Does the LDS Church focus too much on sexual sins?

[Judd]

30 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Please show me peer-reviewed scientific evidence that pornography is harmful. 

http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459

[Guest]

The Church does not focus more than scriptures and all other Christian Faiths. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

On 8/10/2016 at 1:16 AM, waveslider said:

I think all sin is all bad. It all makes it impossible to again be in God's presence, unless we utilize the Atonement of Christ. So in that sense even the slightest sin is just as bad as murder. In the sense of making restitution things can be categorized in being lesser of more sever, since it is possible to repent and be forgiven.

The reason it is next to murder in severity is because of the repentance process we are asked to do. With murder it is impossible for us to make things right by having the victim still be alive, we just can't make that type of restitution. Similarly having a child outside of the bonds of a tight knit family makes it nearly impossible to fix the problems that the child is going to suffer as a result. In this way it is next to murder in severity, but not quite as bad because it is actually possible to form a tight knit family after the fact, but the odds of that being successful are very slim. Just my two cents worth anyway.

Not all sexual sin results in pregnancy.

[waveslider]

1 minute ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Not all sexual sin results in pregnancy.

I understand that, but it is the fact that this power to co-create life is allotted to us by God and the misuse of it often results in taking the chance that pregnancy can happen, or often leads up to that, whereas if it is controlled properly and only used in the way God has prescribed, even an unwanted pregnancy will end up in complete family unit, unless there is some kind of accidental death or something.

[Johnnie Cake]

The church is obsessed with sex.  It expresses this obsession by using sex in all of its various forms as a tool of manipulation, a means of imposing guilt and control on its members from the youngest through to its adult members. From imposing guilt and manipulation on young men who come in two varieties...those who confess to masturbation and are made to feel abnormal and guilty for doing so and those who masturbate but lie about it when asked by their adult priesthood authority and feel guilty for masturbating and for lying about doing so...all of which only intensifies the guilt and manipulative spiral.

But being an equal opportunity abuser they impose guilt and manipulation on the woman of the church as well by instilling guilt and objectification of the female body on young woman who are taught to hate their bodies, who are taught that the mere exposure of shoulders or midsection of their bodies to sinful.  The fanatical all consuming drum beat of modesty that is taught creates an unhealthy mental environment for the woman of the church. It starts as young as primary age and continues through life.

And then there's pornography... seriously what would the church do without porn?  Its become one of the greatest instruments of guilt and manipulation in their bag of tools.  It's used to guilt the men and boys who view it and its used to manipulate the woman who are taught that their husbands and boy friends are evil sex addictive perverts.  Every position taken by the church pushes to the extreme

And then there's the bedroom...yes even the bedroom wasn't a safe place for LDS married couples the church had to interject themselves and their manipulative guilt even there...by counseling married couples that even in a loving married relationship bedroom activities had boundaries. And I won't even mention the mixed messages married couple have to navigate regarding birth control...ok I just did.

Its all black and white thinking....extreme positions which lead to guilt, manipulation and unhealthy attitudes towards sex, body image and self worth.. Add to this the expectations of perfection imposed by the church and you've got one completely messed up group of sexually stagnated sexual pigmies.  Thank you LDS church.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The church is obsessed with sex.  It expresses this obsession by using sex in all of its various forms as a tool of manipulation, a means of imposing guilt and control on its members from the youngest through to its adult members. From imposing guilt and manipulation on young men who come in two varieties...those who confess to masturbation and are made to feel abnormal and guilty for doing so and those who masturbate but lie about it when asked by their adult priesthood authority and feel guilty for masturbating and for lying about doing so...all of which only intensifies the guilt and manipulative spiral.

But being an equal opportunity abuser they impose guilt and manipulation on the woman of the church as well by instilling guilt and objectification of the female body on young woman who are taught to hate their bodies, who are taught that the mere exposure of shoulders or midsection of their bodies to sinful.  The fanatical all consuming drum beat of modesty that is taught creates an unhealthy mental environment for the woman of the church. It starts as young as primary age and continues through life.

And then there's pornography... seriously what would the church do without porn?  Its become one of the greatest instruments of guilt and manipulation in their bag of tools.  It's used to guilt the men and boys who view it and its used to manipulate the woman who are taught that their husbands and boy friends are evil sex addictive perverts.  Every position taken by the church pushes to the extreme

And then there's the bedroom...yes even the bedroom wasn't a safe place for LDS married couples the church had to interject themselves and their manipulative guilt even there...by counseling married couples that even in a loving married relationship bedroom activities had boundaries. And I won't even mention the mixed messages married couple have to navigate regarding birth control...ok I just did.

Its all black and white thinking....extreme positions which lead to guilt, manipulation and unhealthy attitudes towards sex, body image and self worth.. Add to this the expectations of perfection imposed by the church and you've got one completely messed up group of sexually stagnated sexual pigmies.  Thank you LDS church.

I think sex comes up in lessons about once a year. It is like homosexuality. Not talked about much. Yet we are told we are obsessed with it. I think it is more likely that our critics are obsessed with our standards and fixate on those because they are their preferred sins.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Add to this the expectations of perfection imposed by the church and you've got one completely messed up group of sexually stagnated sexual pigmies.  Thank you LDS church.

Are you trying to insult the members of the church on this board?

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The church is obsessed with sex.  It expresses this obsession by using sex in all of its various forms as a tool of manipulation, a means of imposing guilt and control on its members from the youngest through to its adult members. From imposing guilt and manipulation on young men who come in two varieties...those who confess to masturbation and are made to feel abnormal and guilty for doing so and those who masturbate but lie about it when asked by their adult priesthood authority and feel guilty for masturbating and for lying about doing so...all of which only intensifies the guilt and manipulative spiral.

But being an equal opportunity abuser they impose guilt and manipulation on the woman of the church as well by instilling guilt and objectification of the female body on young woman who are taught to hate their bodies, who are taught that the mere exposure of shoulders or midsection of their bodies to sinful.  The fanatical all consuming drum beat of modesty that is taught creates an unhealthy mental environment for the woman of the church. It starts as young as primary age and continues through life.

And then there's pornography... seriously what would the church do without porn?  Its become one of the greatest instruments of guilt and manipulation in their bag of tools.  It's used to guilt the men and boys who view it and its used to manipulate the woman who are taught that their husbands and boy friends are evil sex addictive perverts.  Every position taken by the church pushes to the extreme

And then there's the bedroom...yes even the bedroom wasn't a safe place for LDS married couples the church had to interject themselves and their manipulative guilt even there...by counseling married couples that even in a loving married relationship bedroom activities had boundaries. And I won't even mention the mixed messages married couple have to navigate regarding birth control...ok I just did.

Its all black and white thinking....extreme positions which lead to guilt, manipulation and unhealthy attitudes towards sex, body image and self worth.. Add to this the expectations of perfection imposed by the church and you've got one completely messed up group of sexually stagnated sexual pigmies.  Thank you LDS church.

Gads, what a yawner.  This is the kind of tripe that you put a quarter in and away goes the recording.  Original thought? Not so much.  

Well, it was good for a laugh; good on ya. 

[Johnnie Cake]

kfisher: Are you trying to insult the members of the church on this board? ...that wasn't my intent...but in hindsight I could have chosen my words better...sorry my limited status does not allow me to edit

 

Storm Rider: Gads, what a yawner.  This is the kind of tripe that you put a quarter in and away goes the recording.  Original thought? Not so much.  

Well, it was good for a laugh; good on ya.  Happy to be able to entertain you Storm Rider

 

The Nehor:  I think sex comes up in lessons about once a year. It is like homosexuality. Not talked about much. Yet we are told we are obsessed with it. I think it is more likely that our critics are obsessed with our standards and fixate on those because they are their preferred sins. Yup sex is my preferred sin but as Joseph said "...What many people call sin is not sin." 

 

 

 

 

[ksfisher]

24 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

kfisher: Are you trying to insult the members of the church on this board? ...that wasn't my intent...but in hindsight I could have chosen my words better...sorry my limited status does not allow me to edit

And I wasn't trying to chew you out or anything.  I just think that we all need to watch ourselves and not make broad generalizations.  Especially those based on limited observation.

[Johnnie Cake]

ksfisher:  And I wasn't trying to chew you out or anything.  I just think that we all need to watch ourselves and not make broad generalizations.  Especially those based on limited observation. Feel free to chew me out any time you feel I've crossed a line...if I could, I would edit what I said...but alias...I can not

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The Nehor:  I think sex comes up in lessons about once a year. It is like homosexuality. Not talked about much. Yet we are told we are obsessed with it. I think it is more likely that our critics are obsessed with our standards and fixate on those because they are their preferred sins. Yup sex is my preferred sin but as Joseph said "...What many people call sin is not sin."

So you admit you are the one obsessed with our rules about sex? We share them and they fester inside you and you imagine we are obsessed because you cannot stop thinking about what we teach?

[jkwilliams]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Gads, what a yawner.  This is the kind of tripe that you put a quarter in and away goes the recording.  Original thought? Not so much.  

Well, it was good for a laugh; good on ya. 

Yours might be the most substance-free post of the day. I'm interested in why Johnnie Cake feels the way he does, which might tell us something. I understand you're not interested, and your snark is duly noted.

I don't know that the church focuses on sex excessively, but I would say that discussion of sex is overwhelmingly negative: what is not acceptable, what the consequences are, and so on. When I was growing up, there seemed to be a major reluctance to discuss anything in detail. I never understood what petting was or how it differed from "heavy petting," and I was too embarrassed to ask. I just knew we weren't supposed to do either. I learned about sexuality at school, at least in terms of specifics. I went into my marriage knowing very little about sex or female anatomy. Apparently, some wards now go the other way. My daughter tells me that, when she was a "Laurel," they had a YM/YW standards night, and when they split off into YM and YW groups, a member of the stake presidency discussed appropriate sexual behavior with the young women. My daughter said, "It was way too detailed, creepy, and gross," and she said she was a bit traumatized by the whole experience. Of course, she didn't tell us about that at all. 

I don't have some magic formula for what to teach and how, but if my experience is at all typical, we need to do a better job teaching sex in a positive way, emphasizing that it is a gift from Heavenly Father to help us strengthen love and intimacy in marriage rather than something so bad we don't do it and don't talk about it.

[Johnnie Cake]

The Nehor: So you admit you are the one obsessed with our rules about sex? We share them and they fester inside you and you imagine we are obsessed because you cannot stop thinking about what we teach?  I hope that is not what I agreed to

So let me be clear.  It is my view that the LDS church is obsessed with the sex lives of its membership.  It teaches abstinence until marriage and fidelity after marriage...all of which are noble standards...but when or if a member fails to met this standard, the church uses guilt and manipulation to further abuse and manipulate the so called sinner into compliance.  Youth interviews? TR interviews, modesty lessons and standards are all used to manipulate the members to a cultural standard of conformity...and should a member again fail to meet the cultural standards then kattie bar the door...cuz then the holier than thou judgementalist do their behind the scenes gossip vines.

Take a recent Bishops wife whom I am familiar with who while on vacation chose to wear a sleeveless sundress and had the courage to post a picture of her wearing it along with her family.  From the comments to her FB page one would have thought she had committed adultery.  Everyone seemed to have an opinion of how inappropriate it was for her to wear a sleeveless dress in public etc etc etc  Seriously Only within Mormonism is what a person wears everyone else's business.

The culture is so prevalent in its insistence of conformity...here in Utah many LDS high school girls are afraid to wear strapless or backless prom dresses...despite wanting to

Boys and girls even those 1 day away from their 16th birthday refuse to go to school dances so as not to break the no dating before 16 expectations

Bishops probe the youth in their wards for their most intimate private activities...and yes many choose to lie rather than admit failure to their bishop ( trust me I know I use to conduct these church mandated interviews...something I deeply regret having done) masturbation and pornography being the most common form of failure among youth and adults alike.

 

Sex is always percolating just below the surface of Mormonism although it is framed behind many masks

 

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[waveslider]

I'm personally blown away by all the rationalizations as to where to draw the line on sexually deviant behaviors, as outlined in Christ's church. Perhaps a better barometer would be for us to think of Christ's mortal life, as the only sinless person, a master over all his fleshly desires. Could we visualize Him checking out porn, or masturbating? It feels like blasphemy just writing that question down. It turns my stomach to even think about this subject and our Savior. Since He is the one running His church through revelation, why is it so hard to see that these perversions of procreation are frowned upon, since we are supposed to learn how to control all of our desires (not just cherry picking some desires, while letting others go wild, no matter how much it is rationalized away as being good for us), instead of allowing the desires to control us.

Have we ever wondered why fasting is something we are supposed to do in this church, on a regular basis? Those desires to eat are probably the strongest desires we can have. Desires to eat, and drink water, certainly are healthy for us, because if we stop doing these things for too long we will die in just a matter of days. The thing is, is that we are told by the Savior himself that it is better for us to fast every so often, and pray along with it. Prayer alone sometimes isn't as strong as fasting along with prayer is.

I personally don't think the Church obsess over sexual sin too much, and honestly think that it allows us the discretion of the details of it ourselves, in light of our own personal relationship to God. Generally speaking if the Holy Spirit leaves you because of how you view and sinful act, sexual or not, it is telling you that it isn't good, which falls in line with the church's teachings.

[waveslider]

24 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The Nehor: So you admit you are the one obsessed with our rules about sex? We share them and they fester inside you and you imagine we are obsessed because you cannot stop thinking about what we teach?  I hope that is not what I agreed to

So let me be clear.  It is my view that the LDS church is obsessed with the sex lives of its membership.  It teaches abstinence until marriage and fidelity after marriage...all of which are noble standards...but when or if a member fails to met this standard, the church uses guilt and manipulation to further abuse and manipulate the so called sinner into compliance.  Youth interviews? TR interviews, modesty lessons and standards are all used to manipulate the members to a cultural standard of conformity...and should a member again fail to meet the cultural standards then kattie bar the door...cuz then the holier than thou judgementalist do their behind the scenes gossip vines.

Take a recent Bishops wife whom I am familiar with who while on vacation chose to wear a sleeveless sundress and had the courage to post a picture of her wearing it along with her family.  From the comments to her FB page one would have thought she had committed adultery.  Everyone seemed to have an opinion of how inappropriate it was for her to wear a sleeveless dress in public etc etc etc  Seriously Only within Mormonism is what a person wears everyone else's business.

The culture is so prevalent in its insistence of conformity...here in Utah many LDS high school girls are afraid to wear strapless or backless prom dresses...despite wanting to

Boys and girls even those 1 day away from their 16th birthday refuse to go to school dances so as not to break the no dating before 16 expectations

Bishops probe the youth in their wards for their most intimate private activities...and yes many choose to lie rather than admit failure to their bishop ( trust me I know I use to conduct these church mandated interviews...something I deeply regret having done) masturbation and pornography being the most common form of failure among youth and adults alike.

 

Sex is always percolating just below the surface of Mormonism although it is framed behind many masks

 

 

It seems you have the culture of Mormonism mixed up with the church's views. The examples you have given are a cultural/regional thing. I see people from time to time show up to church in my ward, completely out of standard, and the reaction by the ward members...... "Hello, were glad you came today." Not, "you shouldn't be wearing this or that." I have watched many of those people, become active because of all the love/aloha they feel in this accepting attitude. I have watched them, on their own accord start to wear more modest clothing, without any sort of guilt trip on their own. We still teach the the church standards in our ward, but our culture here is different and we lack the issues that you seem to think are church issues. IMO they are cultural issues.

[Johnnie Cake]

Waveslider: It seems you have the culture of Mormonism mixed up with the church's views. The examples you have given are a cultural/regional thing. I see people from time to time show up to church in my ward, completely out of standard, and the reaction by the ward members...... "Hello, were glad you came today." Not, "you shouldn't be wearing this or that." I have watched many of those people, become active because of all the love/aloha they feel in this accepting attitude. I have watched them, on their own accord start to wear more modest clothing, without any sort of guilt trip on their own. We still teach the the church standards in our ward, but our culture here is different and we lack the issues that you seem to think are church issues. IMO they are cultural issues.

 

I've attended church in Hawaii and I would tend to agree...one of the most pleasant, enjoyable LDS sacrament meeting experiences of my life were those attended in Hawaii

[waveslider]

58 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Waveslider: It seems you have the culture of Mormonism mixed up with the church's views. The examples you have given are a cultural/regional thing. I see people from time to time show up to church in my ward, completely out of standard, and the reaction by the ward members...... "Hello, were glad you came today." Not, "you shouldn't be wearing this or that." I have watched many of those people, become active because of all the love/aloha they feel in this accepting attitude. I have watched them, on their own accord start to wear more modest clothing, without any sort of guilt trip on their own. We still teach the the church standards in our ward, but our culture here is different and we lack the issues that you seem to think are church issues. IMO they are cultural issues.

 

I've attended church in Hawaii and I would tend to agree...one of the most pleasant, enjoyable LDS sacrament meeting experiences of my life were those attended in Hawaii

It sure would be a pleasure to have you come and visit my ward. I'm sure we would have some pretty good conversations as well. You're always welcome to visit the Waialua ward anytime!

[MorningStar]

The church emphasizes the negative consequences of sexual sin, pornography, etc. because it is ruining families.  At least two couples in my ward are getting divorced because of porn.  It's not that the wives immediately and suddenly decided to get divorced.  They patiently tried to help their husbands, went to therapy, etc., but their behavior was just too damaging.  One of my friends - her husband wouldn't respect her boundaries when she said no.  She first tried having a separate bedroom with a lock for months, but he just wasn't getting how wrong his behavior was.  He felt entitled.  After she asked him to move out, he came back one day saying it was his house too, so she "drove her mom back to Utah", but never came back.  It had gotten to the point that if she was asleep and one of her kids' touched her, she unintentionally punched one of them thinking it was him again.   

The other husband recently committed adultery after years of struggling with pornography.  His wife is an amazing woman who looks like a model and has been in movies.  Their first child just got married and he couldn't attend the sealing.  Both families are absolutely beautiful, but both men didn't listen to the counsel to avoid pornography and now their wives and children have to suffer. 

Pornography warps people's minds.  That's not a popular opinion, but I've seen it with my own loved ones and how it affects their personalities.  It sucks.  On top of that, it's totally degrading to everyone involved. 

[thatjimguy]

On 8/16/2016 at 1:43 PM, The Nehor said:

So you admit you are the one obsessed with our rules about sex? We share them and they fester inside you and you imagine we are obsessed because you cannot stop thinking about what we teach?

That's a lame response.  About as bad as "those who leave the church cant leave it alone"

I can remember feeling the same way about not what we teach, but the way we teach it.

[thatjimguy]

You know many of you are rationalizing against Johnnie's outlook by saying that the end justify the means or talking about what we believe on the subject.

I do not think Johnnie argument would be about our beliefs, as much as they way we carry it out.

Other churches believe the exact same thing as we do, yet they do not approach it the same way at all with it's members. It's not like we are alone in the universe on the subject.

 

 

[Judd]

4 hours ago, MorningStar said:

The church emphasizes the negative consequences of sexual sin, pornography, etc. because it is ruining families.  At least two couples in my ward are getting divorced because of porn.  It's not that the wives immediately and suddenly decided to get divorced.  They patiently tried to help their husbands, went to therapy, etc., but their behavior was just too damaging.  One of my friends - her husband wouldn't respect her boundaries when she said no.  She first tried having a separate bedroom with a lock for months, but he just wasn't getting how wrong his behavior was.  He felt entitled.  After she asked him to move out, he came back one day saying it was his house too, so she "drove her mom back to Utah", but never came back.  It had gotten to the point that if she was asleep and one of her kids' touched her, she unintentionally punched one of them thinking it was him again.   

The other husband recently committed adultery after years of struggling with pornography.  His wife is an amazing woman who looks like a model and has been in movies.  Their first child just got married and he couldn't attend the sealing.  Both families are absolutely beautiful, but both men didn't listen to the counsel to avoid pornography and now their wives and children have to suffer. 

Pornography warps people's minds.  That's not a popular opinion, but I've seen it with my own loved ones and how it affects their personalities.  It sucks.  On top of that, it's totally degrading to everyone involved. 

I'd imagine the common retort would be about the unnecessary guilt and shame inflicted by church teachings that contributed largely in the above individuals acting the way they did and that, without such out-of-step standards, we could prevent such damage to families.

 

Presumably, as per above, an an expert has spoken on pornography perhaps even being helpful. Only experts may be entitled to unsubstantiated opinions that the rest of society is not.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Judd

[Storm Rider]

In a society, a world society, where sex is used to sell everything from lip stick, clothing, to trucks I find it odd that anyone would criticize any religion for taking a stand against premarital sex and maintains a distinct position between what is and what is not acceptable in human sexuality.  

Question - do you really think that sex would be an issue if society and all forms of the media were not so constantly influencing individuals that any form, ANY FORM, of sexuality is good, healthy, and should be explored to its absolute maximum.  We are a society of instant gratification and only instant gratification is an acceptable position from institutional investments to eating.  It is not about having sex it is about having sex sooner, more often, with more people, in more ways, and constantly.  If you don't tow this sexual position then you are a prude, repressive, and sick.  

Now, tell me again exactly who is emphasizing sex more than others?

[thatjimguy]

5 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

In a society, a world society, where sex is used to sell everything from lip stick, clothing, to trucks I find it odd that anyone would criticize any religion for taking a stand against premarital sex and maintains a distinct position between what is and what is not acceptable in human sexuality.  

Question - do you really think that sex would be an issue if society and all forms of the media were not so constantly influencing individuals that any form, ANY FORM, of sexuality is good, healthy, and should be explored to its absolute maximum.  We are a society of instant gratification and only instant gratification is an acceptable position from institutional investments to eating.  It is not about having sex it is about having sex sooner, more often, with more people, in more ways, and constantly.  If you don't tow this sexual position then you are a prude, repressive, and sick.  

Now, tell me again exactly who is emphasizing sex more than others?

Have you ever heard the idea behind why so many kids used to smoke?

Because they were pushed to the extreme about not smoking.

Is it possible to promote what we promote without going overboard? I mean, look at your example. It's the polar opposite of everything that has been promoted, present or past, in the church.

 

 

It is not about having sex it is about having sex sooner,                ---                 Only in marriage with a another worthy member with a TR

more often, ...   and constantly.                                                      ---                  Only for procreation    

with more people,                                                                           ---                 With one person for the rest of your life             

in more ways,                                                                                 ---                 Only in one position, everything else is an abomination

if you dont tow this position, you are a prude                                 ---                 If you dont tow this position, you are unworthy

 

Extreme begets extreme

 

 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, thatjimguy said:

Have you ever heard the idea behind why so many kids used to smoke?

Because they were pushed to the extreme about not smoking.

Is it possible to promote what we promote without going overboard? I mean, look at your example. It's the polar opposite of everything that has been promoted, present or past, in the church.

It is not about having sex it is about having sex sooner,                ---                 Only in marriage with a another worthy member with a TR

more often, ...   and constantly.                                                      ---                  Only for procreation    

with more people,                                                                           ---                 With one person for the rest of your life             

in more ways,                                                                                 ---                 Only in one position, everything else is an abomination

if you dont tow this position, you are a prude                                 ---                 If you dont tow this position, you are unworthy

Extreme begets extreme

 

 

Jim, when were you ever told only for procreation in the Church?  That concept is totally foreign to Church teaching and I have never heard it, ever, in any ward I have been in  and I have traveled extensively during my life.

Never have I heard any recommendation or discussion about what position one may or should have sexual relations in Church at any time, ever.

Yeah, not so much.  I am getting the distinct impression you are not talking about the Church, but about wild exaggerations found in comedy skits about Catholic teachings.  

Nope, not buying this load of philosophical snake oil you are selling and it has nothing to do with the LDS Church, its teachings, or even the manner it which it teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ.  

That unworthiness line is the plea of a narcissist and a hedonist.  I must be able to do anything I want, when I want, for as long as I want and no one should ever dare to tell me I am wrong.  Gads, this is really low level logic going on here.