Daniel and the Book of Revelation. It made headline news... But then nothing happened that newspapers, historians, or pastors would acknowledge to be the fulfillment of God's promises - and most of them swept the prophetic expectation under the carpet. As in: "Please disperse. There's nothing to see here folks. Move along." Yet, to this day, millions of Christians who are remnants of that movement (which now include 7th-Day Adventists) still teach that 1844 was and is prophetic. As do millions from an outgrowth of Islam (including what is now known as the Baha'i faith) also concluded (and still teach) that year 1260 of their calendar would see key fulfillment of God's promises. Joseph Smith's ministry was foretold. Christ's visit to his other sheep was foretold (i.e. the Nephite record), as was the uniting of the word of that visitation with the Bible account, and that the uniting of that other account would serve to unify and gather God's people in the last days under the Shepherd...that they might be made clean. Also, I suggest doing a search for "1844 in Prophecy" to explore the prophetic timeline for Joseph's ministry from Bible timelines. Edited September 16, 2016 by notHagoth7 2
Larry Cotrell Posted September 16, 2016 Posted September 16, 2016 Satan has discovered that the closer something is to the truth, the more people believe it. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
The Nehor Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: If one reads the Book of Mormon and prays about it, Satan will answer your prayers. That's what I was told by an EV friend, daughter of a Baptist minister. Could be, I suppose. Well if God cannot be bothered to get off his duff and answer prayers I guess Satan is a close second in getting to the source of truth.
JLHPROF Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 13 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said: Satan has discovered that the closer something is to the truth, the more people believe it. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Satan has known that from the very beginning. He has been counterfeiting God's work since the garden.
The Nehor Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 9 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said: Satan has discovered that the closer something is to the truth, the more people believe it. True, but for some people the less true it is the more likely they are to perversely believe it anyways. 1
notHagoth7 Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said: Satan has discovered that the closer something is to the truth, the more people believe it. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. And, on the other side of the scale, He *promised* to send prophets and wise men and scribes. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/23.34,39?lang=eng#33 What then? Edited September 17, 2016 by notHagoth7 1
mfbukowski Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 5 hours ago, Christian Mormon said: She says that Revelations says that you're not supposed to add to or take away from. But I already know all the answers to that. I was hoping there was something that says it's okay to add scripture. Amos? too lazy to look it up. Something like "the Lord does not do anything but he reveals it to his prophets". implies more prophets, more revelation 2
Eek! Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) If someone is using an external barometer of truth, be it a religious text or the words of religious leaders, that person is putting their faith in the wrong place(s) and is overlooking the still, small voice. That being said, you can only work with what you've got, and in this case it's not hopeless. You might try the "other sheep have I, which are not of this fold" angle, in John 10;16 Ask them if they'd like to know about those other sheep. That might at least raise the person's curiosity. Ask them whether they think Jesus' words to and dealings with those other sheep would be in accord with God's will. You might remind them that the Gospels contain only a small fraction of the works of Jesus: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." John 21:25 Getting back to John 10:16, the idea there will be "one fold and one shepherd" certainly implies that the scriptures of those other sheep will become part of the canon of the one big fold. I suggest not telliing them about 3rd Nephi chapter 15... let them discover it for themselves. (Note that Jesus told the Nephites that there were yet other sheep, besides them... 3rd Nephi 16:1-3... putting the hypothetical shoe on the other hypothetical foot, I wonder how many LDS would be open to that book of scripture, if it doesn't come through "church approved" channels?) Edited September 17, 2016 by Eek! 1
Jane_Doe Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 5 hours ago, Christian Mormon said: I wish I could find in the Bible where it is okay to read the book of Mormon. My relative says that she will only read the book of Mormon if the Bible tells her it's okay to read it. Does the Bible tell her not to read it? No.
Jane_Doe Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 5 hours ago, Christian Mormon said: She says that Revelations says that you're not supposed to add to or take away from. But I already know all the answers to that. I was hoping there was something that says it's okay to add scripture. Simple: an unchanging God does not cease His ways of speak to men.
mfbukowski Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 7 minutes ago, Eek! said: If someone is using an external barometer of truth, be it a religious text or the words of religious leaders, that person is putting their faith in the wrong place(s) and is overlooking the still, small voice. That being said, you can only work with what you've got, and in this case it's not hopeless. You might try the "other sheep have I, which are not of this fold" angle (John 10;16) That might at least raise the person's curiosity, and the idea there will be "one fold and one shepherd" implies that any scriptures of those other sheep will become part of the canon of the one big fold. Bible idolatry Besides that, there's nothing in there about brushing your teeth. 1
CV75 Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 5 hours ago, Christian Mormon said: I wish I could find in the Bible where it is okay to read the book of Mormon. My relative says that she will only read the book of Mormon if the Bible tells her it's okay to read it. I think it says it's OK to Steal This Book
waveslider Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said: 1) As to RevTestament's first post, the timeline for the two witnesses is that they would be slain at the end of 1260 days. I can demonstrate elsewhere in scripture where "day" in Daniel and Revelation are poetic speak for "year". The Book of Revelation, according to its own first chapter, was written to the churches of Asia Minor, who have been under Muslim rule for centuries. John knew such would be the case. His message was couched in what they would understand. Year 1260 of the Muslim calendar (which their government used) ended in mid 1844. Shortly afterwards, Joseph and Hyrum were slain on June 27, 1844. That is an interesting take on it, but it has some really big holes in it because Revelations explains what happened after these two prophets were killed: "7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." Revelation 11:7-13 That last time I checked Joseph and Hyrum were buried, not left out to be seen and rejoiced over for three and a half years, or even literal days for that matter. I certainly haven't heard of their enemies witnessing them answer a call to get up and rise up into heaven, and then after ascending, having a huge Earthquake killing seven thousand residents of a large city, and having a tenth of that city fall. I still tend to think that there will still be two more prophets who actually go through all of this stuff at a latter date.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 6 hours ago, cinepro said: It occurs to me that while I don't know if Mormons invented proof-texting, we sure as heck perfected it. For both evangelicals and Mormons there is really nothing like a good Bible bash. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 6 hours ago, Christian Mormon said: She says that Revelations says that you're not supposed to add to or take away from. But I already know all the answers to that. .................................................. You may understand it, but does she? Because if she believes incorrectly that the book of Revelation (22:18) is referring to the whole Bible, then you will always lose that argument. Thus, she needs first of all to understand that adding to scripture has never been prohibited, and that prohibitions on adding to a particular book are not meant to be taken for the whole Bible. For example, Deuteronomy 4:2 commands not to add to or take away from the commandments of the Lord. Does that mean that everything in the Bible after Deuteronomy is illicit? Or does that refer to unauthorized additions and subtractions?
Robert F. Smith Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 7 hours ago, snowflake said: Ummmm....these verses have nothing to do with the book of Mormon. What do they refer to? D&C 27:5
carbon dioxide Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 8 hours ago, Christian Mormon said: I wish I could find in the Bible where it is okay to read the book of Mormon. My relative says that she will only read the book of Mormon if the Bible tells her it's okay to read it. The Bible does not even say to read the Bible.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said: Satan has discovered that the closer something is to the truth, the more people believe it. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Excellent point, Larry. Now the question is how to discern the true from the false. Some people turn to the Holy Spirit of Truth. 2
RevTestament Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 2 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: 1) As to RevTestament's first post, the timeline for the two witnesses is that they would be slain at the end of 1260 days. I can demonstrate elsewhere in scripture where "day" in Daniel and Revelation are poetic speak for "year". The Book of Revelation, according to its own first chapter, was written to the churches of Asia Minor, who have been under Muslim rule for centuries. John knew such would be the case. His message was couched in what they would understand. Year 1260 of the Muslim calendar (which their government used) ended in mid 1844. Shortly afterwards, Joseph and Hyrum were slain on June 27, 1844. Two prophets slain in 1844. A message of Christ's visit to his sheep in Palestine that would one day be joined to his message to his other sheep elsewhere...for the purpose of uniting and cleansing his people. The Book of Mormon. In 1844, tens of thousands of Christians outside the LDS faith expected prophecy to be fulfilled that very year, based on the prophetic timelines in Daniel and the Book of Revelation. It made headline news... But then nothing happened that newspapers, historians, or pastors would acknowledge to be the fulfillment of God's promises - and most of them swept the prophetic expectation under the carpet. As in: "Please disperse. There's nothing to see here folks. Move along. Yet, to this day, millions of Christians who are remnants of that movement (which now include 7th-Day Adventists) still teach that 1844 was and is prophetic. As do millions from an outgrowth of Islam (including what is now known as the Baha'i faith) also concluded (and still teach) that year 1260 of their calendar would see key fulfillment of God's promises. Joseph Smith's ministry was foretold. Christ's visit to his other sheep was foretold (i.e. the Nephite record), as was the uniting of the word of that visitation with the Bible account, and that the uniting of that other account would serve to unify and gather God's people in the last days under the Shepherd...that they might be made clean. Also, I suggest doing a search for "1844 in Prophecy" to explore the prophetic timeline for Joseph's ministry from Bible timelines. One (or more) glaring problem with your theory - there was no rapture nor resurrection of with your two witnesses. Joseph Smith's body did not lie in the streets, and get resurrected in the eyes of all who looked on. Nor did Joseph Smith prophesy for 1260 yrs. Nor did Joseph Smith prophesy to Jerusalem - well maybe Jerusalem, NY. While I agree that one day is sometimes used prophetically for a year, it is also divided in to hours and increments up to a thousand years, and I believe also generations in Genesis. It depends on its usage. The 1260 yrs actually ended with Alvin's birth in 1798 when Napolean's general Berthier captured the bishop of Rome. The 1260 days of prophecy by the two witnesses is literal. That is also the length of Yeshua's ministry to Jerusalem. They come to prophesy to Jerusalem before His return there for He told them "you shall not see me again, till you say 'blessed is he that cometh in the name of YHWH.'" Cheers.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 3 hours ago, notHagoth7 said: 1) As to RevTestament's first post, the timeline for the two witnesses is that they would be slain at the end of 1260 days. I can demonstrate elsewhere in scripture where "day" in Daniel and Revelation are poetic speak for "year". The Book of Revelation, according to its own first chapter, was written to the churches of Asia Minor, who have been under Muslim rule for centuries. John knew such would be the case. His message was couched in what they would understand. Year 1260 of the Muslim calendar (which their government used) ended in mid 1844. Shortly afterwards, Joseph and Hyrum were slain on June 27, 1844. ............................................................................ Yet, to this day, millions of Christians who are remnants of that movement (which now include 7th-Day Adventists) still teach that 1844 was and is prophetic. As do millions from an outgrowth of Islam (including what is now known as the Baha'i faith) also concluded (and still teach) that year 1260 of their calendar would see key fulfillment of God's promises. Joseph Smith's ministry was foretold. Christ's visit to his other sheep was foretold (i.e. the Nephite record), as was the uniting of the word of that visitation with the Bible account, and that the uniting of that other account would serve to unify and gather God's people in the last days under the Shepherd...that they might be made clean. Also, I suggest doing a search for "1844 in Prophecy" to explore the prophetic timeline for Joseph's ministry from Bible timelines. Yeh, but why the Islamic lunar year as the base? Why aren't you using the Jewish calendar?
Guest Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 8 hours ago, Christian Mormon said: I wish I could find in the Bible where it is okay to read the book of Mormon. My relative says that she will only read the book of Mormon if the Bible tells her it's okay to read it. I have heard this a few times...it is a deflection tool that is meant to shut down discussion and gives the person a way out of learning anything other than what their Pastor says. The Bible does say that we all will "...be judged by every word that proceedeth out of the month of God".
Duncan Posted September 17, 2016 Posted September 17, 2016 8 hours ago, Christian Mormon said: I wish I could find in the Bible where it is okay to read the book of Mormon. My relative says that she will only read the book of Mormon if the Bible tells her it's okay to read it. does she only do things when the Bible tells her to do so? it doesn't say anything about ordering KFC but we do it or watching TV but we do that too
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