Hopewell (Nephite) Iron axes

[sam]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Would you quote one president or apostle in the history of the LDS Church that believes the Holy Spirit told him that
the Hopewells are Nephites?

Thanks,
Jim

Holy cow that's not what I'm saying. The church does promote any particular bom geography model or bom physical evidence.

the Holy Spirit testifies of the Book of Mormon being a second witness of Christ mission and witness to the nephite and lamanite people.

as far as the Hopewell being the Nephites is my opinion. It has nothing to do with the mission of the church.

 

 

[Sevenbak]

On 9/16/2016 at 9:26 AM, sam said:

http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/hopewell-use-of-meteoritic-iron/

Here's another.  Ohio Journal of Science: Volume 61, Issue 6 (November, 196

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/4817/V61N06_341.p?sequence=1

 

snip...

 

The following trait list, based on published data and museum collections, gives

the range of meteoric-iron objects found. In many instances more than one such

object was found at any given site; this is especially true of earspools which usually

occur in pairs.

1. Copper earspools, one outer plate of which is plated with meteoric iron.

(Hopewell, Marriott 1).

2.

Copper earspools, one side of which is covered with silver, the other with

copper, while the body is made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

3.

Copper earspools, both outer plates of which are covered with meteoric-iron

overlay. (Hopewell, Harness, Fort Ancient, Turner, Porter).

4.

Earspools made entirely of meteoric iron. (Porter, Turner).

5.

Awls made of meteoric iron. (Seip 1, Hopewell).

6. Cylindrical beads of rolled meteoric-iron sheeting. (Seip 1, Turner,

Mound City).

7.

Beads made of small marine shells covered with copper sheeting which

in turn is covered with meteoric iron. (Mound City).

8. Hemispherical clay, wood, or sandstone buttons covered with meteoric-iron

sheeting. (Hopewell, Seip 1, Mound City).

9. Buttons consisting of small hemispheres covered with meteoric iron and

set in sheet-copper settings. (Harness).

10.

So-called "ceremonial" solid, rounded cones of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

11.

Fragments of meteoric-iron sheeting suggestive of plain headdresses

similar to the classic Hopewell copper "helmets." (Turner, Hopewell).

12.

Triple conjoined tubes or pan-pipes made of meteoric iron. (Turner).

13.

Axe made of meteoric iron. (Harness).

14.

Adze made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

15.

Small straight-sided chisel made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

16.

Curved chisels of meteoric iron imitating beaver incisors in shape.

(Hopewell).

17.

Small meteoric-iron drill stuck in a pearl bead which it was used to

perforate. (Hopewell).

18.

Small boat-shaped hollow objects of meteoric iron. (Seip 1).

19.

Small disc-shaped sheets of meteoric iron. (Harness).

20.

Slate cone plated with meteoric-iron foil. (Tremper).

21.

Human ulna banded and partly covered with meteoric-iron sheeting.

(Hopewell).

22.

Ball of meteoric iron set into hollowed bear canine tooth. (Seip 2).

23.

"Nuggets" of meteoric iron. (Turner, Campbell, Hopewell, Marietta).

In addition to these well-documented examples of Ohio Hopewell meteoric

iron, a number of less reliable cases should briefly be dealt with. In a recent letter

to me, Gregory Perino of the Gilcrease Foundation states that ". . . we bought a

group of Ohio copper earspools from Dr. Young of Nashville, and a few were

covered with iron." (Perino correspondence, August 10, 1961).

Atwater (1820) refers to finds of iron from such well-known Hopewell sites as

Marietta and Circleville. Putnam (1883) considered these early reports untrust-

worthy. While in the case of Marietta there is independent evidence for meteoric

iron, the Circleville find remains uncertain. Atwater states that lying on a

"mirrour" of mica there was found a ". . . plate of iron, which had become an

oxyde; but before it was disturbed by the spade, resembled a plate of cast iron."

(Atwater, 1820: 178). In addition he refers to a silver-banded antler sleeve which

he called a knife or sword handle. While he does not claim to have found an iron

blade he does state that ". . . an oxyde remained of similar shape and size."

Whatever the meaning of these reports are, it should be stressed that Atwater

may actually have found remains of meteoric iron at Circleville.

[sam]

5 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Here's another.  Ohio Journal of Science: Volume 61, Issue 6 (November, 196

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/4817/V61N06_341.p?sequence=1

 

snip...

 

The following trait list, based on published data and museum collections, gives

the range of meteoric-iron objects found. In many instances more than one such

object was found at any given site; this is especially true of earspools which usually

occur in pairs.

1. Copper earspools, one outer plate of which is plated with meteoric iron.

(Hopewell, Marriott 1).

2.

Copper earspools, one side of which is covered with silver, the other with

copper, while the body is made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

3.

Copper earspools, both outer plates of which are covered with meteoric-iron

overlay. (Hopewell, Harness, Fort Ancient, Turner, Porter).

4.

Earspools made entirely of meteoric iron. (Porter, Turner).

5.

Awls made of meteoric iron. (Seip 1, Hopewell).

6. Cylindrical beads of rolled meteoric-iron sheeting. (Seip 1, Turner,

Mound City).

7.

Beads made of small marine shells covered with copper sheeting which

in turn is covered with meteoric iron. (Mound City).

8. Hemispherical clay, wood, or sandstone buttons covered with meteoric-iron

sheeting. (Hopewell, Seip 1, Mound City).

9. Buttons consisting of small hemispheres covered with meteoric iron and

set in sheet-copper settings. (Harness).

10.

So-called "ceremonial" solid, rounded cones of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

11.

Fragments of meteoric-iron sheeting suggestive of plain headdresses

similar to the classic Hopewell copper "helmets." (Turner, Hopewell).

12.

Triple conjoined tubes or pan-pipes made of meteoric iron. (Turner).

13.

Axe made of meteoric iron. (Harness).

14.

Adze made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

15.

Small straight-sided chisel made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

16.

Curved chisels of meteoric iron imitating beaver incisors in shape.

(Hopewell).

17.

Small meteoric-iron drill stuck in a pearl bead which it was used to

perforate. (Hopewell).

18.

Small boat-shaped hollow objects of meteoric iron. (Seip 1).

19.

Small disc-shaped sheets of meteoric iron. (Harness).

20.

Slate cone plated with meteoric-iron foil. (Tremper).

21.

Human ulna banded and partly covered with meteoric-iron sheeting.

(Hopewell).

22.

Ball of meteoric iron set into hollowed bear canine tooth. (Seip 2).

23.

"Nuggets" of meteoric iron. (Turner, Campbell, Hopewell, Marietta).

In addition to these well-documented examples of Ohio Hopewell meteoric

iron, a number of less reliable cases should briefly be dealt with. In a recent letter

to me, Gregory Perino of the Gilcrease Foundation states that ". . . we bought a

group of Ohio copper earspools from Dr. Young of Nashville, and a few were

covered with iron." (Perino correspondence, August 10, 1961).

Atwater (1820) refers to finds of iron from such well-known Hopewell sites as

Marietta and Circleville. Putnam (1883) considered these early reports untrust-

worthy. While in the case of Marietta there is independent evidence for meteoric

iron, the Circleville find remains uncertain. Atwater states that lying on a

"mirrour" of mica there was found a ". . . plate of iron, which had become an

oxyde; but before it was disturbed by the spade, resembled a plate of cast iron."

(Atwater, 1820: 178). In addition he refers to a silver-banded antler sleeve which

he called a knife or sword handle. While he does not claim to have found an iron

blade he does state that ". . . an oxyde remained of similar shape and size."

Whatever the meaning of these reports are, it should be stressed that Atwater

may actually have found remains of meteoric iron at Circleville.

Ya it's pretty obvious the Hopewell based on artifacts location and timeline are Nephites.

[sam]

7 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Here's another.  Ohio Journal of Science: Volume 61, Issue 6 (November, 196

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/4817/V61N06_341.p?sequence=1

 

snip...

 

The following trait list, based on published data and museum collections, gives

the range of meteoric-iron objects found. In many instances more than one such

object was found at any given site; this is especially true of earspools which usually

occur in pairs.

1. Copper earspools, one outer plate of which is plated with meteoric iron.

(Hopewell, Marriott 1).

2.

Copper earspools, one side of which is covered with silver, the other with

copper, while the body is made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

3.

Copper earspools, both outer plates of which are covered with meteoric-iron

overlay. (Hopewell, Harness, Fort Ancient, Turner, Porter).

4.

Earspools made entirely of meteoric iron. (Porter, Turner).

5.

Awls made of meteoric iron. (Seip 1, Hopewell).

6. Cylindrical beads of rolled meteoric-iron sheeting. (Seip 1, Turner,

Mound City).

7.

Beads made of small marine shells covered with copper sheeting which

in turn is covered with meteoric iron. (Mound City).

8. Hemispherical clay, wood, or sandstone buttons covered with meteoric-iron

sheeting. (Hopewell, Seip 1, Mound City).

9. Buttons consisting of small hemispheres covered with meteoric iron and

set in sheet-copper settings. (Harness).

10.

So-called "ceremonial" solid, rounded cones of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

11.

Fragments of meteoric-iron sheeting suggestive of plain headdresses

similar to the classic Hopewell copper "helmets." (Turner, Hopewell).

12.

Triple conjoined tubes or pan-pipes made of meteoric iron. (Turner).

13.

Axe made of meteoric iron. (Harness).

14.

Adze made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

15.

Small straight-sided chisel made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

16.

Curved chisels of meteoric iron imitating beaver incisors in shape.

(Hopewell).

17.

Small meteoric-iron drill stuck in a pearl bead which it was used to

perforate. (Hopewell).

18.

Small boat-shaped hollow objects of meteoric iron. (Seip 1).

19.

Small disc-shaped sheets of meteoric iron. (Harness).

20.

Slate cone plated with meteoric-iron foil. (Tremper).

21.

Human ulna banded and partly covered with meteoric-iron sheeting.

(Hopewell).

22.

Ball of meteoric iron set into hollowed bear canine tooth. (Seip 2).

23.

"Nuggets" of meteoric iron. (Turner, Campbell, Hopewell, Marietta).

In addition to these well-documented examples of Ohio Hopewell meteoric

iron, a number of less reliable cases should briefly be dealt with. In a recent letter

to me, Gregory Perino of the Gilcrease Foundation states that ". . . we bought a

group of Ohio copper earspools from Dr. Young of Nashville, and a few were

covered with iron." (Perino correspondence, August 10, 1961).

Atwater (1820) refers to finds of iron from such well-known Hopewell sites as

Marietta and Circleville. Putnam (1883) considered these early reports untrust-

worthy. While in the case of Marietta there is independent evidence for meteoric

iron, the Circleville find remains uncertain. Atwater states that lying on a

"mirrour" of mica there was found a ". . . plate of iron, which had become an

oxyde; but before it was disturbed by the spade, resembled a plate of cast iron."

(Atwater, 1820: 178). In addition he refers to a silver-banded antler sleeve which

he called a knife or sword handle. While he does not claim to have found an iron

blade he does state that ". . . an oxyde remained of similar shape and size."

Whatever the meaning of these reports are, it should be stressed that Atwater

may actually have found remains of meteoric iron at Circleville.

Smithsonian researchers and settlers found iron swords in Hopewell mounds all over the place. Most were in a state of corrosion that rust and the handle was all that was left.

[Five Solas]

Nephites are a lie. 

--Uncle Dale

If I lived in Utah, I might turn that into a bumper sticker.  But in Seattle--I'd just draw a lot of blank stares...

;0)

--Erik

[Atheist Mormon]

On 9/16/2016 at 10:47 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

To assign Hopewell use of nonsmelted, meteoric iron to the fictional Nephites is offensive.  The Hopewell were an indigenous American people fully capable of coming up with their own technological advances wholly free of the influences of your claimed Book of Mormon characters. To deprive them of the credit for their own advances, which took place free from the influences of any European or middle eastern for that matter, is disrespectful to this great ancient people.

I don't agree about offensive part. These people did not call themselves Hopewell for sure. 

[The Nehor]

On 9/16/2016 at 10:47 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

To assign Hopewell use of nonsmelted, meteoric iron to the fictional Nephites is offensive.  The Hopewell were an indigenous American people fully capable of coming up with their own technological advances wholly free of the influences of your claimed Book of Mormon characters. To deprive them of the credit for their own advances, which took place free from the influences of any European or middle eastern for that matter, is disrespectful to this great ancient people.

What if I told you the Hopwells were a bunch of jerks? Would you still feel the need to take offense on their behalf so you could beat on some deluded person with almost-certainly false attempts to squeeze the Book of Mormon into a specific culture?

[The Nehor]

The Nephites make first contact with the Hopewells to give them smelting technology:

 

 

[sunstoned]

12 hours ago, sam said:

Smithsonian researchers and settlers found iron swords in Hopewell mounds all over the place. Most were in a state of corrosion that rust and the handle was all that was left.

This is very interesting.  Do you have a credible reference for this?

[Hagoth]

14 hours ago, sam said:

Smithsonian researchers and settlers found iron swords in Hopewell mounds all over the place. Most were in a state of corrosion that rust and the handle was all that was left.

Yes, please give us your source on this, since this would be an archaeological game changer, I would love to know where these sword handles are today so I can go see them. Also, please provide a reference to a modern evaluation of them, so we can know they aren't: a) rumor, b) something that was entirely misunderstood, or c) European weapons placed in not-so-ancient burials. Since they were found "all over the place" there must be many examples of them that we can look at.

[Sevenbak]

18 hours ago, theplains said:

Would you quote one president or apostle in the history of the LDS Church that believes the Holy Spirit told him that
the Hopewells are Nephites?

Thanks,
Jim

You mean like Joseph receiving revelation about Zelph and the battles between the Nephties and Lamanites, or the reference a few days earlier by Levi Hancock about Joseph telling them the spirits associated with the mounds were evil and would destroy them if they could as Zion's Camp passed by?    Since all revelation works by the Holy Spirit, I would imagine that falls into the category you are asking for.

[Sevenbak]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

This is very interesting.  Do you have a credible reference for this?

Warren King Morrehead worked for the Smithsonian, and was known in his time as the "Dean of American Archeology".  Here is his report with both iron celts and iron breastplates, many dozen, coming out of a single mound in one of his digs.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7DNLDlbQXaYC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq="copper+and+iron+celts"+moorehead&source=bl&ots=9-TEcbXhlG&sig=2w7AT_0tucpimewWVlU40aqE8jM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5_aLhkZnPAhVBwYMKHR22DOgQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q="copper and iron celts" moorehead&f=false

Edited September 18, 2016 by Sevenbak

[sam]

3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

This is very interesting.  Do you have a credible reference for this?

“In digging the Louisville canal, nineteen feet below the surface, with the coals of the last domestic fire upon them, medals of copper and silver, swords and other implements of iron. Mr. Flint assures us that he has seen these strange ancient swords.”
(Conant, pg. 111, 1879)

(Items found in Hopewell Indian Ruins)

“A few miles from the town of Columbia, in Maury county, in West Tennessee, and on Duck river, are a number of fortifications, … also, several fragments of earthen ware, and a sword about two feet long, differing from any in use since the white people visited the country, apparently once highly polished, but now much eaten with rust. Those who buried these articles there, could fashion the sword, and could make bricks, and use them by the masonic art.”
(Haywood 1823, pg. 179)

(The sword at this site was found in the state of New York by Smithsonian Researchers)

“Engravings of the silver-plated discs and also of the embossed silver plate sup-posed by Dr. Hildreth to have been a sword ornament, are herewith presented. These articles have been critically examined, and it is beyond doubt that the copper “bosses” are absolutely plated, not simply overlaid, with silver. Between the copper and the silver exists a connection, such as, it seems to me, could only be produced by heat…. Again, if Dr. Hildreth is not mistaken, oxydized iron, or steel, was also discovered in connection with the above remains ; from which also follows, as a necessity upon the previous assumption, the extraordinary conclusion that the mound-builders were acquainted with the use of iron,”
(Squier, pg. 87)

(Items found in Hopewell Indian Ruins)

“On the back side, opposite the depressed portion, is a copper rivet or nail, around which are two separate plates, by which they were fastened to the leather. Two small pieces of the leather were found lying between the holes of one of the bosses. They resemble the skin of an old mummy. The plates of copper are nearly reduced to rust. Around the rivet of one of them is a quantity of flax or hemp in a tolerable state of preservation. Near the side of the human body was a plate of silver, the upper part of a sword scabbard, six inches long, two wide, weighing one ounce. Three longitudinal ridges were on it, which perhaps corresponded with the edges or ridges of the sword.”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 347)

(An iron sword was found in a North Carolina mound. Due to this item Cryus Thomas who believed that the mounds were built after the Europeans arrived. We know the Hopewell mounds were built before Columbus)

 

“The iron implements which are alluded to in the above-mentioned articles also in Science, as found in a North Carolina mound. “

(Cyrus Thomas 1889 pg. 31)

(Items found in Hopewell Indian Ruins)

“The iron was considerably oxidated, and when exposed to the air, dissolved and fell into small particles of rust, leaving only the handle, which was thick, and central parts adhering together. There were four or five of these swords, if we may so call them. The handle was round and cylindrical, and encircled with ferules or rings of silver.”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 328)

(Items found in Hopewell Indian Ruins)

“The aborigines had some very well manufactured swords and knives of iron, and possibly of steel.”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 349)

[sam]

13 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I don't agree about offensive part. These people did not call themselves Hopewell for sure. 

The name Hopewell comes from the name of the farmer that the first archeological site that this civilization was found on.

[Hagoth]

Nothing from the this or the previous century? We have established the existence of meteoric iron burial goods, but the interpretation of anything as swords here seems subjective. Please provide something from within the last century and tell me who is studying these objects and what they are saying about them.

[Hagoth]

10 hours ago, sam said:

Due to this item Cryus Thomas who believed that the mounds were built after the Europeans arrived. We know the Hopewell mounds were built before Columbus)

 

I think we need to clear the air a bit on this one, since you keep dropping Thomas' name. It is true that Thomas believed this UNTIL he actually did the archaeology.  In fact Thomas is the single most important figure in dispelling the common racist myth that a superior white civilization had created the mounds and artifacts and had been exterminated by the Indians. In 1972 Thomas was given charge of the first serious archaeological investigation in the United States, funded by the federal government under the auspices of John Wesley Powell who was the director of the US Geologic survey at the time.

Thomas' mission was to get to the bottom of the origins of the mounds once and for all. And that is what he did. After a 5-year systematic examination of over 2000 mound sites excavated by his teams, Thomas generated a 700 page report in 1879 that demonstrated conclusively that the Native people were indeed the creators of the mounds and artifacts, and that there was a continuous occupation back to very ancient times, with no interruption by non-native outsiders.

This is why, Sam, you should never use any sources from before 1879, and no sources that aren't produced by systematic, scientific survey and analysis. The newer the better. Before Thomas' report the only people doing "archaeology" were hobbyists trying to prove their biased expectations, which were that the Indians were degenerate savages incapable of creating the mounds and artifacts, and who must have killed off the superior white people who really did those things. Who those superior people were varied wildly (Israelites, Welch, Norsemen, Atlanteans, Masonic knights,..) but they all  shared a common racist theme. That, of course, made it much more palatable to remove those unworthy savage interlopers from the promised land and take possession of it. Manifest destiny and all that. 

This is why you find validation for your theories in these pre-scientific testimonies. The book of Mormon was written in an environment where this was the commonly accepted (and highly motivated) myth. The BoM author was only retelling another version of the story that pretty much everyone already believed, in one form or another. Modern Mormons seem to think the Book of Mormon gives some kind of exciting new telling of the history of the Americas, when in fact it just sticks to the common misconception of the time. That is why people keep going off the rails on Solomon Spaulding and Ethan Smith, assuming that the broad similarities must be due to plagiarism. There is absolutely no reason to suppose a correlation because all three were just riffing on the same theme that was the common misunderstanding of their time.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Hagoth

[sam]

1 hour ago, Hagoth said:

I think we need to clear the air a bit on this one, since you keep dropping Thomas' name. It is true that Thomas believed this UNTIL he actually did the archaeology.  In fact Thomas is the single most important figure in dispelling the common racist myth that a superior white civilization had created the mounds and artifacts and had been exterminated by the Indians. In 1972 Thomas was given charge of the first serious archaeological investigation in the United States, funded by the federal government under the auspices of John Wesley Powell who was the director of the US Geologic survey at the time.

Thomas' mission was to get to the bottom of the origins of the mounds once and for all. And that is what he did. After a 5-year systematic examination of over 2000 mound sites excavated by his teams, Thomas generated a 700 page report in 1879 that demonstrated conclusively that the Native people were indeed the creators of the mounds and artifacts, and that there was a continuous occupation back to very ancient times, with no interruption by non-native outsiders.

This is why, Sam, you never use any sources from before 1879, and no sources that aren't produced by systematic, scientific survey and analysis. The newer the better. Before Thomas' report the only people doing "archaeology" were hobbyists trying to prove their biased expectations, which were that the Indians were degenerate savages incapable of creating the mounds and artifacts, and who must have killed off the superior white people who really did those things. Who those superior people were varied wildly (Israelites, Welch, Norsemen, Atlanteans, Masonic knights,..) but they all  shared a common racist theme. That, of course, made it much more palatable to remove those unworthy savage interlopers from the promised land and take possession of it. Manifest destiny and all that. 

This is why you find validation for your theories in these pre-scientific testimonies. The book of Mormon was written in an environment where this was the commonly accepted (and highly motivated) myth. The BoM author was only retelling another version of the story that pretty much everyone already believed, in one form or another. Modern Mormons seem to think the Book of Mormon gives some kind of exciting new telling of the history of the Americas, when in fact it just sticks to the common misconception of the time. That is why people keep going off the rails on Solomon Spaulding and Ethan Smith, assuming that the broad similarities must be due to plagiarism. There is absolutely no reason to suppose a correlation because all three were just riffing on the same theme that was the common misunderstanding of their time.

Hagoth its a proven fact that a Native American founding dna marker is Caucasian. Also having a native American chief ride a tapir is not offensive at all. The rarity of this dna marker is good evidence that this dna marker was wiped out as described in the Book of Mormon and native American tradition.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-extermination-of-white-race-of.html

“In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian population”
(The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 9707616292
“Overall, the sequence data and phylogenetic analysis suggest that the Native American and the European haplogroup X mtDNAs share a common maternal ancestor”
“The 14 Caucasian-European haplogroup X samples (designated “CE1”–“CE14”) included 2 Caucasians of European ancestry”
(MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America
Michael D. Brown,1 Seyed H. Hosseini,1 Antonio Torroni,2 Hans-Ju¨rgenBandelt,3 Jon C. Allen,1 Theodore G. Schurr,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Fulvio Cruciani,2 and Douglas C. Wallace1)
“Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture.”
(The Presence of Mitochondrial haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
Am. J. Hum. Genet. 69:237–241, 2001)

“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.””
(MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
(MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of “Caucasian” alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of -30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)

[Hagoth]

This just in (please look at it):

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v523/n7561/fig_tab/nature14625_SF1.html

 

Also, Kennewick's "caucasoid" skull morphology (8500ya), although dissimilar to modern Native Americans, is very similar to the most ancient known inhabitants of the New World (e.g. Eva of Naharon - 13,600ya and several others). But his DNA proves that he was also ancestral to modern North American Indians.

 

If you can prove to me that haplogroup X was not in the New World before Jaradites/Lehites I'm all ears, but you'll have to square it with the evidence that convinced all of the scientists listed on that Nature announcement from just last year.

 

 

btw, your sciencedirect.com link doesn't work. Maybe they pulled it in light of the newer evidence.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Hagoth

[sunstoned]

On 9/17/2016 at 4:56 PM, Sevenbak said:

Here's another.  Ohio Journal of Science: Volume 61, Issue 6 (November, 196

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/4817/V61N06_341.p?sequence=1

 

snip...

 

The following trait list, based on published data and museum collections, gives

the range of meteoric-iron objects found. In many instances more than one such

object was found at any given site; this is especially true of earspools which usually

occur in pairs.

1. Copper earspools, one outer plate of which is plated with meteoric iron.

(Hopewell, Marriott 1).

2.

Copper earspools, one side of which is covered with silver, the other with

copper, while the body is made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

3.

Copper earspools, both outer plates of which are covered with meteoric-iron

overlay. (Hopewell, Harness, Fort Ancient, Turner, Porter).

4.

Earspools made entirely of meteoric iron. (Porter, Turner).

5.

Awls made of meteoric iron. (Seip 1, Hopewell).

6. Cylindrical beads of rolled meteoric-iron sheeting. (Seip 1, Turner,

Mound City).

7.

Beads made of small marine shells covered with copper sheeting which

in turn is covered with meteoric iron. (Mound City).

8. Hemispherical clay, wood, or sandstone buttons covered with meteoric-iron

sheeting. (Hopewell, Seip 1, Mound City).

9. Buttons consisting of small hemispheres covered with meteoric iron and

set in sheet-copper settings. (Harness).

10.

So-called "ceremonial" solid, rounded cones of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

11.

Fragments of meteoric-iron sheeting suggestive of plain headdresses

similar to the classic Hopewell copper "helmets." (Turner, Hopewell).

12.

Triple conjoined tubes or pan-pipes made of meteoric iron. (Turner).

13.

Axe made of meteoric iron. (Harness).

14.

Adze made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

15.

Small straight-sided chisel made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

16.

Curved chisels of meteoric iron imitating beaver incisors in shape.

(Hopewell).

17.

Small meteoric-iron drill stuck in a pearl bead which it was used to

perforate. (Hopewell).

18.

Small boat-shaped hollow objects of meteoric iron. (Seip 1).

19.

Small disc-shaped sheets of meteoric iron. (Harness).

20.

Slate cone plated with meteoric-iron foil. (Tremper).

21.

Human ulna banded and partly covered with meteoric-iron sheeting.

(Hopewell).

22.

Ball of meteoric iron set into hollowed bear canine tooth. (Seip 2).

23.

"Nuggets" of meteoric iron. (Turner, Campbell, Hopewell, Marietta).

In addition to these well-documented examples of Ohio Hopewell meteoric

iron, a number of less reliable cases should briefly be dealt with. In a recent letter

to me, Gregory Perino of the Gilcrease Foundation states that ". . . we bought a

group of Ohio copper earspools from Dr. Young of Nashville, and a few were

covered with iron." (Perino correspondence, August 10, 1961).

Atwater (1820) refers to finds of iron from such well-known Hopewell sites as

Marietta and Circleville. Putnam (1883) considered these early reports untrust-

worthy. While in the case of Marietta there is independent evidence for meteoric

iron, the Circleville find remains uncertain. Atwater states that lying on a

"mirrour" of mica there was found a ". . . plate of iron, which had become an

oxyde; but before it was disturbed by the spade, resembled a plate of cast iron."

(Atwater, 1820: 178). In addition he refers to a silver-banded antler sleeve which

he called a knife or sword handle. While he does not claim to have found an iron

blade he does state that ". . . an oxyde remained of similar shape and size."

Whatever the meaning of these reports are, it should be stressed that Atwater

may actually have found remains of meteoric iron at Circleville.

This is all well and good and very interesting.  But a few trinkets pounded out of meteor iron has no correlation with the BoM narrative of million men iron clad armies welding steel swords and shields and helmets.  Not even close.  

Edited September 19, 2016 by sunstoned

[Sevenbak]

50 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

This is all well and good and very interesting.  But a few trinkets pounded out of meteor iron has no correlation with the BoM narrative of million men iron clad armies welding steel swords and shields and helmets.  Not even close.  

Really?  You'll have to tell me in the text where it says that!   Methinks someone has been watching a little too much Lord of the Rings. I freely admit the Orc's had steel clad armies with steel shields and steel helmets.     But the Nephites?

Text please...  Please don't confuse "You shall not pass!" with "It came to pass."  ;-)

To your credit though, the Hopewell digs have produced a myriad of copper headplates, breastplates, etc.  And tons and tons of copper weapons.  Here's a bunch of examples.  http://copperculture.homestead.com/moreartifacts.html

Edited September 19, 2016 by Sevenbak

[sunstoned]

21 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Really?  You'll have to tell me in the text where it says that!   Methinks someone has been watching a little too much Lord of the Rings. I freely admit the Orc's had steel clad armies with steel shields and steel helmets.     But the Nephites?

Text please...  Please don't confuse "You shall not pass!" with "It came to pass."  ;-)

To your credit though, the Hopewell digs have produced a myriad of copper headplates, breastplates, etc.  And tons and tons of copper weapons.  Here's a bunch of examples.  http://copperculture.homestead.com/moreartifacts.html

Here a dialog from Mormon chapter 10.  This is just one battle. I will let you count how many leaders fell with their "ten thousand".  

 

 10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

 11 And when they had gone through and hewn down allmy people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

 12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

 13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

 14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

 15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, evenall my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth

Edited September 19, 2016 by sunstoned

[sunstoned]

Maybe we should turn to the text of the BoM.  Here Nephi explains in clear language what the state of their metallurgy technology was:

2 Nephi 5:14-15

:And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords...And I did teach my people to...work in all manner of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel" 

 

 

[Sevenbak]

You still haven't answered the question.  Where is the steel armor, headplates, breastplates, etc. in the text?

Let me include verse 9, that you left out...

9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.

Nowhere does it even say the Nephite swords were steel, and they used lots of other methods for inflicting death.  Since we know that meteoric iron was used on occasion by the Hopewell culture, as evidenced by artifacts, we also know it was rare.  Ironically, iron ornaments ARE mentioned in the BoM text.   I find it pretty incredible that iron sheeting and iron plating was indeed used by the Hopewell for decorative purposes.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Sevenbak

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

This is all well and good and very interesting.  But a few trinkets pounded out of meteor iron has no correlation with the BoM narrative of million men iron clad armies welding steel swords and shields and helmets.  Not even close.  

For the Battle of Thermopylae 2500 years ago, ancient sources said the invading Persian army was 1 million strong.

Yet...it would be quite unusual to find confirming physical evidence of such on the battlefield centuries later.

Consider this discussion, which includes comments from an archaeologist: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/14tfbt/has_any_archaeological_evidence_been_found_of_the/

As to meteoric iron, based on its origin, I would venture that it withstands rusting over the centuries considerably better than forged iron. If so, combined with such things as the discussion linked to above, it would not be too surprising that meteoric iron is largely the variety we're left with today.

Edited September 19, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

11 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

...As to meteoric iron, based on its origin, I would venture that it withstands rusting over the centuries considerably better than forged iron. If so, combined with such things as the discussion linked to above, it would not be too surprising that meteoric iron is largely the variety we're left with today.

Yep...that's exactly the case. Because of the different makeup of *meteoric* iron, it is expected that such would more likely survive the passage of time, as it was somewhat less prone to rust:

" Concurrent with the advent of alphabetic characters in the Iron Age, humans became aware of the metal iron. In earlier ages, iron's qualities, in contrast to those of bronze, were not generally understood though. Iron artifacts, composed of meteoric iron, have the chemical composition containing up to 40% nickel. As this source of this iron is extremely rare and fortuitous, little development of smithing skills peculiar to iron can be assumed to have occurred. That we still possess any such artifacts of meteoric iron may be ascribed to the vagaries of climate, and the increased corrosion-resistance conferred on iron by the presence of nickel. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmith#Blacksmith.27s_striker