Does the LDS Church focus too much on sexual sins?

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree, but i sometimes struggle with how this issue is treated at church.  I've known people (in my ward) who were excommunicated for fornication who were not endowed (but was repentant in one case) or not even active (and therefore not repentant in another case).  Young people in their late teens or very early 20s who hadn't been to church in years.

And then i know of a person who was endowed, went to the temple frequently, served in a bishopric, was married, who had an affair for years and also slept with other women on the side and wasn't excommunicated but only disfellowshipped.

I don't want to get into whether those situations were appropriate discipline or not (because i truly feel i can't judge that) but what is confusing to me is how arbitrary it sometimes seems (and i admit that how it seems on the outside may not be how it actually is behind closed doors).

I struggle with that too. I had a Branch President who molested his daughter and his wife told their Bishop but got "oh, he wouldn't do that he's a good man" later he was my BP and even later than that he was in a Temple Presidency. He escaped church discipline and legal involvement. He was what you'd call smooth, my mom called him "greasy" but he's dead now so I guess God has to deal with him now, as we know the Mills of the God's exceedingly slow but exceedingly fine. In my pre-mission he was my BP and there was a guy who got home in May from his mission and we has AP. He was instantly called to be the EQ Pres. and I was his counselour as was another 18yr old. From May to about Oct. ish. he came to church about 6 times, we basically had to run the show. Anyways that guy got a recent convert pregnant and nothing happened to either of them. Her I could see but him? Apparently he was good enough to continue on as EQ Pres. but not good enough to get church discipline, I don't get that. The other counselour and I were like  feeling guilty and confessing all kinds of nonsense and that was worse then a pregnancy? For me it's stuff like this I only go to Bishops for stuff if it affects my standing in the Church.

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I struggle with that too. I had a Branch President who molested his daughter and his wife told their Bishop but got "oh, he wouldn't do that he's a good man" later he was my BP and even later than that he was in a Temple Presidency. He escaped church discipline and legal involvement. He was what you'd call smooth, my mom called him "greasy" but he's dead now so I guess God has to deal with him now, as we know the Mills of the God's exceedingly slow but exceedingly fine. In my pre-mission he was my BP and there was a guy who got home in May from his mission and we has AP. He was instantly called to be the EQ Pres. and I was his counselour as was another 18yr old. From May to about Oct. ish. he came to church about 6 times, we basically had to run the show. Anyways that guy got a recent convert pregnant and nothing happened to either of them. Her I could see but him? Apparently he was good enough to continue on as EQ Pres. but not good enough to get church discipline, I don't get that. The other counselour and I were like  feeling guilty and confessing all kinds of nonsense and that was worse then a pregnancy? For me it's stuff like this I only go to Bishops for stuff if it affects my standing in the Church.

The simple answer to all of the above is that these brethren didn't commit the sins that you are accusing them of. 

Either that or the church you're involved with in Canada is completely different than elsewhere.

[ksfisher]

27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree, but i sometimes struggle with how this issue is treated at church.  I've known people (in my ward) who were excommunicated for fornication who were not endowed (but was repentant in one case) or not even active (and therefore not repentant in another case).  Young people in their late teens or very early 20s who hadn't been to church in years.

And then i know of a person who was endowed, went to the temple frequently, served in a bishopric, was married, who had an affair for years and also slept with other women on the side and wasn't excommunicated but only disfellowshipped.

I don't want to get into whether those situations were appropriate discipline or not (because i truly feel i can't judge that) but what is confusing to me is how arbitrary it sometimes seems (and i admit that how it seems on the outside may not be how it actually is behind closed doors).

Church discipline is completely based on the needs of the individual sinner and their willingness to repent.  I've been involved in councils where the council reached different conclusions even though the individuals had committed the same sin.  Many factors can enter into these decisions, but in all cases the Spirit is followed when determining the path the sinner needs to take to fully repent. 

[HappyJackWagon]

45 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The simple answer to all of the above is that these brethren didn't commit the sins that you are accusing them of. 

Either that or the church you're involved with in Canada is completely different than elsewhere.

While it may be easier to wipe away uncomfortable truths as being a Canadian problem, I think it's more accurate to accept that crazy shenanigans, Bishop Roulette, and unjust discipline (or lack thereof) happen constantly around the world, including the US and even Utah. 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

While it may be easier to wipe away uncomfortable truths as being a Canadian problem, I think it's more accurate to accept that crazy shenanigans, Bishop Roulette, and unjust discipline (or lack thereof) happen constantly around the world, including the US and even Utah. 

No trying to wipe anything away, it just seems odd that laws were being broken, both those of God and of man, and no one was doing anything about it.  Not to bash Duncan, but unless he was a witness to any of this then what he is passing on is hearsay. 

[BlueDreams]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

Should the sin next to murder really be the sin next to murder?

Without going into details, let's understand that we are talking about relationships between consenting parties who are mature enough to handle such relationships. I would place rape (in all its forms) as a more serious sin than any sexual sin between consenting mature people.

What about the con-man who swindles trusting people out of their money (some losing their life savings)?

What about the person who spreads false information about somebody, and that person's reputation is ruined?

What about the bully who physically or emotionally abuses another person?

In fairness, I remember being taught to be honest, and to be nice to people, but it seemed to me that sexual sins had a greater focus than all the others.

I think that verse is heavily misapplied and we have a serious problem with overgeneralizing all forms of sexual sins as equal in weight and effect. When it's not. I think not going into details is what's perpetuating the problem and maintaining unnecessary shame. Not all sexual sins is second to murder... It is a shortened description of what the verses actually say (alma 39: 2-9).

He has several problems that his father has concerns about:

1. he began boasting in his own wisdom and strength

2. he forsook the ministry

3. he forsook it to go after a harlot who had "led away the hearts of many"

4. he brought great iniquity to the Zoramites through his actions, making it less likely for them to repent.

*** this is complete speculation on my part....but he could have very likely been married at the time.

And its "these things" that are an abomination to the Lord. Most sexual sins do not entail overt hypocrisy to follow a cult prostitute while pontificating our wisdom in the name of God, reducing the likelihood that several other people will not come unto God.  He blasphemed God, his call, his covenants, followed pride and lust, and harmed already tense relations with a people in sore need of repentance and the Gospel. Just as getting into an angry fist fight isn't the same as murdering, though the same underlying attitude is a problem. So this sin is not on the same level as 2 single people going too far. Not good....just not to that level of bad either.

That said sexual relationships, even between consenting adults, can have major impacts on God's children, the stability of their homes, and other's access to God. As shown in Corianton's actions and seen in other ways throughout our society. They have weighty effects on us that can change generations not just 2 people. We overgeneralize and overreact in some ways to certain sexual sins IMHO. But I think society at large can also underplay the cost that sexual sins can have as well.

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

[Duncan]

57 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The simple answer to all of the above is that these brethren didn't commit the sins that you are accusing them of. 

Either that or the church you're involved with in Canada is completely different than elsewhere.

well, babies don't appear out of nowhere......! and that guy well, he's pushing up daisies somewhere so God's problem now! But as to the rest I could on and on! I am not accusing them of anything, just saying what hit the fan and I know of other stuff in our stake that makes you wonder about

Edited August 10, 2016 by Duncan

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I struggle with that too. I had a Branch President who molested his daughter and his wife told their Bishop but got "oh, he wouldn't do that he's a good man" later he was my BP and even later than that he was in a Temple Presidency. He escaped church discipline and legal involvement. He was what you'd call smooth, my mom called him "greasy" but he's dead now so I guess God has to deal with him now, as we know the Mills of the God's exceedingly slow but exceedingly fine. In my pre-mission he was my BP and there was a guy who got home in May from his mission and we has AP. He was instantly called to be the EQ Pres. and I was his counselour as was another 18yr old. From May to about Oct. ish. he came to church about 6 times, we basically had to run the show. Anyways that guy got a recent convert pregnant and nothing happened to either of them. Her I could see but him? Apparently he was good enough to continue on as EQ Pres. but not good enough to get church discipline, I don't get that. The other counselour and I were like  feeling guilty and confessing all kinds of nonsense and that was worse then a pregnancy? For me it's stuff like this I only go to Bishops for stuff if it affects my standing in the Church.

Wow...I have heard of things like this and seen only some of it in a very small ward.  I can't begin to understand how all this works..because most of the time..it just doesn't.  They can be forgiven..but that is between them and the Lord..but there are so many long term consequences that need to part of justice.  I believe there are some bishops that should contact authorities..police..and don't.  I say this from a personal experience with my own mother

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

well, babies don't appear out of nowhere......! and that guy well, he's pushing up daisies somewhere so God's problem now! But as to the rest I could on and on! I am not accusing them of anything, just saying what hit the fan and I know of other stuff in our stake that makes you wonder about

Come to Zion Brother Duncan!

[smac97]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Lots of articles and blog posts on this over the years.  I think the typical orthodox Mormon reading of this scripture is shallow and unproductive.  Take a look if you're interested at these two well written articles and judge for yourself.

Dialogue Journal - Page 7 article by B. W. Jorgensen.  

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/issues/V32N01.pdf

Sunstone article by Michael Ash

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/143-34-43.pdf

Ash's thesis is fascinating (emphases added):

Quote

In noting a possible reinterpretation of Alma’s words, I don’t want to diminish the seriousness of sexual sins. Infidelity in marriage is one of the leading causes of divorce and the breakup of families. Adultery destroys trust, damages self-esteem, and is linked to domestic violence and suicide, as well as suicide attempts by children of divorced parents. Pre-marital sex often results in teen pregnancies, abortions, early marriages that frequently end in divorce, disease, single parenthood, and a host of other problems. Sexual sins are serious because they damage not only a person’s spiritual well-being but also because they generally damage others as well. I also don’t want to moderate the very serious nature of heinous sins—many of which are sexually related—such as rape, child molestation, torture, and so on.

However, when we examine Alma’s reprimand in light of the entire thirty-ninth chapter as well as in light of other scriptures, we discover that Alma’s admonition may be linked to another serious sin: causing the spiritual death of others.

...

It appears that Alma framed his argument thusly: Corianton is guilty of leaving his mission to chase a harlot (either literally and/or figuratively). This harlot has damaged many testimonies already, and Corianton’s actions have also led some of the people to destruction instead of to God. Among Corianton’s sins is one that ranks next to the shedding of innocent blood, which ranks second only to the unpardonable sin of willfully denying the Holy Ghost. Corianton’s grievous sin, for which forgiveness is still possible albeit difficult, is murdering “against light and knowledge.” To murder or shed innocent blood (the most serious of the pardonable sins) is to extinguish someone’s life. To murder against light and knowledge is, I believe, in Alma’s logic, to extinguish someone’s testimony.

If Ash is correct, then apostates who work to persuade others to abandon their covenants and turn away from the Restored Gospel are in some serious trouble.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

Just now, ksfisher said:

Come to Zion Brother Duncan!

I'm trying!!! I can't carry all this poutine and maple syrup by myself!!!! Peppermint Patty was supposed to hook me up with her niece or something, I think she got sidetracked with all that Chuck Norris mumbo jumbo 

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Good points.  Do you feel that it's an acceptable emphasis for a young man?

After I wrote, I realized I also have some knowledge of young men having the some of the same issues.  In their cases, the topics that made them feel so hopeless that repentance was difficult were more along the lines of overwhelming self loathing for their addictions to porn and masturbation issues.  I feel strongly that repentance and punishment mean the same thing to too many leaders.  Sometimes piling on has the opposite effect of what you want to have happen.  Bishops must use the spirit to determine what will help the person repent and not have a set course of action.  What can they do to help the person feel the love of the Savior and have a desire to keep the commandments?  It will not look the same for each person.  They also need to get help and call counselors or law enforcement when necessary.

Edited August 10, 2016 by bsjkki

[UtahTexan]

for the sake of argument....

Some of you are saying that sexual sins are wrong because they affect the creation of life....

So, are sexual sins as bad if one or more of the participants are incapable of having children?

[carbon dioxide]

3 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

for the sake of argument....

Some of you are saying that sexual sins are wrong because they affect the creation of life....

So, are sexual sins as bad if one or more of the participants are incapable of having children?

It goes beyond that.  If it simply an issue of having kids, one could be sterilized and then join a swingers group and it would not be a big deal.

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said:

It goes beyond that.  If it simply an issue of having kids, one could be sterilized and then join a swingers group and it would not be a big deal.

Not saying I disagree....just commenting on the posts regarding why sexual sins are bad.

[hope_for_things]

43 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Ash's thesis is fascinating (emphases added):

If Ash is correct, then apostates who work to persuade others to abandon their covenants and turn away from the Restored Gospel are in some serious trouble.

Thanks,

-Smac

Oh man!  I guess if we can't judge others harshly enough for sexual sins, we should find another thing to judge others harshly for.  Apostasy!  Yikes, what a culture we have.  

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I think that verse is heavily misapplied and we have a serious problem with overgeneralizing all forms of sexual sins as equal in weight and effect. When it's not. I think not going into details is what's perpetuating the problem and maintaining unnecessary shame. Not all sexual sins is second to murder.

Quote

Outside the bonds of marriage, all uses of the procreative power are to one degree or another a sinful degrading and perversion of the most divine attribute of men and women. The Book of Mormon teaches that unchastity is “most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost” (Alma 39:5). In our own day, the First Presidency of the Church has declared the doctrine of this Church “that sexual sin—the illicit sexual relations of men and women—stands, in its enormity, next to murder.” Dallin H. Oaks

 

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Oh man!  I guess if we can't judge others harshly enough for sexual sins, we should find another thing to judge others harshly for.  Apostasy!  Yikes, what a culture we have.  

Um, what?  Whom do you think I have judged?

If I say "theft is wrong," is that a "harsh judgment?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Um, what?  Whom do you think I have judged?

If I say "theft is wrong," is that a "harsh judgment?"

Thanks,

-Smac

No worries, I was making a joke about our quick to condemn culture.  Sometimes it doesn't translate in written form very well.  :-) :-0  Need more smiley faces next time! 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, CountryBoy said:

for the sake of argument....

Some of you are saying that sexual sins are wrong because they affect the creation of life....

So, are sexual sins as bad if one or more of the participants are incapable of having children?

To clarify, I think it's the usurping of God's authority that makes the issue so serious.  In my view it's a corruption of the creation process when it occurs outside of the bonds of marriage, regardless of whether or not children can be or are conceived.  

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

for the sake of argument....

Some of you are saying that sexual sins are wrong because they affect the creation of life....

So, are sexual sins as bad if one or more of the participants are incapable of having children?

Not because they affect the creation of life - infertility can do that.
But because they misuse the power given to create life.  Because they interfere with God's work and glory.
God gives us this power and responsibility and provides the bounds in which it is to be used.  By the same token, those that choose to operate outside these bounds will find that power and responsibility taken from them in the next life.  (D&C 132 etc).
 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

To clarify, I think it's the usurping of God's authority that makes the issue so serious.  In my view it's a corruption of the creation process when it occurs outside of the bonds of marriage, regardless of whether or not children can be or are conceived.

Perfectly stated as always. 

 

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

While it may be easier to wipe away uncomfortable truths as being a Canadian problem, I think it's more accurate to accept that crazy shenanigans, Bishop Roulette, and unjust discipline (or lack thereof) happen constantly around the world, including the US and even Utah. 

So either it does not happen or it is constant? Methinks I spy a false dichotomy.

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So either it does not happen or it is constant? Methinks I spy a false dichotomy.

I think it consistently happens, check out this experience shared by Elder Samuelson 

"At least two of you in attendance have mentioned to me the frustration that occurs when you have felt it necessary to deny a temple recommend to one of these young people only to see them a few weeks later in the temple with a recommend issued from another unit. This ought not to be. We know that you who work with this highly mobile group of young people carry a tremendous load. We also know, and hope you know as well, that we have policies and procedures established for our use that would not make such an unfortunate occurrence possible. Please make the necessary calls and follow the essential procedures to see that we avoid these kinds of errors. "https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-9-number-2-2008/holy-habits-and-righteous-routines

[HappyJackWagon]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So either it does not happen or it is constant? Methinks I spy a false dichotomy.

"Consistent" or "continually" may be a better words than "constant", however, when we consider the size of the church (35,000 ish wards?) I think it is reasonable to suggest that there is likely crazy shenanigans, Bishop Roulette, and unjust discipline occurring within the church, somewhere, most of the time.

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 8/10/2016 at 9:37 AM, smac97 said:

Sexually transmitted diseases?  

that can be avoided by using condoms and being responsible.

On 8/10/2016 at 9:37 AM, smac97 said:

Pornography (damage done to the consumer, the consumer's loved ones, and even the actors in it)?

Please show me peer-reviewed scientific evidence that pornography is harmful. 

On 8/10/2016 at 9:37 AM, smac97 said:

The Law of Chastity, if followed by God's children, would decimate or even eliminate many of today's more serious social issues.

but many can't get married, even the church says that. So what about them?

10 Surprising Health Benefits of Sex

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/sex-and-health