Hopewell (Nephite) Iron axes

[rodheadlee]

35 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Here a dialog from Mormon chapter 10.  This is just one battle. I will let you count how many leaders fell with their "ten thousand".  

 

 10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

 11 And when they had gone through and hewn down allmy people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

 12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

 13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

 14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

 15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, evenall my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth

 

26 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Maybe we should turn to the text of the BoM.  Here Nephi explains in clear language what the state of their metallurgy technology was:

2 Nephi 5:14-15

:And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords...And I did teach my people to...work in all manner of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel" 

 

 

There is approximately 973 years between these 2 quotes. You can't really assume they had the same weapons or even the same technology. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by rodheadlee

[Sevenbak]

18 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Maybe we should turn to the text of the BoM.  Here Nephi explains in clear language what the state of their metallurgy technology was:

2 Nephi 5:14-15

:And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords...And I did teach my people to...work in all manner of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel" 

 

 

Yes, 800 years earlier than Cumorah, having just come from a culture where iron and steel were used and understood.  Did the technology follow the Nephites to the end, even when they fell into darkness and lost all enlightenment and became idle?  I don't know, the text doesn't specify that they had iron or steel weapons at Cumorah. Perhaps they did, but non-meteoric iron rusts away.  And while there are a few Hopewell culture digs where reports of iron swords crumbling to dust when exposed to the air, the fact remains that there is not sufficient proof of wide spread use of iron, either among the Hopewell, or in the BoM text.

[Sevenbak]

6 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

 

There is approximately 973 years between these 2 quotes. You can't really assume they had the same weapons or even the same technology. 

Ah, ya beat me to it!!!

[sunstoned]

13 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

You still haven't answered the question.  Where is the steel armor, headplates, breastplates, etc. in the text?

Let me include verse 9, that you left out...

9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.

Nowhere does it even say the Nephite swords were steel, and they used lots of other methods for inflicting death.  Since we know that meteoric iron was used on occasion by the Hopewell culture, as evidenced by artifacts, we also know it was rare.  Ironically, iron ornaments ARE mentioned in the BoM text.   I find it pretty incredible that iron sheeting and iron plating was indeed used by the Hopewell for decorative purposes.

Have you read the BoM? Do you really need me to point this stuff out to you?

Alma 43:18-21
18 And it came to pass that he met the Lamanites in the borders of Jershon, and his people were armed with swords, and with cimeters, and all manner of weapons of war. 
19 And when the armies of the Lamanites saw that the people of Nephi, or that Moroni, had prepared his people with breastplates and with arm-shields, yea, and also shields to defend their heads, and also they were dressed with thick clothing-- 
20 Now the army of Zerahemnah was not prepared with any such thing; they had only their swords and their cimeters, their bows and their arrows, their stones and their slings; and they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins; yea, all were naked, save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites; 
21 But they were not armed with breastplates, nor shields--therefore, they were exceedingly afraid of the armies of the Nephites because of their armor, notwithstanding their number being so much greater than the Nephites.

And Gidgiddoni did cause that they should make weapons of war of every kind, and they should be strong with armor, and with shields, and with bucklers, after the manner of his instruction. (3 Nephi 3:26)

And they did work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did work all manner of fine work.  Ether 10:23

Alma 46:13

And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—

Alma 46:21

And it came to pass that when Moroni had proclaimed these words, behold, the people came running together with their armor girded about their loins, rending their garments in token, or as a covenant, that they would not forsake the Lord their God; or, in other words, if they should transgress the commandments of God, or fall into transgression, and be ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ, the Lord should rend them even as they had rent their garments.
 

 

 

[Sevenbak]

1 minute ago, sunstoned said:

Have you read the BoM? Do you really need me to point this stuff out to you?

Alma 43:18-21
18 And it came to pass that he met the Lamanites in the borders of Jershon, and his people were armed with swords, and with cimeters, and all manner of weapons of war. 
19 And when the armies of the Lamanites saw that the people of Nephi, or that Moroni, had prepared his people with breastplates and with arm-shields, yea, and also shields to defend their heads, and also they were dressed with thick clothing-- 
20 Now the army of Zerahemnah was not prepared with any such thing; they had only their swords and their cimeters, their bows and their arrows, their stones and their slings; and they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins; yea, all were naked, save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites; 
21 But they were not armed with breastplates, nor shields--therefore, they were exceedingly afraid of the armies of the Nephites because of their armor, notwithstanding their number being so much greater than the Nephites.

And Gidgiddoni did cause that they should make weapons of war of every kind, and they should be strong with armor, and with shields, and with bucklers, after the manner of his instruction. (3 Nephi 3:26)

And they did work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did work all manner of fine work.  Ether 10:23

Alma 46:13

And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—

Alma 46:21

And it came to pass that when Moroni had proclaimed these words, behold, the people came running together with their armor girded about their loins, rending their garments in token, or as a covenant, that they would not forsake the Lord their God; or, in other words, if they should transgress the commandments of God, or fall into transgression, and be ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ, the Lord should rend them even as they had rent their garments.
 

 

 

Yes, I need you to point it out.   And yes, I read the BoM.   Except for the Jaredite reference from over a thousand years ealier, please show me where iron or steel was used in any weapons, armor, shields, etc. after Nephi copied Laban's sword.  And even Nephi says "after the manner of it", we don't even know if he used iron to make his swords, but I'm guessing he did.   For all we know, "after the manner of it" could have looked like this...

[sunstoned]

4 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Yes, I need you to point it out.   And yes, I read the BoM.   Except for the Jaredite reference from over a thousand years ealier, please show me where iron or steel was used in any weapons, armor, shields, etc. after Nephi copied Laban's sword.  And even Nephi says "after the manner of it", we don't even know if he used iron to make his swords, but I'm guessing he did.   For all we know, "after the manner of it" could have looked like this...

The scriptures I quoted speak for  themselves.  To deny a common reading is just silly. It is obvious the BoM narrative is about a large population that is well equipped and well versed in metallurgy. No chapel mormon would disagree with this. Mormon art supports this.  The only people who want to twist the meaning are the apologist, and that isn't working out too well.  The Maxwell institute has moved on. There is nothing to be gained defending the indefensible. In other words, no sense beating a dead horse, um, I mean tapir.  

[Sevenbak]

30 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

The scriptures I quoted speak for  themselves.  To deny a common reading is just silly. It is obvious the BoM narrative is about a large population that is well equipped and well versed in metallurgy. No chapel mormon would disagree with this. Mormon art supports this.  The only people who want to twist the meaning are the apologist, and that isn't working out too well.  The Maxwell institute has moved on. There is nothing to be gained defending the indefensible. In other words, no sense beating a dead horse, um, I mean tapir.  

The scriptures you quoted may speak to you that way, but they don't say what you're reading into them.   Common readings can sometimes be the foolish interpretations of men.  Were there iron swords among the early Nephites, yes.  Were they plentiful and commonplace?  Inconclusive. Is iron armor or shields even mentioned in the text, No.   Did they have have widespread metallurgy?  Absolutely.   Copper doesn't rust and dissapear, so we know it was very common among ancient American cultures as weapons and armor, and is quite plentiful in ruins as artifacts, as well as the text.

[Rajah Manchou]

6 hours ago, Hagoth said:

Before Thomas' report the only people doing "archaeology" were hobbyists trying to prove their biased expectations, which were that the Indians were degenerate savages incapable of creating the mounds and artifacts, and who must have killed off the superior white people who really did those things. Who those superior people were varied wildly (Israelites, Welch, Norsemen, Atlanteans, Masonic knights,..) but they all  shared a common racist theme. That, of course, made it much more palatable to remove those unworthy savage interlopers from the promised land and take possession of it. Manifest destiny and all that. 

This is why you find validation for your theories in these pre-scientific testimonies. The book of Mormon was written in an environment where this was the commonly accepted (and highly motivated) myth. The BoM author was only retelling another version of the story that pretty much everyone already believed, in one form or another. Modern Mormons seem to think the Book of Mormon gives some kind of exciting new telling of the history of the Americas, when in fact it just sticks to the common misconception of the time. That is why people keep going off the rails on Solomon Spaulding and Ethan Smith, assuming that the broad similarities must be due to plagiarism. There is absolutely no reason to suppose a correlation because all three were just riffing on the same theme that was the common misunderstanding of their time.

Was the common belief in the 1820s that the native Americans replaced these 'superior races' or that they descended from them?

One of the earliest and most vociferous proponents of the 'lost race' theory was the antiquarian and author Benjamin Smith Barton. He wrote a travelogue in 1797 in which he proposed that the mounds were built by Danes who then migrated to Mexico and became the Toltecs. Caleb Atwater, the postmaster of Circleville, Ohio, reached a similar conclusion in 1820. A careful researcher who made many detailed and accurate descriptions of the mounds, Atwater nonetheless fell prey to the prevailing theory, speculating that Hindus from India had built the mounds before moving on to Mexico.

I've also shared elsewhere the lecture by Samuel Mitchill in 1820 claiming the mounds were built by Malay. These ideas don't strike me as being much about a 'lost' superior race as they are about peoples that moved elsewhere and became the American Indians. I'm just curious which theories were most common in the decade previous to the publication of the Book of Mormon. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[cdowis]

7 hours ago, sunstoned said:

The scriptures I quoted speak for  themselves.  To deny a common reading is just silly. It is obvious the BoM narrative is about a large population that is well equipped and well versed in metallurgy. No chapel mormon would disagree with this. Mormon art supports this.  The only people who want to twist the meaning are the apologist, and that isn't working out too well.  The Maxwell institute has moved on. There is nothing to be gained defending the indefensible. In other words, no sense beating a dead horse, um, I mean tapir.  

Let's allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, shall we.

Mosiah 8  [8] And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;

Clearly IRON was considered a "precious thing".  It was mentioned immediately after gold and silver and considered an ornament in his spacious buildings. 

I find it curious that you not only quote scripture, but also chapel Mormons and Mormon art among your sources.  I am quoting ONLY the scriptures.

Edited September 19, 2016 by cdowis

[sam]

9 hours ago, cdowis said:

Let's allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, shall we.

Mosiah 8  [8] And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;

Clearly IRON was considered a "precious thing".  It was mentioned immediately after gold and silver and considered an ornament in his spacious buildings. 

I find it curious that you not only quote scripture, but also chapel Mormons and Mormon art among your sources.  I am quoting ONLY the scriptures.

Im not sure what your point is but any metals to include iron used to make swords knives breastplates tools jewelry etc would be considered precious. I have never known a sword or a breastplate to be made out wood.

[sam]

10 hours ago, cdowis said:

Let's allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, shall we.

Mosiah 8  [8] And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;

Clearly IRON was considered a "precious thing".  It was mentioned immediately after gold and silver and considered an ornament in his spacious buildings. 

I find it curious that you not only quote scripture, but also chapel Mormons and Mormon art among your sources.  I am quoting ONLY the scriptures.

To assume that breastplates or swords were made out of anything but metal is laughable.

[sam]

To make the Book of Mormon to fit in south or Central America you have to change the meaning of obvious words and places.

[waveslider]

38 minutes ago, sam said:

To assume that breastplates or swords were made out of anything but metal is laughable.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+armor&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuhtyvvpzPAhXFeD4KHVwqAxgQsAQIHQ&biw=1366&bih=659

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hawaiian+swords&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS2J7HvpzPAhUCOj4KHdHVCecQsAQIHQ&biw=1366&bih=659

These don't look to laughable to me, especially if I was being attacked by someone using these things.

[sam]

13 minutes ago, waveslider said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+armor&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuhtyvvpzPAhXFeD4KHVwqAxgQsAQIHQ&biw=1366&bih=659

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hawaiian+swords&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS2J7HvpzPAhUCOj4KHdHVCecQsAQIHQ&biw=1366&bih=659

These don't look to laughable to me, especially if I was being attacked by someone using these things.

In the context of the Book of Mormon it makes no sense. The Book of Mormons swords were cankered with rust. Last time I checked wood does not rust. This description sounds just like the observations made at Hopewell mound sites

Mosiah 8:11

11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust;  

[sam]

“The iron was considerably oxidated, and when exposed to the air, dissolved and fell into small particles of rust, leaving only the handle, which was thick, and central parts adhering together. There were four or five of these swords, if we may so call them. The handle was round and cylindrical, and encircled with ferules or rings of silver.”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 328)

[waveslider]

20 minutes ago, sam said:

In the context of the Book of Mormon it makes no sense. The Book of Mormons swords were cankered with rust. Last time I checked wood does not rust. This description sounds just like the observations made at Hopewell mound sites

Mosiah 8:11

11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust;  

I wasn't claiming it is definite one way or the other as to iron armor and swords were indeed being used, only that it isn't laughable that they could have been made of something other than metal. I don't know if you checked out that first link and then clicked on the, "native american," tab, but in the book of Mormon sense, as Indians being thought of as possibly Laminites this does fit: https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+armor&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuhtyvvpzPAhXFeD4KHVwqAxgQsAQIHQ&biw=1366&bih=659#tbm=isch&q=wooden+armor&chips=q:wooden+armor,g_3:native+american

Edited September 19, 2016 by waveslider
word omisions and mispelling

[morgan.deane]

 

1 hour ago, sam said:

To assume that breastplates or swords were made out of anything but metal is laughable.

 If you read this book, which covers the geographic area you claim to specialize in, you would know that European observers described North American arms and armor as being made of wood, shell, antlers (I really enjoyed that one,) bones, stone, cloth, stones in cloth with sand and glue, rods, skins (Elk, wolf, buffalo, deer) and even tightly woven strands of willow trees. Jones described "breast plates of rib bones" found in Pueblo sites for example. (85) The Spanish noted that wooden helmets from the northwest were "as heavy as iron." (107)  Captain Cook described a "breast plate of wood" that could stop musket balls at mid range. (108)

I've told you this before. In fact, it took me a minute but I found my response about non metal plate armor on August 20th.  I can understand not knowing a source or maybe not reassessing your opinion. That happens on occasion, and part of discussing these things is to increase in knowledge.  But you willfully ignored comments that very plainly showed that you were wrong, repeated that wrong position, and then attacked those that disagree with you "as laughable." Even though my "laughable" position is based on eye witness accounts of Native American armor. To be frank, in contrast you are relying upon your uneducated opinion.  

I was going to mention this to "sunstoned" but it works just as well here.  Relying upon a common reading is a very weak argument.  Because of my specialty in military history, and my rather comprehensive readings in primary and secondary sources, my "common" reading of the text thinks its kind of ignorant to just assume that breast plates must refer to metal. Or to assume that numbers are reported accurately. Or to assume that two verses separated by the entire book and 1000 years apart which ignores a variety of other textual evidence is a strong reading of the text.  Of course, not everybody is a military historian, but I would rather go with a military historian's common reading of military matters in the text than not.

I'm amazed at how a nuanced, historically grounded reading of the text is considered the "laughable" position compared to whatever 21st century Americans assume about it.  Its rather annoying that somehow their reading of the verse is better than the thousands of hours I've spent reading ancient accounts of warfare, looking at historical renderings of Native Americans, and generally pouring over the text to produce a sound, historical, and deep understanding of it simply because they share the lazy "common" reading of it. When they refer to that kind of reading as evidence of their position, I assume they are basing it on a very narrow and shaky foundation of knowledge usually gained from Friberg paintings or the movie Gladiator. Again, I would rather base it on rather wide and deep knowledge of historical practices.   

I'm going to keep on researching and publishing regardless of whatever you do, but you can have a much better argument that is much more likely to convince people if you don't ignore pertinent information. (Not to mention, its less likely to annoy the people you're already insulting.)  Good luck Sam.     

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by morgan.deane

[sam]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+armor&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuhtyvvpzPAhXFeD4KHVwqAxgQsAQIHQ&biw=1366&bih=659

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hawaiian+swords&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS2J7HvpzPAhUCOj4KHdHVCecQsAQIHQ&biw=1366&bih=659

These don't look to laughable to me, especially if I was being attacked by someone using these things.

I was just going by what the Book of Mormon states and their advanced metallurgy in making iron swords. 

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, sam said:

Im not sure what your point is but any metals to include iron used to make swords knives breastplates tools jewelry etc would be considered precious. I have never known a sword or a breastplate to be made out wood.

The point was that Nephi made "many" steel swords, implying that there was an abundance of iron, but they probably were using meteoric iron and by the time of Mosiah, it was scarce.

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, sam said:

In the context of the Book of Mormon it makes no sense. The Book of Mormons swords were cankered with rust. Last time I checked wood does not rust. This description sounds just like the observations made at Hopewell mound sites

Mosiah 8:11

11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust;  

But if you carefully read the Book of Mormon, these were Jaredite swords, not Nephite.

[sam]

52 minutes ago, cdowis said:

But if you carefully read the Book of Mormon, these were Jaredite swords, not Nephite.

The Nephites make no distinction between Jaredite and Nephite swords. The Nephites knew exactly what rust was in how they described the blades of the iron swords. The Nephites had advanced metallurgy were a advanced society. To say they knew and used all this technology only to make swords of wood defies all common sense.  

[cdowis]

Let me repeat

 

You said ==  The Book of Mormons swords were cankered with rust

I said == These were Jaredite swords.

There are NO "Book of Mormon swords".  There are Nephite swords, and  there are Jaredite swords.  If that is incomprehensible to you, then this is the end of our discussion.  The point here is that a sword can use different materials for its cutting blade.  It is clear that iron was scarce in the time of Mosiah, so it is likely they did not use steel edges on their "many swords" at that time.

You are just continuing your silliness when you said that breastplates can ONLY be made of metal.